The Ayton Plan

[Folster]

I thought it would be interesting to compare the Ayton to Hall of Fame centers at similar ages equalized per 36 minutes. I had to settle for age 24 for Robinson as that was his rookie year.

Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
Deandre Ayton	2021-22	23	58	58	1713	9.3	14.6	0.634	0.1	0.4	0.368	9.1	14.2	0.642	2.2	3	0.746	3.1	9.3	12.5	1.8	0.8	0.8	1.9	3	21
Hakeem Olajuwon*	1985-86	23	68	68	2467	9.1	17.3	0.526	0	0		9.1	17.3	0.526	5.1	7.9	0.645	4.9	6.5	11.4	2	2	3.4	2.8	4	23.3
Patrick Ewing*	1985-86	23	50	50	1771	7.8	16.5	0.474	0	0.1	0	7.8	16.4	0.477	4.6	6.2	0.739	2.5	6.6	9.2	2.1	1.1	2.1	3.5	3.9	20.3
David Robinson*	1989-90	24	82	81	3002	8.3	15.6	0.531	0	0	0	8.3	15.6	0.532	7.4	10	0.732	3.6	8.2	11.8	2	1.7	3.8	3.1	3.1	23.9

He's certainly a negative outlier with blocks. Turnovers look like a positive, but that is a function of his role in the offense and inability to create his own shot. Same with free throw attempts, Look at the field goal percentages. The big question is can Ayton develop the ability to create his own shot and become a primary or secondary option? He will need to improve his hands and handles.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I thought it would be interesting to compare the Ayton to Hall of Fame centers at similar ages equalized per 36 minutes. I had to settle for age 24 for Robinson as that was his rookie year.

Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
Deandre Ayton	2021-22	23	58	58	1713	9.3	14.6	0.634	0.1	0.4	0.368	9.1	14.2	0.642	2.2	3	0.746	3.1	9.3	12.5	1.8	0.8	0.8	1.9	3	21
Hakeem Olajuwon*	1985-86	23	68	68	2467	9.1	17.3	0.526	0	0		9.1	17.3	0.526	5.1	7.9	0.645	4.9	6.5	11.4	2	2	3.4	2.8	4	23.3
Patrick Ewing*	1985-86	23	50	50	1771	7.8	16.5	0.474	0	0.1	0	7.8	16.4	0.477	4.6	6.2	0.739	2.5	6.6	9.2	2.1	1.1	2.1	3.5	3.9	20.3
David Robinson*	1989-90	24	82	81	3002	8.3	15.6	0.531	0	0	0	8.3	15.6	0.532	7.4	10	0.732	3.6	8.2	11.8	2	1.7	3.8	3.1	3.1	23.9

He's certainly a negative outlier with blocks. Turnovers look like a positive, but that is a function of his role in the offense and inability to create his own shot. Same with free throw attempts, Look at the field goal percentages. The big question is can Ayton develop the ability to create his own shot and become a primary or secondary option? He will need to improve his hands and handles.

He compares to Hall of Fame centers. It's frankly embarassing that there is a debate over whether or not to pay him, outside of something incredibly salacious that none of us know about.

 

[Folster]

He compares to Hall of Fame centers. It's frankly embarassing that there is a debate over whether or not to pay him, outside of something incredibly salacious that none of us know about.

Imagine if he had 3 to 4 years of a Coach K or Dean Smith type before coming into the league.

We need to keep him. He's hanging with the all time greats with half-hearted play.

 

[Covert Rain]

I thought it would be interesting to compare the Ayton to Hall of Fame centers at similar ages equalized per 36 minutes. I had to settle for age 24 for Robinson as that was his rookie year.

Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
Deandre Ayton	2021-22	23	58	58	1713	9.3	14.6	0.634	0.1	0.4	0.368	9.1	14.2	0.642	2.2	3	0.746	3.1	9.3	12.5	1.8	0.8	0.8	1.9	3	21
Hakeem Olajuwon*	1985-86	23	68	68	2467	9.1	17.3	0.526	0	0		9.1	17.3	0.526	5.1	7.9	0.645	4.9	6.5	11.4	2	2	3.4	2.8	4	23.3
Patrick Ewing*	1985-86	23	50	50	1771	7.8	16.5	0.474	0	0.1	0	7.8	16.4	0.477	4.6	6.2	0.739	2.5	6.6	9.2	2.1	1.1	2.1	3.5	3.9	20.3
David Robinson*	1989-90	24	82	81	3002	8.3	15.6	0.531	0	0	0	8.3	15.6	0.532	7.4	10	0.732	3.6	8.2	11.8	2	1.7	3.8	3.1	3.1	23.9

He's certainly a negative outlier with blocks. Turnovers look like a positive, but that is a function of his role in the offense and inability to create his own shot. Same with free throw attempts, Look at the field goal percentages. The big question is can Ayton develop the ability to create his own shot and become a primary or secondary option? He will need to improve his hands and handles.

