The Latest on Rosen

[abcard]

Good thing that Dalton, Luck, Elway, Manning, Aikman, Goff, McNabb, T. Green and Griese were given second years. There was some other guy named Brees that should have been cut after his second year stats. To say Rosen at best will be average and Murray at best will be great is pure biased speculation. Either have the chance to be great or fail. I'll wholeheartedly root for whichever is a Cardinal.

 

[Krangodnzr]

5 years ago when they played with leather helmets

Alabama was #1 then as they were when KM faced them.

Remember Johnny?

Another guy who was going to change football as we know it.

And you skimmed over the most important part....not even the same roster or same teams. Horrible take. #fakenews

 

[HeHasRosen]

Against a team 5 years ago. Are you purposefully throwing out ****** arguments?

Not a single damn player that played against Manziel is on the Crimson Tide team that played Murray.

Yeah your right the team Manziel beat was better

 

[Chris_Sanders]

5 years ago when they played with leather helmets

Alabama was #1 then as they were when KM faced them.

Remember Johnny?

Another guy who was going to change football as we know it.

Passing Analytics hated Manziel as a FYI. His QBASE was the lowest in 12 years out of 1-2 year starters. His bust rate was really high and that is without all the off the field stuff.


QBASE is probably an analytic you would like.

It looks only at passing. Running isn't counted at all. You have to put whatever value that brings in afterwards.

It also penalizes you for having less than 3 years starting in college. 1 year is a big hit on the projections and gives a big bust rate (rightfully so)
It penalizes you for having NFL talent on your team
It accounts for strength of schedule.

NFL Average for a 1st round passer is 520

Manziel's QBASE was 456

Rosen's QBASE was 523

Haskins QBASE is 527

Murray's QBASE is 595


Haskins and Murray are both interesting because they grade at above NFL average despite having big bust chances due to limited sample sizes.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I guess we got to trust KK and SK.

This is what it ultimately comes down to imo.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Yeah your right the team Manziel beat was better

Was it? They played against each other?

 

[GuernseyCard]

And you skimmed over the most important part....not even the same roster or same teams. Horrible take. #fakenews

Better take than a snarky, silly request to compare the stats of a College player playing for a top 4 team and someone saddled with the worst offensive collection in the NFL .

Talk about apples and oranges!

 

[Krangodnzr]

Good thing that Dalton, Luck, Elway, Manning, Aikman, Goff, McNabb, T. Green and Griese were given second years. There was some other guy named Brees that should have been cut after his second year stats. To say Rosen at best will be average and Murray at best will be great is pure biased speculation. Either have the chance to be great or fail. I'll wholeheartedly root for whichever is a Cardinal.

It's speculation to even assume that Rosen will even be average. He proved one thing last year, and that was he was/(is?) a really bad QB. Granted, there are a ton of variables for WHY he was bad.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Better take than a snarky, silly request to compare the stats of a College player playing for a top 4 team and someone saddled with the worst offensive collection in the NFL .

Talk about apples and oranges!

Facts remain, Josh Rosen was an woefully awful, trash bin, dumpster fire of a QB last year. Ignore it, but thems are facts.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Krang...I think most Murray supporters are writing off the Alabama games, as it's fairly apparent that Murray finally got it going after Alabama took their foot off the gas.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

If you really believe a Nick Saban team ever “takes their foot off the gas” - particularly in a playoff game, I’ve got a great deal for beachfront property in Chandler for you . . .

 

[GuernseyCard]

It's speculation to even assume that Rosen will even be average. He proved one thing last year, and that was he was/(is?) a really bad QB. Granted, there are a ton of variables for WHY he was bad.

Variables that lead posters to believe he's worth a first round pick in a trade because they believe that last season 'proved' nothing.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Good thing that Dalton, Luck, Elway, Manning, Aikman, Goff, McNabb, T. Green and Griese were given second years. There was some other guy named Brees that should have been cut after his second year stats. To say Rosen at best will be average and Murray at best will be great is pure biased speculation. Either have the chance to be great or fail. I'll wholeheartedly root for whichever is a Cardinal.

I don’t think Chris ever claimed it was anything other than his opinion. So congratulations on telling us what we all already know about Chris’s post but doing so in an adversarial manner!

 

[GuernseyCard]

Facts remain, Josh Rosen was an woefully awful, trash bin, dumpster fire of a QB last year. Ignore it, but thems are facts.

Well, if you see it, I'm sure those who have skin in the game do too.

Hope some dummy will give us a conditional 7th rounder.

 

[abcard]

I don't think I'm the one being adversarial.

 

[cardncubfan]

Man I think you’re missing the mark on what Murray was likely to have done last year. I’m not saying he would’ve been good. I’m not even saying he would’ve been a lot better than josh. But the one thing that he inarguably has over josh is his athleticism. At a minimum that would have been a crucial differentiator behind last year’s offensive line. Again, not saying he would’ve been markedly better than josh, but just ignoring his inherent advantage over josh in an area that wouldn’t been crucial last year is just purposefully ignoring relevant data to try to win an argument.

