The Ayton Plan

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This again can be disproven with just stats.

Turnovers
Ayton 1.6
Bam 2.6
Embiid 3.1
Gobert 1.8
KAT 3.1

He doesn’t turn it over anymore or any less. Guys keep looking for these perfect players that don’t exist it goes back to an unrealistic standard. Turns the ball over 1.6 times and a game and he’s a bumbling turnover machine but in reality it’s pretty damn good for someone with his usage rate

This is where stats lie. When Ayton fails to catch a pass the turnover is awarded to the passer. But as we all know it’s usually (not always) due to Ayton’s hands or failure to effectively screen out a defender. You’re not talking to casual basketball fans here. You’re talking to people that watch virtually every minute he’s on the floor.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That’s not the offense we play.

First thing Ayton or any of our centers do is run up to the three point line to set a screen for the ball handler.

Then it’s up the ball handler to penetrate.

This is where I have a problem with Monty. It’s a lack of diversity and way to Paul dependent. This year you have to make Booker and Ayton your playmakers 1 & 2 Paul isn’t that guy anymore

I agree 100% with this post.

 

[Chaplin]

I tend to agree with Finito, although I think it is incredibly obvious that Ayton does not like being called for fouls.

And I don't see why CP3 can't be your number 3 whose primary goal is playmaking. What the Suns need is someone else besides Book (and CP3) to be able to show up in the 4th quarter. Can that be Ayton? The problem is that we don't really know.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think part of that is mentality. He plays small sometimes. For example, there were several times during the Pelican series or when someone smaller was on him (i.e. Luka), he instead of backing them down and acting his size he passed the ball out. It was infuriating. Luka was a horrible defender during that series and Ayton didn't challenge him multiple times.

He’s LaMarcus Aldridge in David Robinson’s body.

He could get stronger but it might affect his agility. As great as Embiid/Jokic are they’re so big it just looks like they’re lumbering down the court and exhausted by the finish.

Unless he develops a more aggressive mentality or he learns to create his own shots a lot of fans are going to remain unhappy with what Ayton brings to the table unless he is surrounded by more playmakers.

 

[Big Al]

I don't think so. I think adding those guys and retaining a couple cheap rotation quality front court guys, like McGee, Kamansky and/or Biz... I think that team would, once again, be in the running for a very high seed in the west. They would also have the ammo, through draft picks and players, to swing for a major star if one became available.

Something went wrong in that locker room during the Mavs series, I've been an Ayton backer but... him not capitalizing on the trash the Mavs were throwing at him on defense was inexcusable, our guards are getting double teamed, every freaking play, and Ayton isn't sealing out guys, he isn't making himself available deep... basically all he did was set weak screens. If we could get a return that huge for him, that keeps us in contention now and makes us a stronger contender in the future, that would be impossible to pass up on.

Ayton, at the peak we've seen him play, is a better player than anything we can get in return, we just don't see that guy enough.

How about that trade rumor of Ayton to the Pellicans for Jonas, Larry Nance Jr., Devonte Graham, and the 8th pick in the 2022 draft? Maybe Ayton fire could get lit up under coach Green. But I think Ayton needs a tough hard-nosed demanding coach. But that trade would hamper the Pellicans because Zion contract would come up and he will want greedy money too. So Zion, Ayton, and Igram would absorb most the team's salary then you have to call on guys like Frank Kaminsky to fill out the roster. Today players are so greedy but the money from TV, endorsments, sports clothing sales, & tickets makes it all possible but Salary Caps hinder it . I don't want to see Ayton in Atlanta pairing with Trae & John Collins while the Suns are settling with Clint Capela's 47% free throw shooting although he can protect the rim & rebound at 6-10. I don't know if it would work or even if the Pellicans would do this one anyways but here it is Ayton, Dario, & Payne or Shampet to Pellicans for Jonas, Zion, 8th pick in this draft. I'm being really unrealistic right? OK case closed.

 

[95pro]

This is where stats lie. When Ayton fails to catch a pass the turnover is awarded to the passer. But as we all know it’s usually (not always) due to Ayton’s hands or failure to effectively screen out a defender. You’re not talking to casual basketball fans here. You’re talking to people that watch virtually every minute he’s on the floor.

Same can be said about his fantastic % on shooting.

