The Decline and Fall of Amare

[AzStevenCal]

Amare looked like he gave up the last couple of minutes which was disappointing. However, Amare was outplayed the rest of the game. Gasol owned him. Period. Gasol is the better player period.

Sure, and that is why Gasol has been named to the All NBA teams so often. You keep making excuses for him. Where were your excuses following the All-Star break when pretty much everyone on the planet acknowledged Amare was playing as well as anyone in the game? Why is he suddenly no more than a slightly above average player. Re-watch the game and you'll see it wasn't always Gasol keeping Amare at bay.

Something is off with this guy and I've been aware of it for 14 games now. Gasol was nowhere in sight for 12 of those games. Whether it was Aldridge, Camby, Duncan, Dice or one of the Seven Dwarves Amare has been held in check way too easy.

I'll say again, I could be way off on the Miami thing. But, if he hasn't selected a somewhere else to play than something is wrong with him physically. Maybe he lost too much strength and stamina through his eye injury/surgery/recovery and he's just got nothing left now. Or maybe his knee is acting up again. Or maybe he opted for a poorly planned Vegan diet and has an iron deficiency. Regardless, this is just not the Amare we've seen earlier this year or in previous playoffs.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

Seems like I've heard that rumor before

There's a rumor going around about me and crazy talk?

Steve

 

[Cheesebeef]

Odom has 40 rebounds, to Amare's 9 in the series.

HOLY COW.

Yup, I'm done with this false bravado mental midget. No way he deserves the MAX or anything close to it. He's a one dimensional offensive player who can be held in check against any team in the playoffs who has any kind of size.

 

[Renz]

Odom has 40 rebounds, to Amare's 9 in the series.

It's only 30 to 9.

 

[jagu]

HOLY COW.

Yup, I'm done with this false bravado mental midget. No way he deserves the MAX or anything close to it. He's a one dimensional offensive player who can be held in check against any team in the playoffs who has any kind of size.

Sorry check that its 30, I thought he had 21 today lol.

 

[jagu]

30 to 9 is still a whooping!

 

[Sunburn]

30 to 9 is still a whooping!

Man that Odom's a lucky guy. Except for that wife of his. That's a bit unfortunate.

 

[jagu]

As much as I hate the Lakers, I hate trash talkers who can't back it up. I deal with these kind of people on the basketball court all the time. Odom was very courteous in replying to Amare and Amare was just street baller trash. And Odom's been the better player this series. Respect to him.

 

[Yuma]

They were just talking on NBATV on how Amare is being exposed in this series, and that no GM will give him a max contract. They were saying they would give Bosch a max deal before Amare! It was C Webber and Kevin Mccale discussing this.

 

[Sunburn]

They were just talking on NBATV on how Amare is being exposed in this series, and that no GM will give him a max contract. They were saying they would give Bosch a max deal before Amare!

Amare Stoudemire, playing himself right out of a max deal, just like Joe Johnson.

 

[jagu]

Bosh is better than Amare.. I remember being knocked on this forum for saying that but he is.

 

[Bufalay]

like I said, I'm pretty sure that if I look back at Carter's game back when he was 27, you'll find he had a couple games here and there for the Nets which were really good, but ultimately didn't amount to a hell of beans.

I mean, you listed ONE game from this entire season's playoffs. ONE. You listed NO games from 2008 and whatever he did in the 2007 series was ultimately blunted by the most idiotic move of all time, coming off the bench and getting suspended which basically gave us no shot to win the series.

He did play well against a dog-crap Laker squad though in the first round... but like I said, I'm pretty sure Carter did the same thing for the Nets back in the day.

I listed basically every game from 2007 playoffs. In their 5 games on 2008 against the Spers 33-7, 33-7, 28-11, 7-9, 15-11.

I assumed everyone was in agreement that he hasn't done crap this year in the playoffs, but you made the dumb statement that he hasn't done crap since his surgery which is not true.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Amare Stoudemire, playing himself right out of a max deal, just like Joe Johnson.

The only problem I have with this comparison is that it's really only fair this season. For the past 3 postseasons Amare frequently played like he was arguably the best player in the game. But this postseason he's performed like a very average player (or slightly above average) regardless of opponent.

Steve

 

[Sunburn]

Bosh is better than Amare.. I remember being knocked on this forum for saying that but he is.