Most of those players were also featured in their offense and had a much better offensive game in terms of creating their own shot. Ayton is NOT comparable IMO from that aspect at all. Not even close. It's Ayton's next step.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Most of those players were also featured in their offense and had a much better offensive game in terms of creating their own shot. Ayton is NOT comparable IMO from that aspect at all. Not even close. It's Ayton's next step.

Nor is he close to the dominant defender those guys were at that age as well.

 

[Mainstreet]

Most of those players were also featured in their offense and had a much better offensive game in terms of creating their own shot. Ayton is NOT comparable IMO from that aspect at all. Not even close. It's Ayton's next step.

Also they played much better defense than Ayton.

 

[95pro]

I thought it would be interesting to compare the Ayton to Hall of Fame centers at similar ages equalized per 36 minutes. I had to settle for age 24 for Robinson as that was his rookie year.

Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
Deandre Ayton	2021-22	23	58	58	1713	9.3	14.6	0.634	0.1	0.4	0.368	9.1	14.2	0.642	2.2	3	0.746	3.1	9.3	12.5	1.8	0.8	0.8	1.9	3	21
Hakeem Olajuwon*	1985-86	23	68	68	2467	9.1	17.3	0.526	0	0		9.1	17.3	0.526	5.1	7.9	0.645	4.9	6.5	11.4	2	2	3.4	2.8	4	23.3
Patrick Ewing*	1985-86	23	50	50	1771	7.8	16.5	0.474	0	0.1	0	7.8	16.4	0.477	4.6	6.2	0.739	2.5	6.6	9.2	2.1	1.1	2.1	3.5	3.9	20.3
David Robinson*	1989-90	24	82	81	3002	8.3	15.6	0.531	0	0	0	8.3	15.6	0.532	7.4	10	0.732	3.6	8.2	11.8	2	1.7	3.8	3.1	3.1	23.9

He's certainly a negative outlier with blocks. Turnovers look like a positive, but that is a function of his role in the offense and inability to create his own shot. Same with free throw attempts, Look at the field goal percentages. The big question is can Ayton develop the ability to create his own shot and become a primary or secondary option? He will need to improve his hands and handles.

You'd think his assists would be higher considering how much he's sacrificing his game.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Nor is he close to the dominant defender those guys were at that age as well.

If you wanted to argue he's nowhere near the shot blocker, that makes sense. As an overall defender, Ayton is much more versatile.

I don't think you'll get much argument that Ayton is a top 5 defensive center in basketball right now, and that his ability to switch effectively on anyone is a much more useful skill in the modern NBA than the superior shot blocking the others provided.

 

[Finito]

If you wanted to argue he's nowhere near the shot blocker, that makes sense. As an overall defender, Ayton is much more versatile.

I don't think you'll get much argument that Ayton is a top 5 defensive center in basketball right now, and that his ability to switch effectively on anyone is a much more useful skill in the modern NBA than the superior shot blocking the others provided.

It’s such a different game. No one was asking Ewing to guard ball handlers at the 3 point line. It just wasnt a thing back then. It’s a totally different skill set in todays NBA.

I think what would Shaq be today. He was helpless 10 feet away from the basket on offense and a horrible free throw shooter.

On defense you play 5 out and have him out of the paint. He’s way to big to chase the ball or stay in front of someone.

He’s always making fun of Gobert on TV but idk I could see Shaq being a very similar player. Shaq was never known for his stamina and the game moves so much faster now. He would be grabbing his knees by the 3rd quarter

Barkley? I think Barkley DOMINATES this era. Could you imagine him as a small ball 5. Such an underrated passer and shooter.

 

[Folster]

If you wanted to argue he's nowhere near the shot blocker, that makes sense. As an overall defender, Ayton is much more versatile.