His % is high but his attempts are low because

1. He passed out of a dunk 2ft uncovered
2. Passed out of a 4 footer with a way smaller defender on him
3. Didn't catch it clean, fumbled but didn't turn it over, but still passed the ball out

Those don't show up as turnovers or a missed shot.

 

[Big Al]

I don't think so. I think adding those guys and retaining a couple cheap rotation quality front court guys, like McGee, Kamansky and/or Biz... I think that team would, once again, be in the running for a very high seed in the west. They would also have the ammo, through draft picks and players, to swing for a major star if one became available.

Something went wrong in that locker room during the Mavs series, I've been an Ayton backer but... him not capitalizing on the trash the Mavs were throwing at him on defense was inexcusable, our guards are getting double teamed, every freaking play, and Ayton isn't sealing out guys, he isn't making himself available deep... basically all he did was set weak screens. If we could get a return that huge for him, that keeps us in contention now and makes us a stronger contender in the future, that would be impossible to pass up on.

Ayton, at the peak we've seen him play, is a better player than anything we can get in return, we just don't see that guy enough.

Yup so true. But I don't want to see Kaminsky in a Suns uniform ever again he's way too flawed. To suit up Frank Kaminsky & pay him is simply a handout to apart time effective jump shooter who brings nothing else. Warriors 6-8 center Looney shined against Mavericks and Ayton should have excelled against the Maverick's centers & team. Suns can't pay the Max for a part time motivated player so wake up Ayton sign the contract and bring it every night like Luka attempts to do and other Max players do. There is responsibility if only he understood it.

 

[Big Al]

It isn't that simple but yeah, that's part of it. His shots are assisted because he doesn't force anything, he takes "his" shot and nothing more. He rarely puts it on the floor and drives so he's not picking up the occasional charge and he isn't using up the shot clock to no advantage as so many bigs do.

I really hate to defend his offense because there are real problems there, I just don't see being assisted at a high rate as one of them.

Earlier in his career we tried to run the offense through him more often and his propensity to fumble the pass leading to an occasional turnover or more often, forcing a reset of the offense after wasting precious seconds was a real problem.

Plus, one of the advantages of running your offense through a talented big man down low (at the expense of the highly favored 3 point shot) is the expectation that the defense will suffer from extra fouls and forced double teams. We get very little of that from DA. But I don't believe we've ever really worked on this.

We accept we're a guard based offense and after giving him a few passes at the start of the game, we forget all about him. It's not because all of a sudden every single team figured out 4 minutes into the game how to guard him either, it's a decision on Monty or CP's part.

And maybe this is the best way to play given the strength of our guards but it's contributing to the likelihood that we will part ways with one of the most gifted players we've ever had. I expect that if we lose him, his next team will force him to become the power inside that he is capable of becoming and we'll go back to complaining about our inability to get a quality big man.

CP won't be here forever, if his presence is contributing to our DA issues that's just one more reason to be patient with Ayton and give him his money. CP won't be here much longer, DA has a chance to be a fixture for us.

I rather replace Paul than Ayton. It sounds like Monty had issues with both. Ayton 23

 

[Covert Rain]

I rather replace Paul than Ayton. It sounds like Monty had issues with both. Ayton 23

My initial reaction is to agree with you but then I witnessed the total transformation of this team including Booker when paired with a real PG. I wouldn't object to moving Paul but getting a legit PG on this team in return would be critical and still wouldn't solve having a legit back PG behind that person.

 

[Muggz]

I rather replace Paul than Ayton. It sounds like Monty had issues with both. Ayton 23

I would too. Paul and whatever else it takes for Dame.
Then we can MAKE Dame play Center and lose him mid season.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I rather replace Paul than Ayton. It sounds like Monty had issues with both. Ayton 23

Yeah but I'd much rather they just work it all out. It's not uncommon for teammates to fight with each other and with the coaching staff. What we don't know is the extent of these personnel issues, if they're solvable this is still a group that just won a club record 64 games.

Keep in mind, Boston is in the finals and that team had all kinds of conflict between players. And no one seemed to even listen to their coach the first couple of months of the season.

 

[Big Al]

It isn't that simple but yeah, that's part of it. His shots are assisted because he doesn't force anything, he takes "his" shot and nothing more. He rarely puts it on the floor and drives so he's not picking up the occasional charge and he isn't using up the shot clock to no advantage as so many bigs do.

I really hate to defend his offense because there are real problems there, I just don't see being assisted at a high rate as one of them.