After this year's postseason, agreed. I wonder how good Bosh would look playing with Nash.

 

[Sunburn]

The only problem I have with this comparison is that it's really only fair this season. For the past 3 postseasons Amare frequently played like he was arguably the best player in the game. But this postseason he's performed like a very average player (or slightly above average) regardless of opponent.

Steve

Bottomline though is it's true. Before the playoffs, Amare was a lock for a max deal. Now, it's nowhere near a certainty.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I listed basically every game from 2007 playoffs. In their 5 games on 2008 against the Spers 33-7, 33-7, 28-11, 7-9, 15-11.

I assumed everyone was in agreement that he hasn't done crap this year in the playoffs, but you made the dumb statement that he hasn't done crap since his surgery which is not true.

and what happened in Game 1 when he had 33-7 (poopy rebounding game)? He fouled out in OT and left us with nothing on the court and then we lost. Then in Game 2, he had 25 at the half and disappeared in the 2nd half and we got the snot kicked out of us. In Game 3, he had 28-11 in mostly garbage time after the Spurs had already built a 20 point first half lead on us which put us in a 3-0 hole and then Games 4 and 5 speak for themselves.

Basically, he had ZERO impact on that series, played horrific D and was one of the main reasons we got our asses KICKED out of the playoffs in 5 games.

again, I can probably pull up a bunch of games where Vince Carter's pathetic ass had good stats and made no impact on games, just like the games you've shown above.

 

[Bufalay]

Odom has 40 rebounds, to Amare's 9 in the series.

Where did you learn to add?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Bottomline though is it's true. Before the playoffs, Amare was a lock for a max deal. Now, it's nowhere near a certainty.

Well, I know we've all decided I'm insane but I wouldn't rule out a max deal from the Heat. Unless his apparent lack of intensity is the result of a physical issue I really expect him to get paid well in his return to Florida.

Steve

 

[Bufalay]

again, I can probably pull up a bunch of games where Vince Carter's pathetic ass had good stats and made no impact on games, just like the games you've shown above.

Go for it.

 

[Yuma]

Bosh is better than Amare.. I remember being knocked on this forum for saying that but he is.

I was thinking after looking at how small we are compared to the Lakers, that we should spend our bucks going after Bosh and let Amare walk. Lopez looks like he has upside. Bosh can score, and he's a better rebounder than Amare. We need to build to match up against the team we have to get by during the play offs or we will never get to the finals. We have some nice pieces to build with. We have to get younger and bigger.

 

[Sunburn]

Well, I know we've all decided I'm insane but I wouldn't rule out a max deal from the Heat. Unless his apparent lack of intensity is the result of a physical issue I really expect him to get paid well in his return to Florida.

Steve

I'm actually one of the ones with an open ear to your conspiracy theory. Still though, what does it say to Riley that Amare is willing to give less than 100% in the Western Conference Finals just because he's moving on next season. I'll translate. It's saying,"I'm willing to throw the chance of winning a championship to ensure I don't get injured and miss out on money". Not exactly the killer instinct a gm is looking for in a max guy.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm actually one of the ones with an open ear to your conspiracy theory. Still though, what does it say to Riley that Amare is willing to give less than 100% in the Western Conference Finals just because he's moving on next season. I'll translate. It's saying,"I'm willing to throw the chance of winning a championship to ensure I don't get injured and miss out on money". Not exactly the killer instinct a gm is looking for in a max guy.

By the time they get around to negotiating contracts, all he'll really notice is that Amare put up 20 points and 7 rebounds for a team that made it to the conference finals. A bit of a let down, but no matter what though, Riley has to bring in a key free agent or he loses Wade. Paying Amare the max puts an exclamation point on their statement to Dwayne.

And Pat has a big enough ego to believe he can solve the riddle that is Amare. When you look at his physique and athletic gifts, I could see someone deciding there's nothing more than knowledge (coaching) and desire (again, coaching) separating Amare from 1st team All NBA defender. Also, Amare could make it palatable to the Heat fans if Pat really does want to coach again.

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

Sure, and that is why Gasol has been named to the All NBA teams so often. You keep making excuses for him. Where were your excuses following the All-Star break when pretty much everyone on the planet acknowledged Amare was playing as well as anyone in the game? Why is he suddenly no more than a slightly above average player. Re-watch the game and you'll see it wasn't always Gasol keeping Amare at bay.

