The Cardinals Front Office: To Be Or Not To Be

[joeshmo]

To think that if the team were better that Warner would have placed any less responsibility or pressure upon himself is to discount the man and his accomplishments.

Didnt even think of it in those terms, and you are absolutely correct.

 

[seesred]

I don't have a crystal ball but, when you look at this team over the last 3 years you see improments all over the place. First the record, 8-8, 9-7 super bowl, 10-6 playoffs. Graves resigned AW and Fitz without fan fare. They paid the coaches better than most teams when Whiz got what he wanted and needed. As far as Dansby and Q are concerned the question remains out there as too did we wait to long to sign them or lose them? It takes two to tango (old fashion dance).

The drafts have gone when well and I believe that Cody Brown would have made an impact this past year if not for injuries. Between FA and this years draft I suspect you will see a heavy finger on defesive players. Our defense really fell apart at the end of our season. Injuries mostly and tired legs did us in against NO.

I'll give the FO some rope and rate the offseason after draft day. The biggest change will be at QB. Lienart and who? Who will replace Karlos. Will DD be signed and will Rolle get extended? Who playes CB beside Cromarti? Does coach believe we have a starter in Tolar? It shopuld be fun to think about all the possabilitys. One thing you can count on for sure. Whiz is not a loser and the team will always catch up to what he needs for the whole plan to work!

GBR
40

 

[joeshmo]

You are wasting your breath Rugby. When these guys start ravaging Graves, it's like a self feeding frenzy. Common sense goes out the window and past accomplishments are quickly forgotten.

This off-season has barely begun and already they are hounding him because he hasn't worked any miracles. We haven't played a game yet, but all of a sudden we are going to be lucky to win 8 games. I guess this is the result of the Cards past history, but anyone thinking there is even any relationship between this team and the Cards organization of 5 years ago hasn't got a clue.

You know me, I am not afriad to pull punches with the FO and Graves. Where I get lost is the conspiracy theories, untruths, and hand wringing about losing players or coaches before they are even lost.

 

[Pariah]

You and Mitch have both said this and it just might be the biggest assumption/consiperacy without even a glimmer of proof I have ever seen on this board to date.

Occams Razor here people. The guy is going to be 38, coming off of a concusion that scared the crap out of him and his family, listening to a wife and 7 kids who have been asking him to retire for a few years now. Hmmmm, which sounds like the most logical reason for him retiring.

I was about to post almost the exact same thing in regards to the original post.

Mitch, I agree with just about everything you've said in this one, but to assume Warner would still be playing if different personnel moves were made last year is a very big leap. I think the man faced his own fragility in a game played by giants and decided that he had a lot of life to live outside of football and wanted to do so without impediment.

 

[ajcardfan]

Well, Mitch, before the 2007 season you would've cut Warner and before the 2008 season you would've traded Fitz for Vincent Jackson.

Our front office isn't "great", but I'll take their patience over your aggressiveness any day of the week.

 

[Shane]

I don't know why there is so much talk about Warner, and Matt, and Whis, etc. Games will be won or lost on the defensive side of the football. Is there anyone that doesn't think that Matt can score 25ppg with this offensive unit?

:raiseshand:

Warner lead this offense to an average of 23 points a game this past season. You honestly feel that Leinart will top that? Honestly??

Warner lead us to 26 a game the year of our SB run. So what you are essentially saying is that you expect no drop off whatsoever with Matt at the helm? Good luck with that.

 

[Stout]

I've bashed Rod Graves and the FO just as much as, if not more than, anyone on this board. I've also been incredibly nice to them over the past two seasons, because they have been winning season. This offseason is put up or shut up time. If we lose Rolle and Dansby, do nothing to replace them but draft a few guys (not top-talent guys--I'd take McClain for Dansby), then all the hate will come back. Right now it doesn't look like we have a cohesive plan to deal with all of the issues facing this team. They have the benefit of the doubt from me---FOR NOW--so I hope they don't squander it.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

You want proof, Joe? Did you listen to KW's impromptu interview in the locker room the day after the Saints' game? He spelled it all out right then and there without announcing officially that he was retiring. He said he found more and more THIS year as the year went on that he was not having the fun he normally had playing the game. He talked about the pressure he felt...he talked about it becoming a grind...he talked about getting out on the top while he was still playing at a high level...that he dreaded the scrutiny/criticisms he received every time he had a bad game (curious he was thinking about that---it caught me by surprise because I thought he had a sensational year---especially exerting his dominance on the road unlike no other Cardinals' QB EVER---and when he talked about dreading the scrutiny...the logical understanding of this is that he was putting so much pressure on himself to carry the team).

