The Ayton Plan

[AzStevenCal]

You see that's not how it sounded to me. It sounded to me like well they never offered ANY MAX at all. So that's another reason there was not a negotiation. There are definitely two sides to this. Why deny it out of Ayton's camp unless the intention was to point out the Suns were not willing to do any max at all. Doesn't make much sense either.

It did to me too, but I don't believe what I suggested would qualify as an offer to either side. And there's also the comment from Duffy's group that Jones never mentioned any kind of max contract even informally. But I'd trust Jones over any agent, especially an agent that apparently leaked negotiations anonymously.

 

[Hoop Head]

Ayton's team is trying to control the narrative just like the Suns are. Their job is to make Ayton happy and represent him while the Suns need to deal with all players. It's apparent the Suns struck 7 other deals this summer (Paul, Payne, Shamet, Bridges, McGee, Nader, Frank, and Payton). Not a peep from those sides about misrepresenting intentions, being deceptive, or not willing to negotiate. Ayton's camp is the only one that had difficulties and didn't get what they were after.

Choose who you want to believe. That's everyone's own decision, but I'm leaning towards believing the side that managed to please literally everyone else. It's not like James Jones and Sarver aren't disappointed that Ayton wasn't extended. They wanted it to happen also and it didn't work out.

Two sides of the story have come out. James Jones version of events doesn't contradict Ayton's side in the same manner Ayton's side does the Suns. The Suns could have countered the 5 year max demand with 3 or 4 years and been told it's 5 or nothing. Meanwhile Ayton's side said they wanted 5 and were only accepting 5 years max so why do they care if a 3-4 year offer was made? Both sides admit Ayton wanted 5 years max or nothing also.

I'm not sure what is gained by lying about lesser deals other than controlling the narrative. It'll be obvious the Suns don't want him for a 4 year max if they don't match next offseason so it'll catch up to them if they're lying. There's no way to say Ayton's side is lying though outside there of Ayton firing them, which is unlikely unless he would have taken the 4 year deal. So we won't get answers beyond what is available now.

 

[1tinsoldier]

3 thoughts:
* Ayton did not establish that he was worth the gamble of locking the team up for 5 years of max money.
* Ayton had motivation issues for 3 regular seasons, and his stepping up in the playoffs reinforces the theory that he needs incentive. THIS year is probably our best chance at getting back to the Finals for God knows how long. We'll probably get more out of him this year with him hungry and out to prove himself.
* Ayton is still child-like in ways. CP3 is his mentor and father figure, and he's our ace in the hole in regards to re-signing Ayton.

 

[Mainstreet]

Unless Ayton gets comfortable with the contract situation, I think he gets traded by the trade deadline.

John Collins learned to live with it. It remains to be seen if Ayton can.

Both sides benefit if it can be pushed into the background until next summer.

 

[Covert Rain]

Let the season long trade speculation begin.

Boston Celtics: A Deandre Ayton blockbuster trade Cs must consider

Today, we at HH discuss a blockbuster trade that would send the reportedly unhappy Phoenix Suns big man, Deandre Ayton, to the Boston Celtics.

hardwoodhoudini.com

 

[Hoop Head]

3 thoughts:
* Ayton did not establish that he was worth the gamble of locking the team up for 5 years of max money.
* Ayton had motivation issues for 3 regular seasons, and his stepping up in the playoffs reinforces the theory that he needs incentive. THIS year is probably our best chance at getting back to the Finals for God knows how long. We'll probably get more out of him this year with him hungry and out to prove himself.
* Ayton is still child-like in ways. CP3 is his mentor and father figure, and he's our ace in the hole in regards to re-signing Ayton.

Degrees may vary some but I am genuinely surprised that I agree with you for the most part.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Again, it's not a matter of could it happen but would it happen. Look at all the trades that go down by teams in a given season. This is likely what 5% of the total trades where a team ends up with a star max player?!?! Less?!?! Coming up with a plausible scenario is not the same thing as a likely one.

Considering it seems like there’s at least one per year I’d say being one of the few teams that can do it within the rules and have pieces that would be attractive, while still being a competitor is a pretty enviable position.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't think it's been brought up but it's going to be hard to beat out OKC if a star become available (they covet) using no more than a mediocre trade package. I've lost count of the number of first round picks they have, maybe 16-17.

Most likely if the Suns trade for another star it's going to need to include Ayton unless a player like Bridges blossoms into a star in his own right this season.

Ayton can be bundled with other players (which has already been discussed) in a trade for a player like Karl-Anthony Towns.

