The "future" QB conundrum...

[NeverSayDieFan]

Not sure if I spelled it right but I like the word. If not...SUE ME! LOL WAIT! DON'T! Everybody's suing somebody these days!

Anyways, I was thinking the other day about what we might do regarding QB.

Having a "franchise" QB is such a huge deal especially when it comes to advancing in the play-offs. So, the question is: NOW, that we've become GOOD! I know, I know...Hold your horses there, Johnny...But, I honestly get the feeling that this team from mgmt. to coaches to players now "gets it" and the misery days are OVER! At least for the next 5-7 years.

Being good takes us out of the top 10 for the immediate future, and MOST GREAT QB's fall in the 1-5 picking range. NOT saying you can't find a "gem" in the 2nd or even 3rd (ie; Montana, Brees, Lomax, (recently R.Wilson) But I'd think the "odds" are seriously against it.

I've said all this (hope you're still with me. LOL) to say this.

Do we hope to get "lucky" in the later rounds OR get really ballsy and move up to get the QB stud? I'm sure the cost to do so would be very high.

I know the organization is loathe to part with picks these days and for very good reason, BUT, seriously...What should we do??

Hence, the conundrum.

Thoughts?

Mark in SC

A very happy Cardinal fan these days!

 

[slanidrac16]

I think we or any football team should draft a qb every year. It has paid off for teams like the Patriots and Packers.

The Pats as everyone knows got Brady late in the draft. The Packers took Rodgers a couple of years before they had a real need.

I believe if the Cards brass see a QB they think could be a QBOF then they should take him. I don't think a high ranked QB will slip to #20 and I don't see us moving up, but who knows?

If (please note IF) we really like Manziel or McCarron or Carr and they slip down the board to 10 or 12, then maybe we move up. However, BASK would have to be absolutely infatuated with that player for them to do that. I don't think this will happen.

We also have to take in consideration the Cardinals top 100 list. I believe we will take the best player available be it a Qb of a Cb. It won't matter.

I'm liking everything I'm reading about the Garoppolo kid from EIU. He certainly isn't going to be a first round pick. Main concerns about him is hand size (really?) and level of competition. It's the same level of competition Romo played against.

Can we really place the future of this franchise in the hands on Statton or Lindley? We will draft a QB this year. The $65,000 question is when?

 

[unseenaz]

I bet Manziel goes top 10.

The whole "take the best player available whether it's a QB or a CB" I think was fine for when we were a bad team (last several years) but if were serious about competing in the west I think we have needs that need to be addressed early in the draft.

 

[sundevil04]

I think someone in the top 8 like Cleveland will fall in love with him and grab him

 

[Garthshort]

unseenaz, I'm sure you're correct about Johnny M.

 

[sundevil04]

I think we're in a short window to win now with Palmer, Fitz, Danby and Dockett, so I wouldn't be willing to trade the farm to move up into the top 5 to grab one of the big names in this years draft. That rd1 & 2 picks plus some that we'd have to give up in this years draft can go too far in helping us get over the hump this year and next with players that can help us now like a TE or S.

I would be willing to take a shot in a mid/late round on a guy like Zach Mettenberger/Aaron Murray/Taj Boyd/Jimmy Gorropalo/David Fales or Brett Smith. If he doesn't pan out we haven't lost much in using a rd3-5 pick

 

[Jetstream Green]

Johnny will screw up all his interviews, the kid is arrogant and full of himself... but this brash kid can win in the NFL. I can't stand him as a person one bit but he is going to be a franchise QB. Do we trade up for him or another QB? I say no, I say get a pass rusher or a TE if our venture into getting a LT in free agency is accomplished. We have Palmer and he will be better next season with a year under BA's system. The man is not great but can be good for at least the next two years and this defense of ours rocks. You go with what you have as a team and 10-5 in the first year suggests that there is a window no matter how small. You win now

 

[GuernseyCard]

Johnny will screw up all his interviews, the kid is arrogant and full of himself... but this brash kid can win in the NFL. I can't stand him as a person one bit but he is going to be a franchise QB. Do we trade up for him or another QB? I say no, I say get a pass rusher or a TE if our venture into getting a LT in free agency is accomplished. We have Palmer and he will be better next season with a year under BA's system. The man is not great but can be good for at least the next two years and this defense of ours rocks. You go with what you have as a team and 10-5 in the first year suggests that there is a window no matter how small. You win now

Much the same was said about CAM.

 

[Buckybird]

Much the same was said about CAM.

I still say he ain't all the great as a passer!!! Until he proves he is I will stick to my opinion.