I agree with all that.

I a must have mis-judged the tone of your original post. Sounded to me that you were blaming the front office and lack of talent on Warner retiring.

Cause I don't care who the coaches are, and how good the talent around your QB is, the pressure is always going to be there, the workload, the scrutiny, etc., etc. is never going away.

So, it is understandable under those terms.

To say he has no talent around him while throwing the ball to Larry Fitzgerald, Steve Breaston, Anquan Boldin, and Early Doucet is something I am not going to agree with.

 

[az jam]

The Super Bowl was less than two weeks ago and we have a thread ripping the front office for inactivity???? Furthermore Kurt Warner retired because the FO didn't go out and sign enough high quality free agents last year after coming off a Super Bowl appearance?? (There were so many available and we were loaded with money after franchising Dansby, giving Kurt a huge contract and extending A Wilson....??)

This has to be the dumbest thread I have ever see on the board.

 

[Pariah]

I a must have mis-judged the tone of your original post. Sounded to me that you were blaming the front office and lack of talent on Warner retiring.

That's what I thought, too, based on this:

Had the FO done so last year and made a decisive and concerted effort to improve the team's chances to win a Super Bowl, Kurt Warner, more than likely, would still be playing football.

If I misunderstood, I apologize.

 

[joeshmo]

I agree with all that.

I a must have mis-judged the tone of your original post. Sounded to me that you were blaming the front office and lack of talent on Warner retiring.

Cause I don't care who the coaches are, and how good the talent around your QB is, the pressure is always going to be there, the workload, the scrutiny, etc., etc. is never going away.

So, it is understandable under those terms.

To say he has no talent around him while throwing the ball to Larry Fitzgerald, Steve Breaston, Anquan Boldin, and Early Doucet is something I am not going to agree with.

I agree. That pressure is the same pressure every starting QB puts on their shoulders. You dont think Brees and Manning feel the same way.

Still dont see how you can make the leap from a QB who has pressure on his shoulders to he quit because the FO didnt sign Jabari Greer? Evil Kinevil couldnt jump that leap of logic.

All Mitch's post proved was that Warner was like all the other starting QB's in the NFL and that he didnt feel like doing it at the age of 38.

 

[Mitch]

Well, Mitch, before the 2007 season you would've cut Warner and before the 2008 season you would've traded Fitz for Vincent Jackson.

Our front office isn't "great", but I'll take their patience over your aggressiveness any day of the week.

You know, AJ, I find snide comments like this infuriating. If that was your intention, then congratulations, you succeeded.

There were contexts to both scenarios that you don't have the decency to point out:

1. Most of us on the board were of the belief that Warner was washed up, so to single me out on that one is lame. In my own defense, however, I did say in 2008 I was curious to see how Warner would respond to Whiz, saying that if any coach could help him it was Whiz...and before the 2009 season I and Red Desert were about the two posters on the board who was arguing that Warner, not Leinart, should be the starter. I even went as far as to say the Cardinals would be Super Bowl contenders with Warner and was nearly laughed off the board.

2. As for the Fitz scenario...at the time the context is similar to what the Cardinals are facing with Antrel Rolle right now, only in Fitz's case it was going to cost the team $16M for the last year of his deal. At the time, it should be noted as well, that Fitz had not yet played the lights-out way he did last year...thus, at the thought of having to dish out $16M of that year's salary cap for one player I proposed the Vincent Jackson deal (it was with the IF the Cardinals could not get Fitz to redo his deal, and if you recall Fitz waited a good while to make a decision on that one). BTW, Vincent Jackson isn't exactly a wet dishrag, is he?

I am not always right, but please have the decency to not take my posts out of contexts. I don't do that to you or anyone else on this board. Peace.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

1. Most of us on the board were of the belief that Warner was washed up, so to single me out on that one is lame. In my own defense, however, I did say in 2008 I was curious to see how Warner would respond to Whiz, saying that if any coach could help him it was Whiz...and before the 2009 season I and Red Desert were about the two posters on the board who was arguing that Warner, not Leinart, should be the starter..

True that. That was an epic debate. I was in the Leinart camp.

You got to giver props to Moklerman too, he was all over the board on that one.