Yeah no. Most stars have some say about where they end up. And a slew of picks alone isn’t usually enough to entice a team to give up a star. They have to get a few legit players in exchange. And rarely is it star for star. It’s almost always a package. And Bridges fits squarely as a potentially centerpiece in such a package, as cam Johnson fits as a nice additional rotation/potential starter and shamet/more developed stix is the nice potential third to go with a couple first round picks.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

it's pretty ridiculous. Did we see any team previously do this while building their team with two young potential superstars or guys that would definitely get the MAX on the open market? Tell one of them "well, it's not that you're not MAX worthy, we think you are, but we want you on a shorter deal so we can get a better MAX worthy guy on a better contract possibly later".


Sorry, but a 3 and D great role player like Bridges isn’t going to be enough of a centerpiece of a trade for a Ja Morant/Trey Young type. And yes, I think it’s ridiculous to even bring those guys up at this point or anyone approaching that obvious MEGASTARDOM. Those are legit franchise guys.

You’re wrong. If a horny can be the center piece with a Lang and perry for a HOFer like Barkley in today’s nba an improving Bridges absolutely can be the centerpiece for such a trade.

 

[Hoop Head]

Let the season long trade speculation begin.

Boston Celtics: A Deandre Ayton blockbuster trade Cs must consider

Today, we at HH discuss a blockbuster trade that would send the reportedly unhappy Phoenix Suns big man, Deandre Ayton, to the Boston Celtics.

hardwoodhoudini.com

Robert Williams, Josh Richardson and a top 20 protected first in 2023 for Ayton? I know Williams is a fan favorite but thats a terrible deal for the Suns. There's nothing attractive about that package, at all.

The pick is garbage and Josh Richardson would be behind Cam J and Shamet in the wing rotation. Williams is a 6'8" PF who wouldn't cut it in the West as a Center but he has no range or offensive game to play PF.

 

[Mainstreet]

Yeah no. Most stars have some say about where they end up. And a slew of picks alone isn’t usually enough to entice a team to give up a star. They have to get a few legit players in exchange. And rarely is it star for star. It’s almost always a package. And Bridges fits squarely as a potentially centerpiece in such a package, as cam Johnson fits as a nice additional rotation/potential starter and shamet/more developed stix is the nice potential third to go with a couple first round picks.

We agree it would likely take a package trade to trade for a star and the star has a lot of say where he goes.

Specifics need to be involved to properly discuss it.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Robert Williams, Josh Richardson and a top 20 protected first in 2023 for Ayton? I know Williams is a fan favorite but thats a terrible deal for the Suns. There's nothing attractive about that package, at all.

The pick is garbage and Josh Richardson would be behind Cam J and Shamet in the wing rotation. Williams is a 6'8" PF who wouldn't cut it in the West as a Center but he has no range or offensive game to play PF.

Change that to an unprotected pick, replace JR with someone of value and I would have had interest until I read up on RW's medical history just now. I don't like those knees, so no way. Even healthy though, it's only worth considering if we've reached the point where we know we have to trade him.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

According to Ayton's camp they did not offer a max PERIOD. The Suns better be careful about talking about this. It's just going to piss the Ayton camp off even more.

Here’s where I come out on the he said/she said:

If it was Sarver saying the autin camp was 5-year max or nothing I’d call him a liar. But I don’t think jones is a liar and he’s saying it. And I’m sorry I don’t believe agents and entourages and Ayton’s already talked outta his arse and been suspend so I don’t put a great deal of faith in anything coming outta his camp.

So at the end of the day I think I believe jones.

Really it sounds to me like Ayton’s camp handled this awfully if they really said 5-year max or nothing.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Do we know if the Suns were willing to do any max at all? Sounds like the answer was no. To come down from a 5 year max is one thing. To come down to ZERO years at MAX would be a hard pill to swallow. As I stated sounds like there were two sides to this. Maybe both were to blame for the talks breaking down?!?!?

Yeah but if the 5 year max only was real, as jones claims, there never could be any other negotiations. Sorry if that’s the stance Ayton’s party took - and we haven’t heard them deny it, have we - that’s a disaster for him.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ayton's team is trying to control the narrative just like the Suns are. Their job is to make Ayton happy and represent him while the Suns need to deal with all players. It's apparent the Suns struck 7 other deals this summer (Paul, Payne, Shamet, Bridges, McGee, Nader, Frank, and Payton). Not a peep from those sides about misrepresenting intentions, being deceptive, or not willing to negotiate. Ayton's camp is the only one that had difficulties and didn't get what they were after.

