The Cardinals Front Office: To Be Or Not To Be

[CardLogic]

I dont have my old spreadsheets but I can give you estimates.

First of all when reports showed up that we had 40 something million in cap space a few weeks before free agency everyone went on their usually free agent feeding frenzy, we need to sign so and so and 10 of them. Even though I put it into perspective for everyone. That perspective was yes we have 40 mill in cap but the day free agency hit most of that money would be gone. We only had 28 players under contract, that is a lot of players to re-sign. We had to pay some hefty RFA tenders, some EFA tenders. After Wilson, Warner, Haggans, RFA's, EFA's, bonuses paid out that were due, and some other players we re-signed we had a total of 7 mill in cap space. We did not have a lot of money to sign on free agents and were ranked #8 in total salary paid out in 2009. In no way shape or form can it be said they have been cheap since Wiz got here.

McFadden took up 5 of that remaining 7 or so, and for all the hyperbole about the guy he was without a shadow of a doubt an upgrade allowing 6 fewer TD's then his predecessor, allowed 2 fewer completetion percents, allowed 1 less yards per catch, and a whopping 23 fewer passer rating points. He and Davis(who also likes to get slammed) were also apart of a drastic Passing D turn around from the year before (minus two horrible playoff games one marred by injuries mind you). Our D as a whole allowed 6 fewer points per game from 2008 to 2009. Allowed 14 fewer passing TD's then previous year, allowed 5 fewer completion percentages, and held QB's to 20+ fewer qb rating points per game. I know the playoff games taints that and its what is most fresh in the memory and it was drastic, but that does not erase the drastic Passing D and Pass Rush improvement our team made in the regular season.

There you go again, joe. Letting facts get in the way of a good argument based upon interpreting what a player meant instead of what they said, or reading a players body language on the sideline, from one's sofa.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Re: The Free Agent Market.

Last evening, on the NFL Network, we were informed that only 15% of the 230 Free Agents in this class are 28 or younger.

 

[Cardiac]

Put me in the Joeshmo, K9, Rugmuffin, Cdob and etc. camps.

I will add one more point I haven't seen listed. Rod Graves does still have to work for the Bidwills. Do any of us know how much say Sr. has. Do some of these negotiations drag on because Sr. squeezes pennies until Lincolns nose bleeds. Penny wise dollar foolish.
Maybe Graves is a turtle and does deserve some critisism, then again maybe it's the Bidwill influence.

I get some of the frustration from Mitch and Catfish. The thing is no organization is perfect. As fans we should complain about perceived and real mistakes but I know that RG and the Cards FO have earned more respect then some are giving them.

As many have posted the Colts and Steelers are prime examples of teams that don't do much in FA.

 

[NuttinButTDs]

I dont have my old spreadsheets but I can give you estimates.

First of all when reports showed up that we had 40 something million in cap space a few weeks before free agency everyone went on their usually free agent feeding frenzy, we need to sign so and so and 10 of them. Even though I put it into perspective for everyone. That perspective was yes we have 40 mill in cap but the day free agency hit most of that money would be gone. We only had 28 players under contract, that is a lot of players to re-sign. We had to pay some hefty RFA tenders, some EFA tenders. After Wilson, Warner, Haggans, RFA's, EFA's, bonuses paid out that were due, and some other players we re-signed we had a total of 7 mill in cap space. We did not have a lot of money to sign on free agents and were ranked #8 in total salary paid out in 2009. In no way shape or form can it be said they have been cheap since Wiz got here.

McFadden took up 5 of that remaining 7 or so, and for all the hyperbole about the guy he was without a shadow of a doubt an upgrade allowing 6 fewer TD's then his predecessor, allowed 2 fewer completetion percents, allowed 1 less yards per catch, and a whopping 23 fewer passer rating points. He and Davis(who also likes to get slammed) were also apart of a drastic Passing D turn around from the year before (minus two horrible playoff games one marred by injuries mind you). Our D as a whole allowed 6 fewer points per game from 2008 to 2009. Allowed 14 fewer passing TD's then previous year, allowed 5 fewer completion percentages, and held QB's to 20+ fewer qb rating points per game. I know the playoff games taints that and its what is most fresh in the memory and it was drastic, but that does not erase the drastic Passing D and Pass Rush improvement our team made in the regular season.