I don't think you'll get much argument that Ayton is a top 5 defensive center in basketball right now, and that his ability to switch effectively on anyone is a much more useful skill in the modern NBA than the superior shot blocking the others provided.

And I don't think the three hall of famers were asked to guard much on the perimeter or switch onto guards that often. Zone defenses also weren't allowed until 2001. The league has changed since 80s and 90s, so it's worth considering if a center is as valuable as they once were.

 

[1tinsoldier]

hello? sarcasm!
that was my point -- that you don't diss Lebron's career, hall of fame, body of work with a choker label

as for Paul -- what might you call a player who, during his 2 years with your team has led the league in frigging CLUTCH 4 quarter performances? CHOKER?

and flipping 2 weeks ago CLUTCHED your team to a first round win after our "superstar" pulled his hamstring?

CHOKER? because in over 25 playoff series, 5 of them got off to a good start (probably home-court advantage) but the better coached overall team got it done?

CHOKER? because, when he couldn't push his body (that he fanatically works to maintain) any further after getting us the #1 seed and a game from the Conference Finals, none of the players he's carried on his back could flogging step-up?

what do you call a fair-whether fan who quits on the floor-leader who got them a 64-18 record breaking season?

go buy yourselves a Curry and Tatum jersey today and donate one to goodwill in 2 weeks

 

[Cheesebeef]

If you wanted to argue he's nowhere near the shot blocker, that makes sense. As an overall defender, Ayton is much more versatile.

I don't think you'll get much argument that Ayton is a top 5 defensive center in basketball right now, and that his ability to switch effectively on anyone is a much more useful skill in the modern NBA than the superior shot blocking the others provided.

Dallas Gobert'd him with ease. I think Ayton's versatility is wildly overrated on this board. It's the old Shawn Marion thing of "look... he can be versatile and guard anyone" but it doesn't mean he's particularly great at doing so. And that's evidenced by almost every defensive metric, and general feeling around the league where no one gives him the time of day for any season he's ever played when All-Defensive Teams are put together.

 

[Finito]

Dallas Gobert'd him with ease. I think Ayton's versatility is wildly overrated on this board. It's the old Shawn Marion thing of "look... he can be versatile and guard anyone" but it doesn't mean he's particularly great at doing so. And that's evidenced by almost every defensive metric, and general feeling around the league where no one gives him the time of day for any season he's ever played when All-Defensive Teams are put together.

Still at it huh

 

[GatorAZ]

I thought it would be interesting to compare the Ayton to Hall of Fame centers at similar ages equalized per 36 minutes. I had to settle for age 24 for Robinson as that was his rookie year.

Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
Deandre Ayton	2021-22	23	58	58	1713	9.3	14.6	0.634	0.1	0.4	0.368	9.1	14.2	0.642	2.2	3	0.746	3.1	9.3	12.5	1.8	0.8	0.8	1.9	3	21
Hakeem Olajuwon*	1985-86	23	68	68	2467	9.1	17.3	0.526	0	0		9.1	17.3	0.526	5.1	7.9	0.645	4.9	6.5	11.4	2	2	3.4	2.8	4	23.3
Patrick Ewing*	1985-86	23	50	50	1771	7.8	16.5	0.474	0	0.1	0	7.8	16.4	0.477	4.6	6.2	0.739	2.5	6.6	9.2	2.1	1.1	2.1	3.5	3.9	20.3
David Robinson*	1989-90	24	82	81	3002	8.3	15.6	0.531	0	0	0	8.3	15.6	0.532	7.4	10	0.732	3.6	8.2	11.8	2	1.7	3.8	3.1	3.1	23.9

He's certainly a negative outlier with blocks. Turnovers look like a positive, but that is a function of his role in the offense and inability to create his own shot. Same with free throw attempts, Look at the field goal percentages. The big question is can Ayton develop the ability to create his own shot and become a primary or secondary option? He will need to improve his hands and handles.

Robinson and Olajuwon would be putting up better numbers than Embiid with today’s spacing. They’d be unstoppable. It was almost a different sport 30 years ago.