I even went as far as to say the Cardinals would be Super Bowl contenders with Warner and was nearly laughed off the board...

I didn't laugh but I sure thought you were crazy....I mean the Cardinals in the Superbowl ? Like that would ever happ.....oh wait. LOL, I almost still don't believe it to this day. I honestly thought that Warner's "re-surgence" was a fluke. That he would turn into "Bad Warner again".

Never thought I would be so incredibly happy to be so incredibly wrong.

 

[ajcardfan]

You know, AJ, I find snide comments like this infuriating. If that was your intention, then congratulations, you succeeded.

There were contexts to both scenarios that you don't have the decency to point out:

1. Most of us on the board were of the belief that Warner was washed up, so to single me out on that one is lame. In my own defense, however, I did say in 2008 I was curious to see how Warner would respond to Whiz, saying that if any coach could help him it was Whiz...and before the 2009 season I and Red Desert were about the two posters on the board who was arguing that Warner, not Leinart, should be the starter. I even went as far as to say the Cardinals would be Super Bowl contenders with Warner and was nearly laughed off the board.

2. As for the Fitz scenario...at the time the context is similar to what the Cardinals are facing with Antrel Rolle right now, only in Fitz's case it was going to cost the team $16M for the last year of his deal. At the time, it should be noted as well, that Fitz had not yet played the lights-out way he did last year...thus, at the thought of having to dish out $16M of that year's salary cap for one player I proposed the Vincent Jackson deal (it was with the IF the Cardinals could not get Fitz to redo his deal, and if you recall Fitz waited a good while to make a decision on that one). BTW, Vincent Jackson isn't exactly a wet dishrag, is he?

I am not always right, but please have the decency to not take my posts out of contexts. I don't do that to you or anyone else on this board. Peace.

Sorry Mitch, but i very rarely have the time to type out several paragraphs in a post to fully explain each point. And, I don't have the time now. I was simply trying to point out, as quickly as possible, that you have always promoted aggressive roster moves to what I consider to be an extreme. An aggressiveness that would've hurt this team in many times and many ways over the years had any of it actually happened.

You shouldn't get "infuriated". This is supposed to be for fun.

 

[red desert]

Finally! Someone acknowledges my true genius.

 

[WildBB]

I agree. That pressure is the same pressure every starting QB puts on their shoulders. You dont think Brees and Manning feel the same way.

Still dont see how you can make the leap from a QB who has pressure on his shoulders to he quit because the FO didnt sign Jabari Greer? Evil Kinevil couldnt jump that leap of logic.
All Mitch's post proved was that Warner was like all the other starting QB's in the NFL and that he didnt feel like doing it at the age of 38.

Classic.

Warner needed that last big payday. He got it, so it's say la vie for the 38 yr. old. Look at how Favre got beat up. It's a young mans game, pure and simple. His mrs. couldn't take him getting whipped up on anymore either, so I'm sure that went into the decision to hang 'em up.

 

[Mitch]

I agree. That pressure is the same pressure every starting QB puts on their shoulders. You dont think Brees and Manning feel the same way.

Still dont see how you can make the leap from a QB who has pressure on his shoulders to he quit because the FO didnt sign Jabari Greer? Evil Kinevil couldnt jump that leap of logic.

All Mitch's post proved was that Warner was like all the other starting QB's in the NFL and that he didnt feel like doing it at the age of 38.

At least you are consistent Joe. You've been defending the FO the whole year because you saw no real players worth signing in last year's FA pool, and were not in favor of making any trades or doing any creative draft maneuverings.

So I point out in rebuttal to your claim that the Cardinals' FO did the best with what they had that players like FS Darren Sharper and CB Jabarri Greer were out there...so was LB Larry Foote and others...but, as far as you are concerned the one signing of CB Bryant McFadden was all they could really do.

If the Cardinals' secondary last year was DRC, Sharper, Wilson and Greer, maybe we'd be hoisting the Lombardi....and maybe Kurt Warner wouldn't have had to feel all the pressure in the world to outscore every defense.

Put it this way: if the Saints had not signed Darren Sharper, do you think they win the Super Bowl? The Saints didn't even make the playoffs the year before without him. He galvanized that defense. You need guys like that.

And all it took was $1.7M!!! Think the Cardinals could have outbid that?

Don't you realize what a luxury it is for a QB to have a defense to fall back on every now and then?