Thanks Joe, As always we can count on you to bring clarity to the discussions.

 

[Buckybird]

I will add one more point I haven't seen listed. Rod Graves does still have to work for the Bidwills. Do any of us know how much say Sr. has. Do some of these negotiations drag on because Sr. squeezes pennies until Lincolns nose bleeds. Penny wise dollar foolish.
Maybe Graves is a turtle and does deserve some critisism, then again maybe it's the Bidwill influence.

As much as I think things have changed I still believe $$$ with the Cards is an issue & will always be, thus somethings may not ever change to an extent. Either Mr. B still has alot more input than we think or Rod Graves is an enept GM when it comes to extending players.

 

[Cardiac]

As much as I think things have changed I still believe $$$ with the Cards is an issue & will always be, thus somethings may not ever change to an extent. Either Mr. B still has alot more input than we think or Rod Graves is an enept GM when it comes to extending players.

Yep, the Cards will never spend money like Snyder or JJ etc. Since Michael has come on board and the stadium built we all do see the Cards spending more money. I'm just saying the process for RG to submit a contract offer to a FA includes BB reviewing it. This could be what slows the process down to a snails pace.

 

[kerouac9]

I think this is an excellent post, however, I think Dansby is a special case. I think he's had the plan all along to reach FA and would have done the same thing no matter who drafted him.

That's revising history a little bit. If you let a player get tantalizingly close to free agency, they're going to want to see what's out there unless you money whip them. Dansby wasn't interested in free agency until he saw what an inferior player like Calvin Pace was about to get in the open market.

The Cards should've known what they had during Dansby's 3rd season. Instead, they offered Dansby a contract similar to what Gerald Hayes was playing under, which was insulting. Then after Dansby's 4th season they placed the Franchise tag on him saying openly that the Cards wanted to make sure what they had before signing him long term.

That was when Dasnby saw what Terrell Suggs and Calvin Pace were getting on the open market, and he wanted his. After Dansby's 5th season the Cards seemed comfortable with what they had but had to Franchise Dansby a second time in order to get him to the negotiating table.

Then the Cards had guaranteed Dansby some $14 million over two seasons. Dansby wanted to taste free agency. So the Cards would've had to offer significantly over market value to keep his services and keep him from finding out whether the grass was greener.

The Cards could continue to have a great value if they'd signed Dansby to an extension after 2006 (14 games, 69 tackles, 8 sacks, 4 FFs). It's what they did with Dockett and with Q. That's what you do with core players. Instead, they chose to wait and dug themselves into their current hole.

 

[Duckjake]

Put me in the Joeshmo, K9, Rugmuffin, Cdob and etc. camps.

I will add one more point I haven't seen listed. Rod Graves does still have to work for the Bidwills. Do any of us know how much say Sr. has. Do some of these negotiations drag on because Sr. squeezes pennies until Lincolns nose bleeds. Penny wise dollar foolish.
Maybe Graves is a turtle and does deserve some critisism, then again maybe it's the Bidwill influence.

I get some of the frustration from Mitch and Catfish. The thing is no organization is perfect. As fans we should complain about perceived and real mistakes but I know that RG and the Cards FO have earned more respect then some are giving them.

As many have posted the Colts and Steelers are prime examples of teams that don't do much in FA.

They are also teams that do really well in the draft. Just like the Cardinals have over the last few years. I think that the Colts had everyone of their first round draft picks still on the team, dating back to 1996, except for Edge, when they won the Super Bowl in 2006. In addition the first round guys were really good players. Guys like Manning, Harrison, Wayne, Clark, Sanders and Freeney.

