The Official 2012 NBA Finals Thread: MIA vs. OKC

[elindholm]

Taking Magic over Jordan, Russell, Wilt and KAJ is just stupid and taking him over Shaq, Hakeem and Duncan very questionable.

Well at least no one's saying Bird, the other absurdly overrated star of the 80s.

Saying that Magic Johnson transformed the PG position is a dodge, because he didn't really play PG consistently. You didn't see him guarding the other team's PG, and he didn't beat people off of dribble penetration. He was a hybrid player with a SF's body and a PG skill set. In that sense he is similar to James. But the position next to someone's name in the box score really doesn't mean that much, for example when he "started at center" in whatever that playoff game was.

Yes, I watched plenty of Johnson, having been a Suns fan during that era. He was the emotional leader on a dynasty, and certainly his team's best player once Abdul-Jabbar started to wear down. But I don't see him as being in the conversation of the top, say, five players of all time. His legacy is great assist numbers, championships, and charisma, and in those categories he was exceptional (although personally I've always found his persona grating).

As for Bryant versus James, James is obviously more gifted physically and probably a more complete player, but Bryant understands the game much better. Bryant is also a better leader, because leading by fear and intimidation, although not ideal, is more effective than leading by the need for constant affirmation, which is James's approach. Both have other personality defects, which result in Bryant not trusting his teammates and James not trusting himself. And Bryant is slowing down, there's no doubt about that. But if I were constructing a team for this era and had my choice between 2008 Bryant and 2012 James, I'd grab Bryant before whoever set up the rules changed his mind.

Picking an all-time team for today's era unfortunately leaves Russell off of the short list, because he'd simply be too undersized by today's standards to do the things he did in his career. O'Neal is a non-starter because his work ethic was so poor; each of his titles was won by riding the coattails of a real leader. I don't know enough about Chamberlain, sadly, but my guess is that his game would translate well. The safe pick to be the big man alongside Jordan is Abdul-Jabbar, because what he could do would work in every era, and I see him as slightly more dominant than Duncan -- and don't forget that he was exceptionally healthy throughout his career.

 

[D-Dogg]

........ most used lineups

1980
Kareem Abdul Jabba 7'2
Nick Chones 6'11
Magic Johnson 6'8
Jamal Wilkes 6'6
Norm Nixon 6'2

1981
basically same lineup with Michael Cooper in place of Magic lots of games

1982
Kareem Abdul Jabba 7'2
Nick Chones 6'11
Magic Johnson 6'8
Michael Cooper 6'5
Norm Nixon 6'2

1983
same lineup with Worthy 6th most minutes

from 1985 on it was Byron Scott and Michael Cooper along with Worthy, Magic and KAJ.

Tell me how many seasons was Magic the starter at the PG position regardless of how many assists he got. How many seasons did he regularly guard the other teams starter at PG?

Magic was always the point guard, dude. Each season. That was his position. He guarded points using his size. When speedy points ate him up, they'd switch him around. He had a lot of help defense on the fast PGs, but he would guard points. He could guard all five positions, btw. Offensively, he ran the show. Perhaps you heard of it, it was called Showtime. There was a reason, and the reason was because MAGIC WAS THE POINT GUARD.

Height =/= position. Is that your hangup? Because he was tall he couldn't play point guard? Uhm...THAT WAS THE AMAZING THING!!! Jeez dude.

 

[slinslin]

Saying that Magic Johnson transformed the PG position is a dodge, because he didn't really play PG consistently. You didn't see him guarding the other team's PG, and he didn't beat people off of dribble penetration. He was a hybrid player with a SF's body and a PG skill set. In that sense he is similar to James. But the position next to someone's name in the box score really doesn't mean that much, for example when he "started at center" in whatever that playoff game was.

Thank you finally.

A lot of the passes Magic used to make regularly would not even work anymore in this league. Look how many times he could just casually lob it into KAJ for layups. That would never be possible like that in todays league. Teams have way better schemes to prevent such plays.

Not to mention that Magic would be forced into halfcourt sets a lot more clearly as the overall pace of the NBA is much much slower and halfcourt, defensive oriented.