Warner said in that impromptu interview that it was well before the concussion that he was losing the fun of the game this year...yeah, remember why?

At 1-2, even Jimmy Johnson was sticking a fork in the Cardinals.

It was Warner who then took the team on his back and put up first half performances alone (knowing that he HAD to jump on teams early and often to give the team the best chance to win) that were sensational...how about Warner's first half performances on the road? At Jacksonville, at Seattle, at the Giants, at Chicago, at St. Louis? His QB ratings were off the charts.

What do you think the Packer playoff game was like for him? He went and played what was by accounts a flawless game...and in the second half he knew if he didn't drive the team down and score the team could still easily lose the game the way the defense was playing.

He couldn't even relax when Leinart when in the game up 21 points.

This was the pressure he played with for the last 2 1/2 years, and it took its toll. As he said himself at his retirement press conference, he worried that if he came back, he wouldn't be able to play at the level he's been accustomed to playing.

He even said, "I could do this physically..." but I could not do this mentally or emotionally.

I took him at his word.

 

[Mitch]

Sorry Mitch, but i very rarely have the time to type out several paragraphs in a post to fully explain each point. And, I don't have the time now. I was simply trying to point out, as quickly as possible, that you have always promoted aggressive roster moves to what I consider to be an extreme. An aggressiveness that would've hurt this team in many times and many ways over the years had any of it actually happened.

You shouldn't get "infuriated". This is supposed to be for fun.

Thanks, AJ. I appreciate your response. This is for fun, but no one likes to be taken out of context, because it makes them look very very stupid...and just having read several times this is "the stupidest post I've ever read" I already had my shackles up.

 

[kerouac9]

Conservative moves in free agency moved us from a 4-12 team to a 10-6 team who's won two straight NFC West titles. So the best decision for the franchise to make is to suddenly become aggressive in free agency and the trade market?

The Saints didn't sign Darren Sharper until March 18 last year. That's almost three weeks into the free agency period. Isn't that exactly what the Cards do? Jabari Greer had 4 career INTs and signed a deal worth more per-year than Bryant McFadden got. And they still waited six days before making that signing.

I'm not sure that I see the evidence that the aggressive personnel strategy that Mitch is asking for works. Sure, it gets headlines in February and March, but wouldn't we all be happier getting headlines in December and January?

If the Cards sign NT Fred Robbins (Giants) in free agency, then I'm going to be pretty happy as long as they pick up another 2-3 bodies to take into camp. It's the strategy that got us this far.

Now, if you want to bash Graves over the fact that his lack of action on contracts has hamstrung the team heading into free agency for three years running? Then I'll be on board. But I really don't have a problem with how they manage FA visits.

 

[WildBB]

Put it this way: if the Saints had not signed Darren Sharper, do you think they win the Super Bowl? The Saints didn't even make the playoffs the year before without him. He galvanized that defense. You need guys like that.

And all it took was $1.7M!!! Think the Cardinals could have outbid that?

With the newly signed AW and Rolle allready in place, I'm sure there was little interest by either side. It takes two to make a deal. But to me, last yr. it made sense for them not to pursue someone like Sharper. This yr. would be a different story.

I think the Warner situation last off season became the FO's sole priority following the SB run, and were hamstrung somewhat by it.

Obviously Greer would have been a better option than McFadden and I'm sure in hindsight the org. figured since he had playoff experience, he'd be up to the task for at least one season. Maybe it's poor planning by not looking at the longer term option, but did they have that luxury with Warner commanding a 17M+ sb last yr?

And Toller along with another draftee might be that long term option at a great rate.

 

[Mitch]

True that. That was an epic debate. I was in the Leinart camp.

You got to giver props to Moklerman too, he was all over the board on that one.




I didn't laugh but I sure thought you were crazy....I mean the Cardinals in the Superbowl ? Like that would ever happ.....oh wait. LOL, I almost still don't believe it to this day. I honestly thought that Warner's "re-surgence" was a fluke. That he would turn into "Bad Warner again".

Never thought I would be so incredibly happy to be so incredibly wrong.

Thanks for simply being respectful and kind, Rugby. What I love about your posts is that you aren't afraid to stick your neck out...which is why I really enjoyed your roster analyses last year. I hope you do them again.

And thanks for remembering Moklerman's persistence. He was clutch.