By comparison the Cards were awful in 2003 having only 3 year's first round picks still on the team including Wendall "worthless" Bryant and Bryant Johnson.

Now we still have all our first round guys dating back to 2004 and even better, everyone is projected as a starter for us, instead of some other NFL team, going into this season.

 

[Cardiac]

They are also teams that do really well in the draft. Just like the Cardinals have over the last few years. I think that the Colts had everyone of their first round draft picks still on the team, dating back to 1996, except for Edge, when they won the Super Bowl in 2006. In addition the first round guys were really good players. Guys like Manning, Harrison, Wayne, Clark, Sanders and Freeney.

By comparison the Cards were awful in 2003 having only 3 year's first round picks still on the team including Wendall "worthless" Bryant and Bryant Johnson.

Now we still have all our first round guys dating back to 2004 and even better, everyone is projected as a starter for us, instead of some other NFL team, going into this season.

I agree with you.

Can anyone think of a team that got to the SB based on FA. Maybe the Saints should be considered since Brees was a FA pick up and the well documented (by Mitch) D acquisitions this past off season.

Maybe the Cards as well since KW was a FA pick up.

 

[Snakester]

I think we all can agree this team has come along way in the last ten years. But after the great year we had making it to the Superbowl, we had a couple of weaknesses to address. We needed a passrush and a LT the most followed by another RB and a TE. We went out and drafted our runningback (Beanie) and signed a CB (Bryant McFadden). Our two glaring weaknesses LT and passrush were not taken care of. Those are the two areas that again this year we need to address. If the team is serious about winning this year we will see these areas taken care of. If both areas are not taken care of again then I think everybody can agree the front office is being inept.

I personally think if we had a passrush and a solid LT last season we would have won the Superbowl. Rod Graves is no dummy. He knows what this team needs to win. This year he needs to go out and get those players. Our weaknesses were so glaring this past year that even a (caveman) would know them. Pun intended. I think we still will win our division this year but I would like to see us win the Superbowl while we have a team that can do it with just a couple of additions.

 

[CardLogic]

The Cards could continue to have a great value if they'd signed Dansby to an extension after 2006 (14 games, 69 tackles, 8 sacks, 4 FFs). It's what they did with Dockett and with Q. That's what you do with core players. Instead, they chose to wait and dug themselves into their current hole.

Of course, had the Cardinals done this, they would be getting great value. But then they would also have the headache of an additional disgruntled player feeling he was unappreciated and undervalued, bitching for a new contract when he still had two or three years to play on his current contract.

 

[Duckjake]

I agree with you.

Can anyone think of a team that got to the SB based on FA. Maybe the Saints should be considered since Brees was a FA pick up and the well documented (by Mitch) D acquisitions this past off season.

Maybe the Cards as well since KW was a FA pick up.

That would be an interesting situation. Pass on all your draft picks and just sign a bunch of free agents like they do in baseball.

But, like most cliches, you don't win a Conference Championship solely through the draft or solely through free agency. You have to have a combination of both. Like K9 implies, in league scouting is just as important as college scouting.

The Warner and Brees Super Bowls really emphasize how QB driven the NFL is now. Of the last 18 Super Bowls only 2 have been won by a team without a top QB. 3 I guess if you count the Steelers winning despite Big Ben's performance in Super Bowl XL. Before he became impossible to tackle.

Look at the list: Young,Aikman (3),Farve,Elway(2),Warner,Brady(3),BenR(2),PManning,EManning and Brees.

 

[CardLogic]

I think we all can agree this team has come along way in the last ten years. But after the great year we had making it to the Superbowl, we had a couple of weaknesses to address. We needed a passrush and a LT the most followed by another RB and a TE. We went out and drafted our runningback (Beanie) and signed a CB (Bryant McFadden). Our two glaring weaknesses LT and passrush were not taken care of. Those are the two areas that again this year we need to address. If the team is serious about winning this year we will see these areas taken care of. If both areas are not taken care of again then I think everybody can agree the front office is being inept.

