The Official 2012 NBA Finals Thread: MIA vs. OKC

[slinslin]

Whats so funny? He is a hundred times better defensively , his career numbers blow Magic out of the water despite playing in a much more defensive oriented era at a MUCH MUCH MUCH slower pace.

He already has as many MVPs as Magic and is just entering his prime. Lebron is just 27.

Oh yeah you are a Laker homer, forgot.

 

[D-Dogg]

And he hasn't won squat. Nor has he led one of the most explosive offenses in history.

Jeez Louise.

I'll have the Jordan vs. Magic argument for days, but LeBron is a non-starter.

 

[slinslin]

Doh winning championships is not an individual accolade. Magic at times was not even the best player on his own team.

Give Lebron a stacked team of KAJ, Worthy etc

Magic's peak PER was 27.0. Lebrons worst in the last 5 years was 27.3. Three times he was over 30 and twice over 31. Lebron also has more WS/48.

Magics peak WS/48 was 27. Lebron was at around 30+ 3 out of the last 4 seasons.

Lakers pace 101, Miami Heat pace 91 in their peak years. Not to mention overall pace in the 80s was much higher than today. There was a lot less defense and more run and gun.

Lebron passing Magic is a given, in fact if he wins this year he clearly has surpassed him already anyway even when you want to put championships into the equation which is incredibly stupid.

Chauncey Billups is much worse than Nash and Stockton, and so is Rasheed Wallace compared to Barkley or Malone. Being on championship teams means little to nothing when comparing individual players.

If people were not so hung up on championship and big name hype especially for Lakers players they would realize that going by objective statistical analysis Steve Nash had a better peak than Magic Johnson. 6 out of the top 10 or so offensive teams of all time were lead by Nash actually, Magic is only like twice on that list and that whole myth about Magic giving the rebounding advantage is kind of bogus too since Magic always played with a small guard, esentially Magic was the SF in the lineup despite running the offense.
But you are not going to concede that anyway because Magic has championships.

And why on earth would anyone want to argue Magic vs Jordan? Magic has no case for the #1 spot at all. I want to see the case for Magic above Russell or KAJ first.

 

[D-Dogg]

I won't begrudge you your delusion, slin. It's kind of cute, really.

 

[Bufalay]

Doh winning championships is not an individual accolade.

Championships are the most overrated measure of the quality of a player's career. Kobe is not close to Jordan just because he has 1 fewer championship. Replace Kobe with Pierce, Carter, Iverson or TMac and the Lakers still win most of those championships. They also probably wouldn't have lost to Detroit because those guys wouldn't have actively kept the ball away from Shaq. Plus those guys wouldn't have run Shaq out of town.

 

[desertdawg]

Word

 

[Mainstreet]

Doh winning championships is not an individual accolade. Magic at times was not even the best player on his own team.

IMO, you are vastly underrating Magic. What made Magic so great is he could give his team exactly what they needed to win... pass, shoot, defend, create his own shot or play any position necessary. He was like a master chef who gave his team the ingredients to win. Magic was not about stats so if you're looking at individual stats like scoring you are missing the forest for the trees.

Too bad his career was cut short. He was so great athletically and mentally that when he aged and his skills diminished the plan was for him to switch to PF or even center where he would not miss a beat.

 

[slinslin]

Defend? Magic was as much a joke defensively as Nash was.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Defend? Magic was as much a joke defensively as Nash was.

i agree that Magic was a joke defensively, but he was a very good rebounder.

and question for you, how old are you, slin? and have you always lived in germany?

and Magic wasn't the best player on his first title team, but the idea that he wasn't the best player on every title team after that is really out there.

 

[slinslin]

Yes but Magic's rebounding should not be compared to other PGs since he really did not start at PG.

The Lakers always had a small guard and a shooting guard along with Magic in the lineup wheter it was 6'2 Nixon or Scott or someone else.

It's kind of like Lebron starting at SF his career but obviously he is always the main playmaker on his teams no matter who starts at PG.

Magic was a better passer and freethrow shooter than Lebron but that is it. Lebron is far superior at everything else.