 

[WarnerHOF]

Defense too fysical



What?

 

[D-Dogg]

Defense too fysical



What?

So that was very loose. See Detroit instead for physicality. Or the clothesline.

What I did notice:

- Magic guarding the point.
- Magic running the point.
- Magic making some sick passes.
- Magic running the half court set just fine.
- Magic drilling three long range jumpers.
- The Lakers running the Celtics out of the gym.

Slins arguments about Magic fall away in that little 8 minute clip, and the last part makes me happy.

 

[desertdawg]

Slin my man, you aren't looking too good here in the tarnish Magic campaign, but it aint your fault, you just had to be there because it was magical. Your also looking outnumbered (I know your a numbers kinda guy ), I'd suggest you should have all your other screen names/aliasses come in and back you up on your statistics.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I agree on willingness completely. That's no question. However, he's very underrated as to vision, and I think Lebron is overrated as to vision. But again, I watch all Laker games and very few Lebron games.

Then you're falling into slin's trap of making comments on something you don't watch Donald.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You have some serious reading comprehension problems dude.

I said Lebron gets you around 8 apg every season. He is averaging 7.3 over the last 5 seasons including 8.6 in one.

which is a lie. Around 8 apg would mean he gets around 8 assists per game... he averages 6.9. that's around 7 dimes per. Andnow you're cherry picking your stats to make it 8 by limiting it to the last 5 seasons. Well, okay... I can do that to. In the last two seasons, he's only averaged 6.4 assists per game. Not close to around 8. Bottom line... even in your stat argument you make **** up to back up your POV which is worthless.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Thank you finally.

A lot of the passes Magic used to make regularly would not even work anymore in this league. Look how many times he could just casually lob it into KAJ for layups. That would never be possible like that in todays league. Teams have way better schemes to prevent such plays.

how can you talk about passes Magic used to "regularly" make... when you DIDN'T EVER WATCH HIM PLAY?

Not to mention that Magic would be forced into halfcourt sets a lot more clearly as the overall pace of the NBA is much much slower and halfcourt, defensive oriented.

Why would Magic be forced into more halfcourt sets than Nash was? And Magic in the half-court was a match-up nightmare because opposing PGs DID have to guard him and could post them up easily.

sorry... you didn't watch basketball back then and you continuing to find reasons that Magic wouldn't be successful now is beyond laughable.

 

[Chaplin]

how can you talk about passes Magic used to "regularly" make... when you DIDN'T EVER WATCH HIM PLAY?



Why would Magic be forced into more halfcourt sets than Nash was? And Magic in the half-court was a match-up nightmare because opposing PGs DID have to guard him and could post them up easily.

sorry... you didn't watch basketball back then and you continuing to find reasons that Magic wouldn't be successful now is beyond laughable.

Didn't think it would happen, but this is one issue that cheese and me are in total agreement. Magic played in an era completely different than this one. AND he played on really one of the only teams in league history at the time that played like that.

Hell, the main reason we actually went with 7 Seconds or Less was because of the success of the Showtime Lakers in the 80s that was COMPLETELY different than everyone else.

Magic was the engine of that team and really was that engine from the very beginning. But the argument that he was never the Lakers point guard is laughable at worst and absolutely ridiculous at best.

Lebron is a great player, no doubt about that. But Magic has PROVEN to be a better player than him, at least right now. No amount of convenient stats will change that.

 

[slinslin]

Didn't think it would happen, but this is one issue that cheese and me are in total agreement. Magic played in an era completely different than this one. AND he played on really one of the only teams in league history at the time that played like that.

Hell, the main reason we actually went with 7 Seconds or Less was because of the success of the Showtime Lakers in the 80s that was COMPLETELY different than everyone else.

You are so flat out wrong here.