Earlier in his career we tried to run the offense through him more often and his propensity to fumble the pass leading to an occasional turnover or more often, forcing a reset of the offense after wasting precious seconds was a real problem.

Plus, one of the advantages of running your offense through a talented big man down low (at the expense of the highly favored 3 point shot) is the expectation that the defense will suffer from extra fouls and forced double teams. We get very little of that from DA. But I don't believe we've ever really worked on this.

We accept we're a guard based offense and after giving him a few passes at the start of the game, we forget all about him. It's not because all of a sudden every single team figured out 4 minutes into the game how to guard him either, it's a decision on Monty or CP's part.

And maybe this is the best way to play given the strength of our guards but it's contributing to the likelihood that we will part ways with one of the most gifted players we've ever had. I expect that if we lose him, his next team will force him to become the power inside that he is capable of becoming and we'll go back to complaining about our inability to get a quality big man.

CP won't be here forever, if his presence is contributing to our DA issues that's just one more reason to be patient with Ayton and give him his money. CP won't be here much longer, DA has a chance to be a fixture for us.

I rather get rid of a 38 year old point guard Paul than a 23 year old #1 center in Ayton for the future. It sounds like Monty had issues with both players but Paul probably presented the more resistance to Monty. They say Paul is overbearing at time and the young Suns took a while for it to effect them. They followed willing all season however. Some on this board nix pic and critize Ayton to death. He's a guy who came in the league as a talented immature 19 year old with 1 year college experience & coached by a recruiter (not a coach) in Sean Miller and he's made steady progress every year. Yeah he's not as effective as some of us would like but damn be a little patient the Suns are asking a lot from a young man who never had a tutor until McGhee this year and he's never played next to a good power forward either. He can guard guards at the top of the key and guard the rim at the same time and can't score 25 points with 5 touches as the Suns weren't giving him consistent touches. Too bad Suns couldn't put the individual issues aside and focus on winning for what could have been their 1st championship. Because for 64 wins we were tough minded and on fire with a powerful mindset. We didn't stay on that track. We had it and then dropped the ball. But we had a heck of regular season show!

 

[Big Al]

My initial reaction is to agree with you but then I witnessed the total transformation of this team including Booker when paired with a real PG. I wouldn't object to moving Paul but getting a legit PG on this team in return would be critical and still wouldn't solve having a legit back PG behind that person.

Of course you'd have to get another skilled point guard. Absolutely

 

[Cheesebeef]

It's really not going to make sense if they get rid of Ayton because Monty and CP3 want to play a certain style built around a 37 year old PG who either can't ever make it healthy through the playoffs or is the biggest choker of all time when the pressure's at it's highest in the playoffs.

 

[Yuma]

The NBA investigation should be completed soon. Who knows what will happen.

Even if they extend Johnson, the salary would not take effect until later. Just like they did with Booker.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Same can be said about his fantastic % on shooting.

His % is high but his attempts are low because

1. He passed out of a dunk 2ft uncovered
2. Passed out of a 4 footer with a way smaller defender on him
3. Didn't catch it clean, fumbled but didn't turn it over, but still passed the ball out

Those don't show up as turnovers or a missed shot.

All that said, when Ayton does load up to shoot I now fully expect him to make the basket. His shooting is that good.

 

[Yuma]

Ayton does have a good shot. I think he should have been used like Karl Malone on offense. He definitely needed to develop better handles so he could maneuver into his spots for hi jumpers. There's a lot of little things he misses on offense from being great, but he's definitely good!

 

[1tinsoldier]

uh, the "pressure was at it's highest" when the #1 seed lost it's best player and looked like they would go down to the 8 seed until a point god stepped up. And how many times has he done that in both playoff pressure and 4th quarter pressure during the regular season?

how myoptic to single him out when any time he failed here, our best player failed with him, as did another guy who's demanding max money, as well as the whole team and their coach. THEY failed him far more then he failed them. in fact, he LEAD them from lottery to the brink of the 2021 championship and 2022 conference finals

a more appropriate question is whether it's ignorance or arrogance to suggest it's a toss-up as to whether Paul's performance as a Sun was a failure to handle pressure or an inevitable and predictable limitation of aging.

like i said before, i'm much more disappointed in the gutlessness of some Suns fans than i am in the Suns playoff run breaking down

 

[Mainstreet]

Yup so true. But I don't want to see Kaminsky in a Suns uniform ever again he's way too flawed. To suit up Frank Kaminsky & pay him is simply a handout to apart time effective jump shooter who brings nothing else. Warriors 6-8 center Looney shined against Mavericks and Ayton should have excelled against the Maverick's centers & team. Suns can't pay the Max for a part time motivated player so wake up Ayton sign the contract and bring it every night like Luka attempts to do and other Max players do. There is responsibility if only he understood it.