In 1985 it is argueable whether Magic was more valueable than Kareem. Both finished in the top 5 MVP. The point stands that Magic had much much more talent around him than James even on the Heat now Wade and Bosh can't measure up to KAJ, Worthy, Cooper etc..

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yes but Magic's rebounding should not be compared to other PGs since he really did not start at PG.

The Lakers always had a small guard and a shooting guard along with Magic in the lineup wheter it was 6'2 Nixon or Scott or someone else.

It's kind of like Lebron starting at SF his career but obviously he is always the main playmaker on his teams no matter who starts at PG.

Magic was a better passer and freethrow shooter than Lebron but that is it. Lebron is far superior at everything else.

In 1985 it is argueable whether Magic was more valueable than Kareem. Both finished in the top 5 MVP. The point stands that Magic had much much more talent around him than James even on the Heat now Wade and Bosh can't measure up to KAJ, Worthy, Cooper etc..

again... how old are you and have you always lived in germany?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yes but Magic's rebounding should not be compared to other PGs since he really did not start at PG.

who's comparing Magic's rebounding to other PG? he was a good rebounder PERIOD, even compared to LeBron. And Magic DIDN'T start at PG? Even if he had small shooting guards, they were STILL shooting guards. the above mkes zero sense whatsoever.

 

[slinslin]

He did not have shooting guards he was playing in a starting lineup for example Byron Scott 6'2 , Michael Cooper 6'5 and Magic Johnson. In todays age nobody would claim that Magic was the de facto starter at PG. Lebron averages around 8 apg every season and by far leads his team but people wouldn't say he is their PG.

What does it matter how old I am or where I live? In todays age you can watch all the old-school games anytime you want. PS I am turning 30.

Last time I recall that you claimed that teams played BETTER defense in the 80s so I am not sure wany discussion will lead to anything here, because that was such blatantly obvious false statement.

 

[Cheesebeef]

He did not have shooting guards he was playing in a starting lineup for example Byron Scott 6'2 , Michael Cooper 6'5 and Magic Johnson. In todays age nobody would claim that Magic was the de facto starter at PG.

you're insane. The ball was CONSTANTLY in Magic's hands, he was the initiator of the offense, led the league in assists... how he wouldn't be considered the point guard is completely beyond me.

Lebron averages around 8 apg every season and by far leads his team but people wouldn't say he is their PG.

actually, Lebron averages 6.9 assists per game which is a far cry from 11 which Magic used to and even then, most people look at LeBron as the intiator of ever offense he's played on.

What does it matter how old I am or where I live? In todays age you can watch all the old-school games anytime you want. PS I am turning 30.

in other words... you were 9 when Magic's career ended and thus never watched him play. Unless you're gonna tell me that you've sat down and watched all of his games for some odd reason wayyyyyyyy after the fact. Basically, you have no point of reference for talking about Magic or the Lakers because you basically never saw him play.

Last time I recall that you claimed that teams played BETTER defense in the 80s so I am not sure wany discussion will lead to anything here, because that was such blatantly obvious false statement.

you never watched basketball in the 80's. You have no frame of reference to talk about the era and use stats to back up what you obviously didn't see with your own eyes. It's okay to just admit you're clueless about an era. Hell, you're mostly clueless about this one so it's not like it would be anything new.

 

[slinslin]

see its pointless to argue with you, you can't back up any of your claims ever. You always resort to calling people clueless because you have some opinion that you think is the truth just because you feel that way even when stats tell you it is the complete opposite.

you don't need to watch a single game in the 80s to say that the defense was worse and pace much higher than today. It is a fact yet you still dispute that.

Last time you said that Steve Nash stats were overrated compared to Stockton because of the Suns PACE.

Maybe you need glasses because whatever you see it never can be backed up by factual evidence.

 

[Russ Smith]

I'm sure Westbrook will be blamed for missing the open 3 but really the game came down to Durant vs LeBron in the 4th and to my surprise, LeBron was better.

I will make my one officiating complaint, when Thabo stripped Wade for that layup Wade fouled him not once but twice on the shot. IN a league where phantom fouls are called routinely becaues they anticipate, how did all the refs watching the ball all fail to see Wade first with the left on the hip and then the right on the top of the head foul him? They call that and he makes the FT it's a 2 point game, Westbrook's jumper ties it. Might be a whole different ending because one thing we've seen repeatedly is Miami tighten up at the end of games when they lose the lead.