 

[Ronin]

hello? sarcasm!
that was my point -- that you don't diss Lebron's career, hall of fame, body of work with a choker label

as for Paul -- what might you call a player who, during his 2 years with your team has led the league in frigging CLUTCH 4 quarter performances? CHOKER?

and flipping 2 weeks ago CLUTCHED your team to a first round win after our "superstar" pulled his hamstring?

CHOKER? because in over 25 playoff series, 5 of them got off to a good start (probably home-court advantage) but the better coached overall team got it done?

CHOKER? because, when he couldn't push his body (that he fanatically works to maintain) any further after getting us the #1 seed and a game from the Conference Finals, none of the players he's carried on his back could flogging step-up?

what do you call a fair-whether fan who quits on the floor-leader who got them a 64-18 record breaking season?

go buy yourselves a Curry and Tatum jersey today and donate one to goodwill in 2 weeks

Calling out fans will not be tolerated. You are skating on thin ice.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Dallas Gobert'd him with ease.

Dude, what are you talking about? Ayton was one of the best defenders vs. Doncic in terms of FG %

In fact, Gobert got Gobert'ed, if you really want to be honest here:

Luka Doncic | Dallas Mavericks

Luka Doncic Stats and news - NBA stats and news on Dallas Mavericks Forward-Guard Luka Doncic

www.nba.com

This gives you Luka vs. individual players. Bridges and CP got torched! (58% and 55% given up respectively)

Your narrative of Ayton getting Gobert'ed is completely false. Doncic shot 41% vs. Ayton!

I think Ayton's versatility is wildly overrated on this board.

Guards FG% with Ayton matched up with them 2018-19: 44.8% 2019-20: 42.3% 2020-21: 42.0% 2021-22: 36.6%

It's the old Shawn Marion thing of "look... he can be versatile and guard anyone" but it doesn't mean he's particularly great at doing so.

It's really hard to shut down Steph Curry to Jokic! Nobody will do it entirely, but Ayton has proven to be very good at switching and helping.

And that's evidenced by almost every defensive metric,

ooh, like these?

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

There are plenty of metrics that show he's a very good defender.

and general feeling around the league where no one gives him the time of day for any season he's ever played when All-Defensive Teams are put together.

NBA announces 2021-22 Kia All-Defensive 1st and 2nd Teams | NBA.com

Kia Defensive Player of the Year Marcus Smart and Phoenix swingman Mikal Bridges lead the way as the 2021-22 All-Defensive Teams are revealed.

www.nba.com

He was literally one of four centers to get recognition. Ayton is a really good defender.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Guards FG% with Ayton matched up with them 2018-19: 44.8% 2019-20: 42.3% 2020-21: 42.0% 2021-22: 36.6%

It's really hard to shut down Steph Curry to Jokic! Nobody will do it entirely, but Ayton has proven to be very good at switching and helping.

ooh, like these?

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

There are plenty of metrics that show he's a very good defender.

NBA announces 2021-22 Kia All-Defensive 1st and 2nd Teams | NBA.com

Kia Defensive Player of the Year Marcus Smart and Phoenix swingman Mikal Bridges lead the way as the 2021-22 All-Defensive Teams are revealed.

www.nba.com

He was literally one of four centers to get recognition. Ayton is a really good defender.

he got ONE vote.

and for every metric you show, there's been another to show he's a good defender and nothing more.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

he got ONE vote.

and for every metric you show, there's been another to show he's a good defender and nothing more.

He's a top 5 defender at his position, and an incredibly versatile defender. He's also 24! The nitpicking with Ayton is incredible.

 

[Chaplin]

Dallas Gobert'd him with ease. I think Ayton's versatility is wildly overrated on this board. It's the old Shawn Marion thing of "look... he can be versatile and guard anyone" but it doesn't mean he's particularly great at doing so. And that's evidenced by almost every defensive metric, and general feeling around the league where no one gives him the time of day for any season he's ever played when All-Defensive Teams are put together.

"Wildly overrated"? What? There are a couple posters that love the guy, but for the most part he's the most abused player we have on this board.

 

[Covert Rain]

Dude, what are you talking about? Ayton was one of the best defenders vs. Doncic in terms of FG %

In fact, Gobert got Gobert'ed, if you really want to be honest here:

Luka Doncic | Dallas Mavericks

Luka Doncic Stats and news - NBA stats and news on Dallas Mavericks Forward-Guard Luka Doncic

www.nba.com

This gives you Luka vs. individual players. Bridges and CP got torched! (58% and 55% given up respectively)

Your narrative of Ayton getting Gobert'ed is completely false. Doncic shot 41% vs. Ayton!