Here is the average NBA pace by season

1978 106.7
1979 105.8
1980 103.1
1981 101.8
1982 100.9
1983 103.1
1984 101.4
1985 102.1
1986 102.1
1987 100.8
1988 99.6
1989 100.6
1990 98.3
1991 97.8
1992 96.6

2012 91.3
2011 92.1
2010 92.7
2009 91.7
2008 92.4
2007 92.4
2006 91.9
2005 90.5
2004 90.9
2003 90.1

Now here are where Magics teams ranked in pace

1980 8th of 23 in pace 104.1
1981 8th of 23 in pace 102.7
1982 4th of 23 in pace 103.1
1983 10th of 23 in pace 103.8
1984 6th of 23 in pace 103.7
1985 9th of 23 in pace 103.2
1986 10th of 23 in pace 102.7
1987 10th of 23 in pace 101.6
1988 11th in pace of 23 99.1
1989 12th of 25 in pace 100.1
1990 20th of 27 in pace 96.3
1991 25th of 27 in pace 94.1

Everyone in that era played that fast, the Lakers were an average paced offensive team only and only 1 showtime lakers team ranks in the top 10 all time based on ORTG.

And these are cold hard facts.

In the 84,85 and 86 seasons the AVERAGE scoring was over 110ppg thats all you need to know about defenses and paces back then.

 

[slinslin]

how can you talk about passes Magic used to "regularly" make... when you DIDN'T EVER WATCH HIM PLAY?



Why would Magic be forced into more halfcourt sets than Nash was? And Magic in the half-court was a match-up nightmare because opposing PGs DID have to guard him and could post them up easily.

sorry... you didn't watch basketball back then and you continuing to find reasons that Magic wouldn't be successful now is beyond laughable.

The problem is Magic isn't as good a halfcourt player as Nash is.

You will obviously dispute this since you even have the silly believe that Isiah Thomas was better than Steve Nash but Steve Nash in his prime was CLEARLY a better offensive player overall than Magic.

Tell me how other PGs had to guard Magic in the post, Magic always played alongside 2 guards and one of them was a midget since Magic could never guard PGs himself.

 

[Chaplin]

Stats, stats, stats.

Watch some of the games, then come back and talk.

 

[Chaplin]

The problem is Magic isn't as good a halfcourt player as Nash is.

You will obviously dispute this since you even have the silly believe that Isiah Thomas was better than Steve Nash but Steve Nash in his prime was CLEARLY a better offensive player overall than Magic.

Tell me how other PGs had to guard Magic in the post, Magic always played alongside 2 guards and one of them was a midget since Magic could never guard PGs himself.

Why are you comparing Magic and Nash again?

 

[slinslin]

Stats, stats, stats.

Watch some of the games, then come back and talk.

Well I better not watch games if I drew flat out wrong conclusions like you do.

How can you dispute these stats. The only explanation could be that you do not understand their meaning.

Those are FACTS. The Lakers run and gun was not the exception in the 80s it was absolutely the norm, every team was high paced. The bottom ranked teams ranked right around or higher than the Suns 7seconds or less teams it is a fact.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The problem is Magic isn't as good a halfcourt player as Nash is.

You will obviously dispute this since you even have the silly believe that Isiah Thomas was better than Steve Nash but Steve Nash in his prime was CLEARLY a better offensive player overall than Magic.

Tell me how other PGs had to guard Magic in the post, Magic always played alongside 2 guards and one of them was a midget since Magic could never guard PGs himself.

at 6'9, Magic did have another two-guard beside him, but correct me if I'm wrong here, but there are TWO GUARDS in an NBA lineup and the other guard pretty much always guarded Magic and considering all of those were usually 6'4 to 6'6 (at most back then), he had a height advantage over all of them. And if they put a PF or SF on him, Magic was bigger than the SF and could post him or he could take the PF to the hole.

I mean... do you realize how assinine this argument is. you're literally trying to argue that Magic wasn't a nightmare match-up for opposing defenses.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Well I better not watch games if I drew flat out wrong conclusions like you do.

How can you dispute these stats. The only explanation could be that you do not understand their meaning.

Those are FACTS. The Lakers run and gun was not the exception in the 80s it was absolutely the norm, every team was high paced. The bottom ranked teams ranked right around or higher than the Suns 7seconds or less teams it is a fact.

i'm still trying to figure out why Nash could run and gun in this era and Magic wouldn't be able to.

 

[95pro]

magic had great vision, he was a PG first.