Being better athletically does not equal a better player - see Nkemdiche.

 

[HeHasRosen]

Was it? They played against each other?

Statistically yes. Oh wait we only use those to project what Murray will be in the NFL. Or to what Rosen will be for his career. Both off of the smallest sample size of one year. To hell with variables, circumstance or context. All I see is talk out of both sides of the mouth on this board. Its quite comical

 

[Chris_Sanders]

The Patriots want him

Good thing that Dalton, Luck, Elway, Manning, Aikman, Goff, McNabb, T. Green and Griese were given second years. There was some other guy named Brees that should have been cut after his second year stats. To say Rosen at best will be average and Murray at best will be great is pure biased speculation. Either have the chance to be great or fail. I'll wholeheartedly root for whichever is a Cardinal.

Well again, I am a believer in predictive analytics and that is what they had Rosen at.

Put him on a bad team and he will be bad. That has been proven.

Put him on a good team and he will be good. That seems more than reasonable.

But he simply lacks any elite tool to elevate his team. He needs his team to elevate him. Kind of like Matt Cassell.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Being better athletically does not equal a better player - see Nkemdiche.

You’re 100% correct. Do you think it means he might have had a better chance to avoid a pass rush due to a crumbling line? Do you think that it might mean he could’ve made more yardage on scrambles?

I mean, if you don’t, I just can’t talk to you about this anymore.

I didn’t say it would make Murray a better player than josh anywhere, did I? No, I said given the facts and circumstances last year it might have given him an enhanced opportunity for better performance. There’s a difference between those two statements. And before you say “that’s all speculation!!!!” YES, it IS speculation. That’s what we are talking about because we will never actually see Murray play with the 2018 cardinals under that dreck of a coaching staff.

 

[Shane]

That’s true. His limited starts is certainly a factor in all this. But I think it’s a relatively limited factor when you see someone like Trubisky succeed in his second year after having had only a year of collegiate experience.

I think you're being disingenuous with that take. Of course Trubisky is an example. But over the life of NFL football and in the last 20-30 years lets say how many have been successful coming in under the same circumstances? Im going to say the overall sum of the masses is a better barometer of what to expect. Rather than the blip on the radar that might happen if you get lucky. Same with your Baker Mayfield example. Its why you haven't heard me comparing Josh and using Jared Goof as an example of what could happen anymore I realized Im being disingenuous in that example because its not the norm.

 

[Ronin]

But he simply lacks any elite tool to elevate his team. He needs his team to elevate him. Kind of like Matt Cassell.

Sounds a lot like Alex Smith.
Smith needed an elite d, tight end, and running back in order to start winning. It only took him 8 years to turn around his career. I don’t think I have the patience to go through that experiment again.

 

[football karma]

But he simply lacks any elite tool to elevate his team. He needs his team to elevate him. Kind of like Matt Cassell.

there are worse things, and QBs in this mold have won SBs:

Eli Manning (2x), Joe Flacco, Nick Foles. You could argue the year Peyton won it with the Broncos -- he had slipped to that level.

that being said: I don't blame the Cardinals if they conclude that Murray is an elevate the offense kinda QB and make the switch.

The salary cap kinda forces you there: if a B+ level kinda QB gets you to a couple playoff shots with a win or two-- you have to pay him like he was a "elevate the team" guy (see Kirk Cousins). But once you do that, you cant afford the talent that QB needs to get you playoff wins.

 

[POISON]

The Patriots want him. I'll trust their talent evaluators over guys on the internet or frankly our own front office.

They can have him!!!

 

[BW52]

I think I’ve been very fair & rational in the reasons I would take Murray. I haven’t been here everyday or even regularly saying he’s the be all end all. And not once have I bashed Rosen nor have I soured on him as a player either unlike most here are doing with Murray & the name calling. Grow up

Because I laugh at your murray homerism? Get real

 

[MadCardDisease]

Passing Analytics hated Manziel as a FYI. His QBASE was the lowest in 12 years out of 1-2 year starters. His bust rate was really high and that is without all the off the field stuff.


QBASE is probably an analytic you would like.

It looks only at passing. Running isn't counted at all. You have to put whatever value that brings in afterwards.

It also penalizes you for having less than 3 years starting in college. 1 year is a big hit on the projections and gives a big bust rate (rightfully so)
It penalizes you for having NFL talent on your team
It accounts for strength of schedule.

NFL Average for a 1st round passer is 520

Manziel's QBASE was 456

Rosen's QBASE was 523

Haskins QBASE is 527

Murray's QBASE is 595


Haskins and Murray are both interesting because they grade at above NFL average despite having big bust chances due to limited sample sizes.

QBASE sounds like a Baseball stat. Which is probably where it belongs.

 

[AZCrazy]

Guys like Murray have never won the Super Bowl. Thinking HE's the one to elevate the team to that level flies in the face of 100% of prevailing evidence.
Judging Rosen based on last year's trash heap is foolish and incredibly impatient. Nothing worked on the offense last year for a multitude of reasons, anyone would have failed.
Kyler Murray would not have won four or more games.