I personally think if we had a passrush and a solid LT last season we would have won the Superbowl. Rod Graves is no dummy. He knows what this team needs to win. This year he needs to go out and get those players. Our weaknesses were so glaring this past year that even a (caveman) would know them. Pun intended. I think we still will win our division this year but I would like to see us win the Superbowl while we have a team that can do it with just a couple of additions.

I don't disagree with you. However there is a caveat.

If the Cardinals had done as you suggest and aquired a LT and a pass rush specialist through FA (one may argue they did address those areas through the 2009 draft), there is still no guarantee that the outcome of this past season would have been any different. After all they did address those very positions through FA the prior year (Laboy and Gandy). It wasn't good enough then either; they got to the dance but didn't come home with the girl...

I guess my point is that we can always find fault with how things are being done, it comes with being a fan and anything less than the Championship is failure. But it's not as though the team is doing nothing; maybe they haven't done enough or what they have done hasn't brought desired results. But it has not been for lack of trying.

 

[Catfish]

So you dont feel the need to take part in the draft this year by trading away all of our draft picks for RFA's?

C'mon Joe, Of course I feel the need to take a large part in the draft. I just don't believe in drafting to fill needed positions. I believe that the BEST way to build is to use Free Agency to replace need, and use the draft to go BPA to build depth.

This year, there are a larger number of (decent), not overpriced players available in free agency. Some of them should be talented enough to fill some gaping holes in our defense, (provided we can be pro-active enough to get them signed). I am just saying that with the money we have available through losing Kurt, (and) the money available for potentially losing Dansby, and maybe even Rolle, we should be able to sign a couple of them at a REASONABLE price. This could go a long way toward making our defense better, then we could use the draft to put some quality and young depth on that side of the ball too.

The really critical part of this is what we choose to do in free agency. I am just saying that Graves has not helped our ability to draw these free agents, due to his apparent lack of direction and indecisiveness in the past, and him having the intent to conduct business as usual, leaves me feeling somewhat fearful about our chances of making a couple of BADLY NEEDED FA signings.

To me, it would be a terrible shame to miss out on the opportunity to go out and get a couple of these valuable pieces just because Graves is waiting for the time to be right, or for the feasibility of doing so is not yet clear to him.

Clearly, however our offense is structured this year, with Leinart potentially at the helm, we will more than likely score less often than we did with Kurt at QB. In order to keep winning, we need to replace those potentially lost points on offense with a stronger defense that allows fewer points scored against us. That means we need to address this defense, (and still put a solid back-up QB on this roster), through free agency. I am saying that if Graves conducts business as usual, we miss out on several fleeting opportunities. We have big needs at ILB and NT. We also have moderate needs at OLB and CB and FS.

Even then, I would probably use at least 4 and maybe even 5 draft picks on the defensive side of the ball.

So tell me, what part of this line of thinking is irrational????

 

[40yearfan]

You know me, I am not afriad to pull punches with the FO and Graves. Where I get lost is the conspiracy theories, untruths, and hand wringing about losing players or coaches before they are even lost.

Believe me Joe. I wasn't referring to you in that post. You are the voice of reason in the wilderness.

 

[NuttinButTDs]

I hear folks saying that the money that is available. When there is no ceiling or floor in the salary, then the money that is available could be zero or infinity. Unlike previous years, where we had to spend certain amount, what is the B family's ceiling. All GM's hands are tied by the owner(s) of the franchise.

The million dollar question (pun intended), how much are the Cards willing to spend.

 

[Catfish]

I hear folks saying that the money that is available. When there is no ceiling or floor in the salary, then the money that is available could be zero or infinity. Unlike previous years, where we had to spend certain amount, what is the B family's ceiling. All GM's hands are tied by the owner(s) of the franchise.

The million dollar question (pun intended), how much are the Cards willing to spend.