BUT, i'm with slin on that Magic wouldn't be as effective in the past 15yrs of NBA as he was in the 80's.

c'mon, guys are stronger and faster now than back then. defenses are more intricate. sure fouls were hard, they still are to an extent but are limited due to the possible suspensions and lost of $. you have guys that can cover the 1-3 spot these days, think of people like pippen, marion, and now sefolosha. its a league with specialists right now. the league also went from small non-athletic white guys to a league dominated by blacks.

all im saying is Magic wouldn't have been as effective. good yes, but would be contained a little more. carry on people.

 

[Phrazbit]

This is unbelievable.

Magic played PG... end of discussion. Not only could you go and see the endless hours of film of magic playing the point on both ends but you'd think that SOMEONE by now would have mentioned that Magic was not a PG when he gets thrown in the "who is the greatest PG?" discussions. He had the ability to play other positions, which is part of what made him great, but for anyone to claim he was NOT a PG is utter lunacy.

We are not talking about some forward like LeBron who was a good passer and chipped in with 6-8 per game, when Magic retired (rather young) he was number one all time in assists!!!

 

[Russ Smith]

Right in front of the ref:

You must be registered for see images attach

No call.

Ben howland does that all the time. I saw it too but it's not something that gets called very often. Westbrook would have had to be visibly distracted for them to call it IMHO.

 

[95pro]

Ben howland does that all the time. I saw it too but it's not something that gets called very often. Westbrook would have had to be visibly distracted for them to call it IMHO.

thats bush league and should be called.

 

[slinslin]

i'm still trying to figure out why Nash could run and gun in this era and Magic wouldn't be able to.

Do you still not realize that the Suns with Nash

were

1) slower paced when directly compared

2) in context to their era much pacier than Magics Lakers and more efficient#

The Suns those years were an exception compared to the rest of the league. The Lakers were just one of many fast paced teams. They were barely above average paced most years but had a cool nickname, were the Lakers and had a bunch of superstars and #1 picks.

 

[slinslin]

at 6'9, Magic did have another two-guard beside him, but correct me if I'm wrong here, but there are TWO GUARDS in an NBA lineup and the other guard pretty much always guarded Magic and considering all of those were usually 6'4 to 6'6 (at most back then), he had a height advantage over all of them. And if they put a PF or SF on him, Magic was bigger than the SF and could post him or he could take the PF to the hole.

One of their guards was Scott and the other Cooper and then they had Worthy. It was not just one guard along with Magic.

 

[Russ Smith]

magic had great vision, he was a PG first.

BUT, i'm with slin on that Magic wouldn't be as effective in the past 15yrs of NBA as he was in the 80's.

c'mon, guys are stronger and faster now than back then. defenses are more intricate. sure fouls were hard, they still are to an extent but are limited due to the possible suspensions and lost of $. you have guys that can cover the 1-3 spot these days, think of people like pippen, marion, and now sefolosha. its a league with specialists right now. the league also went from small non-athletic white guys to a league dominated by blacks.

all im saying is Magic wouldn't have been as effective. good yes, but would be contained a little more. carry on people.

So you ask anybody who watched the NBA in the 80's to today and they'll tell you todays league is watered down talent wise. and yet one of the best players on the court in the 80's, Magic, would be less effective in todays' watered down NBA?

I couldn't hate the Lakers in those years because they had Rambis who went to my HS, but I wasn't a fan and certainly not a Magic fan, but he was an amazing player. UCLA has a kid this coming season named Kyle Anderson that people are comparing to magic and I keep complaining how unfair it is to compared a kid who has not played a single college game to one of the alltime greats.

Magic would be a star in any era, he was just an amazing player.

 

[slinslin]

Todays "watered down NBA" is a total myth.

You put Lebron in the 80s and he would be even more dominant player than what he is in this era.

Those are romantic thoughts but truth is that the quality is getting better not worse. Players are faster, stronger, bigger, quicker.. coaching schemes and tactics evolve. This is true in basketball, soccer, football, hockey and whatever.

There will always be someone better, there will be someone that is better than MJ and then someone that is going to be better than that guy. It is inevitable.

You can say Pele was a great player in his era, but if you were to put him into todays soccer world as he was , he would have a hard time to even make a first division team.