 

[WildBB]

Not sure if I spelled it right but I like the word. If not...SUE ME! LOL WAIT! DON'T! Everybody's suing somebody these days!

Anyways, I was thinking the other day about what we might do regarding QB.

Having a "franchise" QB is such a huge deal especially when it comes to advancing in the play-offs. So, the question is: NOW, that we've become GOOD! I know, I know...Hold your horses there, Johnny...But, I honestly get the feeling that this team from mgmt. to coaches to players now "gets it" and the misery days are OVER! At least for the next 5-7 years.

Being good takes us out of the top 10 for the immediate future, and MOST GREAT QB's fall in the 1-5 picking range. NOT saying you can't find a "gem" in the 2nd or even 3rd (ie; Montana, Brees, Lomax, (recently R.Wilson) But I'd think the "odds" are seriously against it.

I've said all this (hope you're still with me. LOL) to say this.

Do we hope to get "lucky" in the later rounds OR get really ballsy and move up to get the QB stud? I'm sure the cost to do so would be very high.

I know the organization is loathe to part with picks these days and for very good reason, BUT, seriously...What should we do??

Hence, the conundrum.

Thoughts?

Mark in SC

A very happy Cardinal fan these days!

With the Cardinals conundrum is the right word when it comes to QB.

The million dollar question, right! There are some possibilities/opportuntities where we draft. First thing to evaluate is the physical attributes and along with that the mental and leadership attributes which are as important. If you hit on both then you have your QBOF candidate.

Next is if that candidate is available to you. Bridgewater and Manzell are likely out of the picture as each is a top 5 pick, mtl. Bortles may be also, but lets say top 10.

Derek Carr next enters the equation as the next most likely possibility for this franchise. You have to evaluate other teams' needs picking in front of you, as well as other teams' needs behind you in the draft who could trade up to take said QB, if indeed that QB meets your org's. criteria. If so, you have to be proactive and do what it takes to meet your teams' need of a QBOF.

That may mean your uncomfortable after pick 13 and your drafting at 20. You do what it takes to add that player at that position (trade up) if your sold on him quite a bit more than another position player you'd more likely add at your regular draft slot pick. This takes evalutation as the draft progresses.

If for instance they evaluate Carr as head and shoulders above anything they could get in Rd's 2 or 3 then you try to make that move. If you think that there is a viable candidate you can address the need with in Rd. 2 that is not that far off from Carr, then you wait and see how it plays out, both in Rd's 1 and 2.

Hope that helped. I believe it's still a position we need to address for the overall trajectory of this franchise. I believe the FO see's it the same. Now is the time.

 

[kerouac9]

It sounds like this particular front office group is pretty enamored with their mid- and late-round draft picks. I think that they can reasonably assume that two first rounders would be more valuable than moving up for a high QB--and this is probably true.

The thing with moving up 5-10 spots is that there's always next year, when there's going to be another crop of QB prospects. It's not worth talking yourself into Blaine Gabbert when you could wait a year and get Ryan Tannehill.

If your ONLY or PRIMARY pressing need is a QB, you're probably drafting high enough that you don't have to trade up. Slandriac is right that a team should regularly draft a mid- or late-round QB just in case you hit the jackpot, but I'd do it every other year, just because it doesn't make sense to use 15% of your income buying lottery tickets (i.e., one of your picks every year).

 

[conraddobler]

I used to say go out and trade for Chase Daniel who was out of Mizzou and played behind Brees for a couple years as a great backup with definite starter potential BUT.... now that KC has him there is NO WAY this organization is ever going to get burnt by Reid again so that's out but I still like the guy as just a huge upgrade in terms of a backup at least.

Playing GM for a bit, i think it's important to always be in the market for QB's. The way I'd play it would be by knowing how crucial it is, I'd always have a front line QB, then I'd have an immediate backup with starter potential and one more as a project.

I also LOVE that our current coach is thought of as a kind of QB guru in how he worked with Luck. Not that it took much to do that but still he won a Super Bowl with Ben too as the OC so he knows what's up at that position.

We had our own version of that with Whiz but he turned out to be too stubborn about insisting on too high a standard on certain things at the expense of TALENT.

I like BA because to me he seems to be more flexible and pragmatic about it which is what you want I think.

Given he's our coach I'd lean heavily on him for input on just continually evaluating the position.

It's the one position IMO that you NEVER stay satisfied at, even if you have Peyton Manning you HAVE to have a backup who can play.

The Colts showed this when Peyton went down, you never know, it's so key that you should be constantly looking to upgrade the three you have on your roster.