I am not advocating anything like exceeding last years cap. I am saying that there should be half of Kurt's 15 mil roster bonus, and about 5 mil in salary there. There should be another 9 mil salary in Dansby's case. McFadden is due to get 5 mil if he is kept, which would be available if he is cut. Rolle is possibly another 5 mill if he goes away, which could easily happen. I am saying that we have some money under last years cap to use for FA signings, and should take advantage of it with the abundance of RFA's available in this FA market.

 

[Mulli]

I am not advocating anything like exceeding last years cap. I am saying that there should be half of Kurt's 15 mil roster bonus, and about 5 mil in salary there. There should be another 9 mil salary in Dansby's case. McFadden is due to get 5 mil if he is kept, which would be available if he is cut. Rolle is possibly another 5 mill if he goes away, which could easily happen. I am saying that we have some money under last years cap to use for FA signings, and should take advantage of it with the abundance of RFA's available in this FA market.

So which players do you think the Cards should give up their draft picks for?

 

[kerouac9]

I think we all can agree this team has come along way in the last ten years. But after the great year we had making it to the Superbowl, we had a couple of weaknesses to address. We needed a passrush and a LT the most followed by another RB and a TE. We went out and drafted our runningback (Beanie) and signed a CB (Bryant McFadden). Our two glaring weaknesses LT and passrush were not taken care of. Those are the two areas that again this year we need to address. If the team is serious about winning this year we will see these areas taken care of. If both areas are not taken care of again then I think everybody can agree the front office is being inept.

I personally think if we had a passrush and a solid LT last season we would have won the Superbowl. Rod Graves is no dummy. He knows what this team needs to win. This year he needs to go out and get those players. Our weaknesses were so glaring this past year that even a (caveman) would know them. Pun intended. I think we still will win our division this year but I would like to see us win the Superbowl while we have a team that can do it with just a couple of additions.

I'm sorry, but did you see premier pass rush help or lockdown blind side defenders either where we picked in the draft or in free agency last year or this one? Who were they?

The Cards did address LT and pass rush in the draft. They drafted Herman Johnson (who frees up either Levi Brown or Brandon Keith to play LT) and they drafted two OLBs. It's not Graves' fault that Cody Brown suffered a season-ending injury in training camp.

There's knowing where your weaknesses are and actually being able to do something about them. As an example, the Packers have needed an infusion of youth at OT (left and right) for at least three years. But when you look at who was available when they were drafting, there was never value. Need has to be tempered with BPA.

 

[Zeno]

K9 and Joe have this argument won hands down...it is not even close.

It is pretty early in the offseason to press the panic button.

 

[Duckjake]

K9 and Joe have this argument won hands down...it is not even close.

It is pretty early in the offseason to press the panic button.

On the other hand we have a lot more concerns this off season than the last two.

We just had our starting QB retire, one of our most respected defensive players retire, are going to lose our starting WILB with no replacement on the roster and another of our key players at OLB and our best NT is 35 years old.

In addition our team has shown an alarming propensity to take the rest of the day off after getting a big lead, had six games out of 18 where they allowed opponents to rush for 160 yards or more compared to only 2 out of 20 the season before, and gave up 90 points in two playoff games.

 

[Cheesebeef]

everyone makes good points here.

that is all.

 

[Mitch]

I dont have my old spreadsheets but I can give you estimates.

First of all when reports showed up that we had 40 something million in cap space a few weeks before free agency everyone went on their usually free agent feeding frenzy, we need to sign so and so and 10 of them. Even though I put it into perspective for everyone. That perspective was yes we have 40 mill in cap but the day free agency hit most of that money would be gone. We only had 28 players under contract, that is a lot of players to re-sign. We had to pay some hefty RFA tenders, some EFA tenders. After Wilson, Warner, Haggans, RFA's, EFA's, bonuses paid out that were due, and some other players we re-signed we had a total of 7 mill in cap space. We did not have a lot of money to sign on free agents and were ranked #8 in total salary paid out in 2009. In no way shape or form can it be said they have been cheap since Wiz got here.