Guards FG% with Ayton matched up with them 2018-19: 44.8% 2019-20: 42.3% 2020-21: 42.0% 2021-22: 36.6%

It's really hard to shut down Steph Curry to Jokic! Nobody will do it entirely, but Ayton has proven to be very good at switching and helping.

ooh, like these?

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

There are plenty of metrics that show he's a very good defender.

NBA announces 2021-22 Kia All-Defensive 1st and 2nd Teams | NBA.com

Kia Defensive Player of the Year Marcus Smart and Phoenix swingman Mikal Bridges lead the way as the 2021-22 All-Defensive Teams are revealed.

www.nba.com

He was literally one of four centers to get recognition. Ayton is a really good defender.

That's not a good argument. Ayton was on him for 13 minutes compared to Bridges 40. Meaning the only time Ayton guarded him was during switches. Chris Paul was on him almost just as much. You can't draw any kind of conclusion about Ayton's defense in that matchup. It would be better to see how Ayton's "defensive per" matches up to others at his position.

 

[Finito]

he got ONE vote.

and for every metric you show, there's been another to show he's a good defender and nothing more.

One of these guys is all defense the other is Ayton. Here’s a hint they play the exact same position.

Defensive rating
104
105

Rebounding
10.2
10.1

Blocks
0.8
0.7

Stop trying to make Fetch happen. Listen I get you feel a certain type of way and you are totally entitled to feel that way but it doesn’t make it true.

It’s already been pointed out by others how good he was against Luka and the Mavs, but Bridges made all defense so I mean he must have really shut guys down huh, right….right

You know what Ayton held Giannis to last year? On plays where Ayton guarded Giannis 36% you know what Giannis got against all other Suns? 80%.

Ayton is pretty damn good on defense

 

[Finito]

Robinson and Olajuwon would be putting up better numbers than Embiid with today’s spacing. They’d be unstoppable. It was almost a different sport 30 years ago.

I think Robinson and Dream would be amazing in this era

 

[Cheesebeef]

He's a top 5 defender at his position, and an incredibly versatile defender. He's also 24! The nitpicking with Ayton is incredible.

The hyperbolic stuff coming from his undying supporters is even more incredible. He’s a good young center… but you guys are literally making comparisons of him to HOFers with a straight face.

That’s bizarre.

And that’s from someone who thinks he should absolutely re-signed.

 

[Folster]

The hyperbolic stuff coming from his undying supporters is even more incredible. He’s a good young center… but you guys are literally making comparisons of him to HOFers with a straight face.

That’s bizarre.

And that’s from someone who thinks he should absolutely re-signed.

I don't think he's at the young HOFers level, but I wanted to see how he stacked up to the greats at the same age. We've all dissected his deficiencies to the extreme and it seems we have accepted that he will be traded. I just wanted to give myself perspective of what he currently is in comparison and those stats clearly shows where he is deficient which we all recognize.

Even though I am one of his most outspoke critics and am frustrated by his floating and lack of focus, I think it's important to remember that he did not get 3-4 years in a regimented college program from which the dominant centers of yesteryear benefited. Age wise, he is equivalent of a 2nd year player in comparison to those centers.

As much as I like rosterbating about potential trades, our best move will be to re-sign and continue to develop him. And our best chance to improve our team will be to combine our expirings with a player like Cam Johnson to try to bring in more talent.

 

[Proximo]

One of these guys is all defense the other is Ayton. Here’s a hint they play the exact same position.

Defensive rating
104
105

Rebounding
10.2
10.1

Blocks
0.8
0.7

Stop trying to make Fetch happen. Listen I get you feel a certain type of way and you are totally entitled to feel that way but it doesn’t make it true.

It’s already been pointed out by others how good he was against Luka and the Mavs, but Bridges made all defense so I mean he must have really shut guys down huh, right….right

You know what Ayton held Giannis to last year? On plays where Ayton guarded Giannis 36% you know what Giannis got against all other Suns? 80%.

Ayton is pretty damn good on defense

Agreed Ayton is really good on D, and has all the natural talent in the world to become a top 10 player.

The problem with him is all mental, and unfortunatley that is unlikely to be fixed.