It's up to them to fight that off IMO.

Peyton isn't going to lose to ANYONE if he's healthy but what you want is what happened with Young and Montana, someone should be nipping at the old guys heels to the point of near uncomfotablity IMO.

So I'm ok with Carson Palmer as our QB but the heat should be on him at all times from the roster and that's NOT the case now but it needs to be

 

[WildBB]

I used to say go out and trade for Chase Daniel who was out of Mizzou and played behind Brees for a couple years as a great backup with definite starter potential BUT.... now that KC has him there is NO WAY this organization is ever going to get burnt by Reid again so that's out but I still like the guy as just a huge upgrade in terms of a backup at least.

Playing GM for a bit, i think it's important to always be in the market for QB's. The way I'd play it would be by knowing how crucial it is, I'd always have a front line QB, then I'd have an immediate backup with starter potential and one more as a project.

I also LOVE that our current coach is thought of as a kind of QB guru in how he worked with Luck. Not that it took much to do that but still he won a Super Bowl with Ben too as the OC so he knows what's up at that position.

We had our own version of that with Whiz but he turned out to be too stubborn about insisting on too high a standard on certain things at the expense of TALENT.

I like BA because to me he seems to be more flexible and pragmatic about it which is what you want I think.

Given he's our coach I'd lean heavily on him for input on just continually evaluating the position.

It's the one position IMO that you NEVER stay satisfied at, even if you have Peyton Manning you HAVE to have a backup who can play.

The Colts showed this when Peyton went down, you never know, it's so key that you should be constantly looking to upgrade the three you have on your roster.

It's up to them to fight that off IMO.

Peyton isn't going to lose to ANYONE if he's healthy but what you want is what happened with Young and Montana, someone should be nipping at the old guys heels to the point of near uncomfotablity IMO.

So I'm ok with Carson Palmer as our QB but the heat should be on him at all times from the roster and that's NOT the case now but it needs to be

I know how bad Gabbart showed. Do you think if anyone could take him off the scap heap and do something with him it's Arians/Moore??

 

[conraddobler]

I know how bad Gabbart showed. Do you think if anyone could take him off the scap heap and do something with him it's Arians/Moore??

He'd be a great project for any true QB guru.

I'm thinking backup with starter potential, he's a game manager now, the knock on him is he won't take chances with the football.

He's very smart, so he'd fit great on our team as a backup, perfect there, give him a year of holding a clipboard and learning our system and if he wasn't the starter that would be all the better but if the starter got hurt it'd be fun to see what happens because he probably has a better arm than any starter we could get.

I just think that whatever we do it'll make a lot more sense than in the past, this team has that vibe, the whole organization. I was never a Rod Graves fan, looks like Mike finally got it right.

Good times to be a Cardinal fan.

 

[Catfish]

I believe that Slanidrac, K-9, and conraddobler all have made some very good points. My feelings are that you are ALWAYS on the look to improve your QB situation.

We made a huge leap last off-season with the acquisition of Carson Palmer. He was head and shoulders above anyone on our roster, and though aging, he should be available to us for the next few years. He has won over our other players, and they will work tirelessly for him. That is very important. He has the trust of our coaches, and they have been very patient with him, and will continue that tact. He IS our QB of the now, (and the near future) for us. He can take us to a super bowl, (and win it).

That said, we should scour the prospects this year, both in free agency, and in the draft, and IF there is one who piques the interest of the FO and the Staff, we should make an attempt to acquire him in order to upgrade our backups. This study should be made each year, (though a selection should only be made if it is readily apparent that the player would be an actual upgrade). Thus, it should not necessarily be an annual event to take a QB, but the search should be made, and an acquisition made IF it is a believed upgrade to the status that year. Not every year will require an actual acquisition.

This has been pretty much the way New England has operated, and they have been successful. I am confident that Keim and BA have been contemplating this all along, and that they will continue to do so. This is the true function of the FO and scouting department, not just for the QB, but for the entire roster. We made something like 93 player transactions this past season. Each one was designed to improve our roster status, or to replace a player lost to injury etc. I don't see Heim, Licht and BA as ever becoming stagnant in working to improve our roster. That cannot be said of 'any' previous Front Office that I can recall with this team.