McFadden took up 5 of that remaining 7 or so, and for all the hyperbole about the guy he was without a shadow of a doubt an upgrade allowing 6 fewer TD's then his predecessor, allowed 2 fewer completetion percents, allowed 1 less yards per catch, and a whopping 23 fewer passer rating points. He and Davis(who also likes to get slammed) were also apart of a drastic Passing D turn around from the year before (minus two horrible playoff games one marred by injuries mind you). Our D as a whole allowed 6 fewer points per game from 2008 to 2009. Allowed 14 fewer passing TD's then previous year, allowed 5 fewer completion percentages, and held QB's to 20+ fewer qb rating points per game. I know the playoff games taints that and its what is most fresh in the memory and it was drastic, but that does not erase the drastic Passing D and Pass Rush improvement our team made in the regular season.

All good points, for sure. However...

You act as if the Cardinals had no other choices of how to manage last year's cap. For example, if you don't f-tag Dansby and you trade Boldin you are freeing up another $14M. Imagine what the Cardinals could have done with that $14M!

They could have signed LB Larry Foote, FS Darren Sharper and CB Jabarri Greer (who by the way was the #2 ranked UFA CB behind only Dunta Robinson per Scout.com...thus refuting a previous claim you made about McFadden being rated higher...the rap on McFadden was that he was much better in zone coverage behind the Steeler's fierce pass rush..which by now has been confirmed by his struggles in man this year)...and STILL had $5M to sign other free agents.

Plus, they could have gotten a player or two for Boldin if they were pro-active. There was one report where they were offered a player and a 3rd round draft pick. It makes you wonder who that player was. But that was just from another team coming to them. Imagine if the Cardinals had pushed to get the player of players they wanted.

The thing is the Cardinals squandered a golden opportunity to seize the momentum they gained from going to the Super Bowl...there was a bandwagon for FAs to jump on had the Cardinals been pro-active. Instead they twiddled their thumbs with Warner, they opted to put $9.4M eggs into Dansby's basket, and as RG is famous for saying "not be all that heavy into free agency" and everything fell out of whack.

Snakester put it best today...coming out of the Super Bowl the Cardinals had some glaring weaknesses to address at T and WOLB/DE...and they went status quo and tried to draft for those needs, which we all know is a totally iffy proposition to have rookies try to be instant impact payers let alone play at all...and are less apt to as 2nd-7th rounders.

With Warner back in the fold and a two year window to try to win a Super Bowl, the way the Cardinals FO reacted was downright poor. It was poor management all the way around.

In a way, Joe, your post even more confirmed the very reason why the Cardinals' FO is so ineffective...they cannot be pro-active or creative enough to put the major pieces together.

 

[Mitch]

K9 and Joe have this argument won hands down...it is not even close.

It is pretty early in the offseason to press the panic button.

This is a debate and a matter of opinions, not a competition.

I was on the same topic last year and the year before. This is nothing new and it isn't the panic button. It is what it is, "business as usual."

Well that "business as usual" last year (that I and others were outspoken on then) resulted in the Cardinals giving up 90 points in two playoff games. It is what it is. Make all the excuses you want. We had the QB to win us the Lomardi and he played his heart out...but he didn't have a chance with the putrid effort and schemes the defense put up.

 

[Catfish]

This is a debate and a matter of opinions, not a competition.

I was on the same topic last year and the year before. This is nothing new and it isn't the panic button. It is what it is, "business as usual."

Well that "business as usual" last year (that I and others were outspoken on then) resulted in the Cardinals giving up 90 points in two playoff games. It is what it is. Make all the excuses you want. We had the QB to win us the Lomardi and he played his heart out...but he didn't have a chance with the putrid effort and schemes the defense put up.

Well said Mitch ----- I would feel a whole lot better had Graves just said that he would be working hard to beef up the defense, instead of indicating that it would be business as usual. In my opinion, if he can't recognize that there is a deficiency there, he can't possibly fix it.