What the hell are you talking about? Amare was playing great. You keep bring up this last 14 crap. Amare averaged 17.8 the last 14 and 18.9 the previous 14. A whopping 1 PPG difference. He averaged .6 rebounds less in the last 14 versus the previous 14. He is still averaging over 20+ points in the playoffs. He average more rebounds then his average against the Spurs.

Now he is playing against a dominate front line that is better at rebounding, defending and post up play. Amare is the same player he has been. In this series he is up against a superior front line. I just don't understand how you don't get that.

That stats don't back the picture that your trying to paint. Like I said before, Amare was Amare the last 14 games. There was no monumental drop off. Down the stretch of the season everyone was already in playoff mode fighting for spots in the west. As we all know things tighten up down the stretch. That is exactly what I think happened with those very slight differences.

Amare has always had trouble defending. Amare has always had long stretches of inconsistency rebounding. It's not like he became a great defender since all star break. They said he was playing better. However, I think the Suns were playing better TEAM defense more then Amare or any one player individually.

I'll say again, I could be way off on the Miami thing. But, if he hasn't selected a somewhere else to play than something is wrong with him physically. Maybe he lost too much strength and stamina through his eye injury/surgery/recovery and he's just got nothing left now. Or maybe his knee is acting up again. Or maybe he opted for a poorly planned Vegan diet and has an iron deficiency. Regardless, this is just not the Amare we've seen earlier this year or in previous playoffs.

Steve

Or your seeing stuff that isn't there. I am not going to try and compare this Amare to pre-injury Amare. We all know he will never be the pre-knee injury Amare. So, I will stick to what I have seen this year. An inconsistent player pre-all star break and pretty damn consistent one since (flaws and all).

Lakers front line is better....PERIOD.

So, who is making excuses for Amare now? Iron deficiency? Stamina? "Loose agreement with Miami"? Your making excuses for him not me. I am simply saying he is playing a group of guys better. That is the opposite of excuses. If you follow the premise that Amare is a very good PF but not the best big man in the NBA then why is it hard to imagine that the Lakers have better big men? I have never contended that Amare was the best. Therefore, the outcome that we are seeing is logical.

I still see Amare going off one game before all is said and done but as typical Amare you won't see it probably 2 games in a row.

 

[AzStevenCal]

What the hell are you talking about? Amare was playing great. You keep bring up this last 14 crap. Amare averaged 17.8 the last 14 and 18.9 the previous 14. A whopping 1 PPG difference. He averaged .6 rebounds less in the last 14 versus the previous 14. He is still averaging over 20+ points in the playoffs. He average more rebounds then his average against the Spurs.

I'm too lazy to do it right now but I'll go back and re-check my numbers. They are much different than yours. When I added and divided I came up with an almost 7 point and 3 rebound difference over the stated time frame. Well, actually I did it using the last 13 games and compared it to the previous 13 so following the 2nd Lakers game I should have said 14 games vs 13 games since it was with 2 games remaining in the season that I noticed the change in Amare (do we get bonus points for run-on sentences?). Those differences almost exactly match the difference between this postseason and his previous postseasons.

I still see Amare going off one game before all is said and done but as typical Amare you won't see it probably 2 games in a row.

That would be typical of Amare during this postseason but not typical of Amare in previous postseasons and certainly not the Amare that awed us the 2nd half of this season. And like I've said, even ignoring the stats, I see a different Amare on the court. It's apparent that you don't.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

What the hell are you talking about? Amare was playing great. You keep bring up this last 14 crap. Amare averaged 17.8 the last 14 and 18.9 the previous 14. A whopping 1 PPG difference. He averaged .6 rebounds less in the last 14 versus the previous 14.

Okay, so I went back and checked my numbers to see if I did something wrong. I used the boxscores from CBSSports and this is what I got: For the last 14 games Amare has averaged 21.6 points and 6.5 rebounds. For the 14 games prior to that he averaged 29.9 points and 9.7 rebounds.

That's a very significant dropoff of 8.3 points per game and 3.2 rebounds. I stand by everthing I've said about Amare's performance of late and contrary to your aggressive denials, the stats absolutely DO back me up.

And when I mention exhaustion, injury and illness I'm not making an excuse for Amare. I'm searching for a reason that his play has dropped off by such a large degree and allowing for the possibility, perhaps even probability, that I'm wrong on the Miami angle.

Steve