 

[Gaddabout]

QB Peyton Manning Denver Broncos 1998: Round 1, Pick 1
QB Drew Brees New Orleans Saints 2001: Round 2, Pick 32
QB Tom Brady New England Patriots 2000: Round 6, Pick 199
QB Cam Newton Carolina Panthers 2011: Round 1, Pick 1
QB Philip Rivers San Diego Chargers 2004: Round 1, Pick 4
QB Russell Wilson Seattle Seahawks 2012: Round 3, Pick 75

There's no perfect way to draft a QB. You just have to have faith that the QB you like fits the roster you're putting together.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yes really. That's the primary reason tony sacca(****) didn't pan out if I remember correctly. He literally couldn't grip the slicker nfl ball bc of girl hands.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Small hands are immediate deal breaker for a QB. Effects everything from ball control to how much velocity they can put on the ball.

The cool thing is Arians and Wiz (both considered QB gurus) have 2 QBs they have both coached: Ben and Derek Anderson.

Both guys had their best years under BA. The variance between Derek Anderson with the Browns (a 10 win playoff team and Pro Bowl season) and the Cardinals (need I say anything else) is quite dramatic. Also not a coincidence that the Steelers have been the definition of average ever since they forced BA out.

Honestly our HC is a secret super star. Real excited to see what he does next year and once we draft a QB in rds 1,2, or 3...

 

[Arizona's Finest]

And for me, I maybe draft a Mettenberger in the middle rounds as a project but otherwise use this draft to REALLY build up the youth and depth of this team.

Then I go for broke with future draft capital next year trading up for Winston, Mariota, or Hundley.

 

[slanidrac16]

Small hands are immediate deal breaker for a QB. Effects everything from ball control to how much velocity they can put on the ball.

The cool thing is Arians and Wiz (both considered QB gurus) have 2 QBs they have both coached: Ben and Derek Anderson.

Both guys had their best years under BA. The variance between Derek Anderson with the Browns (a 10 win playoff team and Pro Bowl season) and the Cardinals (need I say anything else) is quite dramatic. Also not a coincidence that the Steelers have been the definition of average ever since they forced BA out.

Honestly our HC is a secret super star. Real excited to see what he does next year and once we draft a QB in rds 1,2, or 3...

So when they get to the combine they will be using NFL balls. I guess that should settle that concern.

 

[WildBB]

And for me, I maybe draft a Mettenberger in the middle rounds as a project but otherwise use this draft to REALLY build up the youth and depth of this team.

Then I go for broke with future draft capital next year trading up for Winston, Mariota, or Hundley.

I hear that Mettenberger is a real possibility to be targeted in Rd. 2, or trade back into late Rd. 2, early Rd. 3. ie... Minter last yr, which netted us X-tra pick. Allowing us luxury of mtl getting someone like Ellington late.

 

[Cardiac]

Yes really. That's the primary reason tony sacca(****) didn't pan out if I remember correctly. He literally couldn't grip the slicker nfl ball bc of girl hands.

Wow, an actual Ouchie sighting. Could to see you posting again.

 

[Cardiac]

QB Peyton Manning Denver Broncos 1998: Round 1, Pick 1
QB Drew Brees New Orleans Saints 2001: Round 2, Pick 32
QB Tom Brady New England Patriots 2000: Round 6, Pick 199
QB Cam Newton Carolina Panthers 2011: Round 1, Pick 1
QB Philip Rivers San Diego Chargers 2004: Round 1, Pick 4
QB Russell Wilson Seattle Seahawks 2012: Round 3, Pick 75

There's no perfect way to draft a QB. You just have to have faith that the QB you like fits the roster you're putting together.

There are always exceptions that prove the rule

I'm not against drafting a QB in the mid rounds but as K9 said it is like trying to hit the lottery so don't do it often.

 

[Cardiac]

It sounds like this particular front office group is pretty enamored with their mid- and late-round draft picks. I think that they can reasonably assume that two first rounders would be more valuable than moving up for a high QB--and this is probably true.

I want to make sure I understand what you mean by this. Having our 1st rd picks in 2014 & 2015 are more valuable then trading both to move up and get a QB this year, is that right?

The thing with moving up 5-10 spots is that there's always next year, when there's going to be another crop of QB prospects. It's not worth talking yourself into Blaine Gabbert when you could wait a year and get Ryan Tannehill.

If your ONLY or PRIMARY pressing need is a QB, you're probably drafting high enough that you don't have to trade up. Slandriac is right that a team should regularly draft a mid- or late-round QB just in case you hit the jackpot, but I'd do it every other year, just because it doesn't make sense to use 15% of your income buying lottery tickets (i.e., one of your picks every year).

Fully agree with all of this (if I understood your point about 2 first rd picks).

 

[kerouac9]

I want to make sure I understand what you mean by this. Having our 1st rd picks in 2014 & 2015 are more valuable then trading both to move up and get a QB this year, is that right?

That is what I mean.