I didn't mind Frank Kaminsky as a 15th type player on the roster. He really can play but injuries got the best of him this past season.

Sometimes I wonder if he hadn't been waived, the Suns might not have collapsed. Maybe that is a reach but he is a good chemistry player.

 

[Cheesebeef]

uh, the "pressure was at it's highest" when the #1 seed lost it's best player and looked like they would go down to the 8 seed until a point god stepped up. And how many times has he done that in both playoff pressure and 4th quarter pressure during the regular season?

how myoptic to single him out when any time he failed here, our best player failed with him, as did another guy who's demanding max money, as well as the whole team and their coach. THEY failed him far more then he failed them. in fact, he LEAD them from lottery to the brink of the 2021 championship and 2022 conference finals

a more appropriate question is whether it's ignorance or arrogance to suggest it's a toss-up as to whether Paul's performance as a Sun was a failure to handle pressure or an inevitable and predictable limitation of aging.

like i said before, i'm much more disappointed in the gutlessness of some Suns fans than i am in the Suns playoff run breaking down

uh, the "pressure was at it's highest" when the #1 seed lost it's best player and looked like they would go down to the 8 seed until a point god stepped up. And how many times has he done that in both playoff pressure and 4th quarter pressure during the regular season?

how myoptic to single him out when any time he failed here, our best player failed with him, as did another guy who's demanding max money, as well as the whole team and their coach. THEY failed him far more then he failed them. in fact, he LEAD them from lottery to the brink of the 2021 championship and 2022 conference finals

a more appropriate question is whether it's ignorance or arrogance to suggest it's a toss-up as to whether Paul's performance as a Sun was a failure to handle pressure or an inevitable and predictable limitation of aging.

like i said before, i'm much more disappointed in the gutlessness of some Suns fans than i am in the Suns playoff run breaking down

Gutlessness of Suns fans?

Chris Paul has massively choked time and time and time and time again in the playoffs during his ENTIRE CAREER. Whether he was on New Orleans, the Clippers, the Rockets or the Suns. Some of that was physical, but there was much more where he just flat out melted down and thus, so did his team.

But go ahead and trash board members if it makes you feel better. Doesn’t change the fact that he’s the only player ever to blow FIVE 2-0 series lead in his career. And that doesn’t even include losing to the beat up Warriors sans KD in his second year with Houston, or his epic meltdown against OKC when the Clippers could have won that series.

And it REALLY doesn’t change the fact that even if it’s ALL physical, that will STILL only get worse with age.

I don’t hate CP3. I love that he gave us a couple really fun years, especially during some dark times for the country and personally. But the Suns shouldn’t be planning their future based on what we know now has failed in the past to win the title. And if you’re not gonna win the title in the present, it’s time to look to the future. Doing anything else is falling into basketball purgatory.

 

[AZ Native]

Gutlessness of Suns fans?

Chris Paul has massively choked time and time and time and time again in the playoffs during his ENTIRE CAREER. Whether he was on New Orleans, the Clippers, the Rockets or the Suns. Some of that was physical, but there was much more where he just flat out melted down and thus, so did his team.
This is such a good post.
But go ahead and trash board members if it makes you feel better. Doesn’t change the fact that he’s the only player ever to blow FIVE 2-0 series lead in his career. And that doesn’t even include losing to the beat up Warriors sans KD in his second year with Houston, or his epic meltdown against OKC when the Clippers could have won that series.

And it REALLY doesn’t change the fact that even if it’s ALL physical, that will STILL only get worse with age.

I don’t hate CP3. I love that he gave us a couple really fun years, especially during some dark times for the country and personally. But the Suns shouldn’t be planning their future based on what we know now has failed in the past to win the title. And if you’re not gonna win the title in the present, it’s time to look to the future. Doing anything else is falling into basketball purgatory.

 

[1tinsoldier]

that kind of sniveling bad-cherry-picking is exactly what i'm talking about.
yes, TEAMS that Paul was on, with other stars and superstars, have blown FIVE 2-0 series leads.