Choose who you want to believe. That's everyone's own decision, but I'm leaning towards believing the side that managed to please literally everyone else. It's not like James Jones and Sarver aren't disappointed that Ayton wasn't extended. They wanted it to happen also and it didn't work out.

Two sides of the story have come out. James Jones version of events doesn't contradict Ayton's side in the same manner Ayton's side does the Suns. The Suns could have countered the 5 year max demand with 3 or 4 years and been told it's 5 or nothing. Meanwhile Ayton's side said they wanted 5 and were only accepting 5 years max so why do they care if a 3-4 year offer was made? Both sides admit Ayton wanted 5 years max or nothing also.

I'm not sure what is gained by lying about lesser deals other than controlling the narrative. It'll be obvious the Suns don't want him for a 4 year max if they don't match next offseason so it'll catch up to them if they're lying. There's no way to say Ayton's side is lying though outside there of Ayton firing them, which is unlikely unless he would have taken the 4 year deal. So we won't get answers beyond what is available now.

Yeah the circumstantial evidences points to Ayton’s squad being the issue. Too many other successful negotiations to ignore.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Let the season long trade speculation begin.

Boston Celtics: A Deandre Ayton blockbuster trade Cs must consider

Today, we at HH discuss a blockbuster trade that would send the reportedly unhappy Phoenix Suns big man, Deandre Ayton, to the Boston Celtics.

hardwoodhoudini.com

Yeah blech no.

 

[GatorAZ]

I have a hard time believing Ayton’s camp had no interest in a 4-year max from the Suns considering it’s more money than the 4-year max offer-sheet he’d sign in RFA. My guess is the Suns didn’t offer it but that’s just my opinion.

 

[Covert Rain]

Considering it seems like there’s at least one per year I’d say being one of the few teams that can do it within the rules and have pieces that would be attractive, while still being a competitor is a pretty enviable position.

One per year is the very definition of the odds being a against you if there are 31 teams competing.

 

[Covert Rain]

I

Yeah but if the 5 year max only was real, as jones claims, there never could be any other negotiations. Sorry if that’s the stance Ayton’s party took - and we haven’t heard them deny it, have we - that’s a disaster for him.

You really think no counter offer would be listened to?!? If it was offered that exactly what agents want so they can negotiate. It’s negotiating 101. Likely the Suns offered no max at all. That likely killed the talks.

You start with max as an agent and go from there. No agent would have done anything different. The Suns then comeback and say nope not doing a 5 year max. In fact, are not willing to do any max for any years. It must be less. Talks dead.

 

[Hoop Head]

I

You really think no counter offer was made?!? I have a bridge to sell you. That alone should tell you the Suns are likely at fault or at the very least partially at fault.

It seems like you believe no counter was made. James Jones said they tried discussing a 3 or 4 year deal and were shut down by Ayton's team because Ayton's team made it clear they would not accept anything less than 5 years.

You're arguing semantics now. Ayton's side said no FORMAL offer was made and James Jones statement doesn't refute that. What's the point of making a formal offer you know will be declined? If they would have taken a 3 or 4 year deal then they did a terrible job of relaying that info to the Suns.

I thought we were past this.

 

[Covert Rain]

It seems like you believe no counter was made. James Jones said they tried discussing a 3 or 4 year deal and were shut down by Ayton's team because Ayton's team made it clear they would not accept anything less than 5 years.

You're arguing semantics now. Ayton's side said no FORMAL offer was made and James Jones statement doesn't refute that. What's the point of making a formal offer you know will be declined? If they would have taken a 3 or 4 year deal then they did a terrible job of relaying that info to the Suns.

I thought we were past this.

I have no clue. Ayton’s camp says it didn’t happen. You seem to think otherwise. Now you are saying “formal”. Who is playing semantics?!?

Past what? Did you settle something the rest of us were just supposed to run with?!?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Eh... maybe I won’t be mad at the end of this season.

 

[Hoop Head]

I have no clue. Ayton’s camp says it didn’t happen. You seem to think otherwise. Now you are saying “formal”. Who is playing semantics?!?

Past what? Did you settle something the rest of us were just supposed to run with?!?

Honestly it seems like you either don't get it or just want to argue. I'm not sure but I'm done trying to discuss this with you because you're literally going in circles.

 

[Covert Rain]

Honestly it seems like you either don't get it or just want to argue. I'm not sure but I'm done trying to discuss this with you because you're literally going in circles.

So I ask again. You have spoken so your take should just be accepted?! Nobody can disagree? It can’t possibly be anything other than what you say.

Feel free to stop responding.

 

[gimpy]

^^ Hey, maybe that's what happened with the negotiations? ^^