 

[Mitch]

Conservative moves in free agency moved us from a 4-12 team to a 10-6 team who's won two straight NFC West titles. So the best decision for the franchise to make is to suddenly become aggressive in free agency and the trade market?

The Saints didn't sign Darren Sharper until March 18 last year. That's almost three weeks into the free agency period. Isn't that exactly what the Cards do? Jabari Greer had 4 career INTs and signed a deal worth more per-year than Bryant McFadden got. And they still waited six days before making that signing.

I'm not sure that I see the evidence that the aggressive personnel strategy that Mitch is asking for works. Sure, it gets headlines in February and March, but wouldn't we all be happier getting headlines in December and January?

If the Cards sign NT Fred Robbins (Giants) in free agency, then I'm going to be pretty happy as long as they pick up another 2-3 bodies to take into camp. It's the strategy that got us this far.

Now, if you want to bash Graves over the fact that his lack of action on contracts has hamstrung the team heading into free agency for three years running? Then I'll be on board. But I really don't have a problem with how they manage FA visits.

I would be more inclined to agree with you K9 if the defense wasn't still in such a shambles. Don't forget either about their meltdown in the NFC Championship game with big lead, that it took a precision drive from KW and TH's clutch 4th down run and several plays later his TD to run out the clock and score the come from behind game winner.

Look at it this way...after the defensive meltdown in the Super Bowl, the Cardinals' answer was:

Fire Pendy...replace him in-house with Davis. Dubious results.
Re-sign Adrian Wilson before the last year of his contract: good move, except Wilson wasn't used properly by Davis and is at times a liability in his role..
Re-sign Clark Haggans: good move. In fact, maybe the best move of the bunch.
Sign CB Bryant McFadden and DT Rodney Leslie. Busts.
Draft: Cody Brown, Rashad Johnson, Greg Toler and Will Davis: maybe decent down the line, but no one of immediate help here.

If this is evidence of patient thinking, I cannot embrace the philosophy especially now knowing we had one last year with Warner to make a run at the Lombardi.

 

[kerouac9]

I would be more inclined to agree with you K9 if the defense wasn't still in such a shambles. Don't forget either about their meltdown in the NFC Championship game with big lead, that it took a precision drive from KW and TH's clutch 4th down run and several plays later his TD to run out the clock and score the come from behind game winner.

Look at it this way...after the defensive meltdown in the Super Bowl, the Cardinals' answer was:

Fire Pendy...replace him in-house with Davis. Dubious results.
Re-sign Adrian Wilson before the last year of his contract: good move, except Wilson wasn't used properly by Davis and is at times a liability in his role..
Re-sign Clark Haggans: good move. In fact, maybe the best move of the bunch.
Sign CB Bryant McFadden and DT Rodney Leslie. Busts.
Draft: Cody Brown, Rashad Johnson, Greg Toler and Will Davis: maybe decent down the line, but no one of immediate help here.

If this is evidence of patient thinking, I cannot embrace the philosophy especially now knowing we had one last year with Warner to make a run at the Lombardi.

You certainly didn't think that Leslie was going to be a bust here. :

DE Rodney Leslie, a big rugged interior lineman who has the strength to bottle up the run and collapse the pocket

McFadden was better at preventing the big play than Rod Hood was. I wasn't totally happy with his performance, but it is by definition an upgrade. Don't forget that Campbell was also an upgrade over Antonio Smith and the Cards invested serious defensive resources through the draft. It's not Graves' fault that Brown suffered a season-ending injury in the preseason.

The patience, no-big-name philosophy is the one that is practiced by the last four teams appearing in the Super Bowl. It's hard to argue with that kind of success.

 

[NuttinButTDs]

And all it took was $1.7M!!! Think the Cardinals could have outbid that?

.

Just so I can understand this line of debate and to have a complete picture, somebody please help (Joe ??)

1. What amount of money did we have at the start?
2. How much did we spend on our own players (Warner et al)
3. How much money did we have for FA after we signed our own players.
4. How much did we spend on FA from other teams and when
4. When did NO sign these players.

My only beef with the FO is their lack of speed in getting deals done. I think they have tried to spend the money but are so slow that the good ones are gone.

 

[Shane]

Not that I am in favor of it. But FYI the Cards can absolutely go after one big $$ FA with no repercussions no matter what Dansby does. This explains it perfectly. Salary in first year must be more than 5.5 million.

http://blog.azcardinals.com/2010/02/18/learning-about-the-labor-situation/