-- in his 17 year NBA career, leading his teams to 25 playoff series and 150 playoff games!

you've gotten bent out of shape in the past when i criticized Booker before he had accomplished anything in his career

pick this cherry..
Booker, our max player who's going to want super-max now, already has 2 blown 2-0 starts in his only 2 playoff runs
and so does Ayton, who wanted to be paid like a superstar this year
and our coach of the year -- he's also got 2
and so does the runner up for defensive player of the year

not only should Booker and Ayton DREAM of having a hall-of-fame career like Paul,
every other point guard in the league should too

but, for the rest of their careers, in your history book,
every one of these Suns players should carry the label of choker

like that 37 year old choker Lebron James who our 37 year old choker beat in the 1st round last year
and who couldn't even get his superstar team to the playoffs this year, eh?

 

[Hoop Head]

that kind of sniveling bad-cherry-picking is exactly what i'm talking about.
yes, TEAMS that Paul was on, with other stars and superstars, have blown FIVE 2-0 series leads.

-- in his 17 year NBA career, leading his teams to 25 playoff series and 150 playoff games!

you've gotten bent out of shape in the past when i criticized Booker before he had accomplished anything in his career

pick this cherry..
Booker, our max player who's going to want super-max now, already has 2 blown 2-0 starts in his only 2 playoff runs
and so does Ayton, who wanted to be paid like a superstar this year
and our coach of the year -- he's also got 2
and so does the runner up for defensive player of the year

not only should Booker and Ayton DREAM of having a hall-of-fame career like Paul,
every other point guard in the league should too

but, for the rest of their careers, in your history book,
every one of these Suns players should carry the label of choker

like that 37 year old choker Lebron James who our 37 year old choker beat in the 1st round last year
and who couldn't even get his superstar team to the playoffs this year, eh?

Yes, if Ayton and Booker continue blowing playoff leads they'll be labeled a choker just like Chris Paul. Theyre too young to have that label at this point and they don't have Paul's history of choking. Before joining the Suns, Paul had never made it to the finals and his team blew a 3-2 series lead in the conference finals the only time he'd made it in Houston. He'd fail to make the conference finals his entire run in LA also. He didn't make the conference finals because his teams largely choked in the semi-finals.

Has he had a hall of fame career? Yes, that doesn't change that he's been a choker in the playoffs.

Funny you call LeBron a choker but get your panties twisted over Paul being called one despite Paul not having close to the accolades LeBron has.

 

[95pro]

All that said, when Ayton does load up to shoot I now fully expect him to make the basket. His shooting is that good.

Yeah im not in disagreement, its the shots that he doesnt take that's the problem, as some people brought up the notion that he has low attempts.

 

[Cheesebeef]

that kind of sniveling bad-cherry-picking is exactly what i'm talking about.
yes, TEAMS that Paul was on, with other stars and superstars, have blown FIVE 2-0 series leads.

-- in his 17 year NBA career, leading his teams to 25 playoff series and 150 playoff games!

you've gotten bent out of shape in the past when i criticized Booker before he had accomplished anything in his career

pick this cherry..
Booker, our max player who's going to want super-max now, already has 2 blown 2-0 starts in his only 2 playoff runs
and so does Ayton, who wanted to be paid like a superstar this year
and our coach of the year -- he's also got 2
and so does the runner up for defensive player of the year

not only should Booker and Ayton DREAM of having a hall-of-fame career like Paul,
every other point guard in the league should too

but, for the rest of their careers, in your history book,
every one of these Suns players should carry the label of choker

like that 37 year old choker Lebron James who our 37 year old choker beat in the 1st round last year
and who couldn't even get his superstar team to the playoffs this year, eh?

This is a truly terrible argument. LeBron James has won 4 titles and been to the Finals 10 times. Paul has won ZERO TITLES and has only been to the Finals 1 time. Hell, he’s only to been to the Conference Title round 2 times.

LeBron has proved over the course of his career the ability to come up big in the clutch and win the entire thing… repeatedly. Chris Paul has not.

And yes, if Booker and Ayton keep blowing 2-0 series leads, they’ll get that label wrapped around their neck also. And I’ve personally bashed Book’ for exactly that, now seeing the beginning of a an ugly pattern where he flat out choked in Game 6 of the Finals last year and Games 6 and 7 this season.

See… that’s called being consistent with praise or condemnation. Not sniveling, gutless or whatever insult you want hurl next.