Still great 4th quarter by LeBron and terrible by OKC and in particular Durant.

Also why so much Perkins and so little Ibaka, he had only 2 fouls but down the stretch he wasn't in there Perkins was and it hurt them several times on D IMHO.

 

[Cheesebeef]

see its pointless to argue with you, you can't back up any of your claims ever. You always resort to calling people clueless because you have some opinion that you think is the truth just because you feel that way even when stats tell you it is the complete opposite.

you don't need to watch a single game in the 80s to say that the defense was worse and pace much higher than today. It is a fact yet you still dispute that.

Last time you said that Steve Nash stats were overrated compared to Stockton because of the Suns PACE.

Maybe you need glasses because whatever you see it never can be backed up by factual evidence.

I'm still enjoying you being the expert on an era in basketball... that you NEVER WATCHED.

And why should i even trust your "stats" when you're constantly making **** up like LeBron averaging 8 assists per game... or that Magic wasn't really a point guard. As to the rest of your stats, stats can be twisted to say anything you want... as you showed with your ridiculous use of stats "proving" that Robin Lopez was a better player than Gortat with that inane argument that was laughed off the face of the earth by everyone but you.

I mean... you're seriously arguing that Magic wasn't a PG. What universe do you live in?

 

[D-Dogg]

stuff.

You don't have a clue about 80s basketball, and are trying to compare performances in a watered down, no handchecks allowed (sometimes) league you see today to the "every team is stacked, fouls are tough" world of the 80's.

You then drape PER and other ludicrous ESPN blather-stats around your arguements like they are gold nuggets. They aren't. PER is useless in today's game, much less across eras. Hollinger be damned.

Magic had Worthy and older Kareem on his team, yes. Guess what, it wasn't "news." It wasn't a "superteam." EVERYONE had strong talent three-four-7 deep. This league is watered down like nobody's business. Getting stats against some of these mugs like the Hornets or half of the Eastern conference isn't as impressive as what teams did back then. In 1988 there were 23 NBA teams. Today there are 30.

Every player out there tries to be like Jordan. Some do a pretty good job. Nobody tries to be like Magic, because they can't. He was impossible to put into words, and LeBron is not as good of a player as he was. LeBron is a bull in a china shop compared to the grace Magic had on the court - his court vision was sick. Lebron is ok in that regard..Magic was something I've never seen before and haven't again yet.

He wasn't a point guard? Are you effing kidding me? He was THE point guard. He turned the position on its head, and nobody has done it like him since. BScott was an athletic shooting guard, not a point in any way. Coop was a three point bomber and defensive specialist. Magic was my idol, and who I tried to emulate at the point guard position despite not having that kind of size. His court vision and his mastery of transition is unparralel.

Bang on Magic for having one of the ugliest jumpshots of any GOAT contender. But that's about it. LeBron has a lot of winning to do before getting to hang his hat in that part of the Pantheon.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You don't have a clue about 80s basketball, and are trying to compare performances in a watered down, no handchecks allowed (sometimes) league you see today to the "every team is stacked, fouls are tough" world of the 80's.

You then drape PER and other ludicrous ESPN blather-stats around your arguements like they are gold nuggets. They aren't. PER is useless in today's game, much less across eras. Hollinger be damned.

Magic had Worthy and older Kareem on his team, yes. Guess what, it wasn't "news." It wasn't a "superteam." EVERYONE had strong talent three-four-7 deep. This league is watered down like nobody's business. Getting stats against some of these mugs like the Hornets or half of the Eastern conference isn't as impressive as what teams did back then. In 1988 there were 23 NBA teams. Today there are 30.

Every player out there tries to be like Jordan. Some do a pretty good job. Nobody tries to be like Magic, because they can't. He was impossible to put into words, and LeBron is not as good of a player as he was. LeBron is a bull in a china shop compared to the grace Magic had on the court - his court vision was sick. Lebron is ok in that regard..Magic was something I've never seen before and haven't again yet.

He wasn't a point guard? Are you effing kidding me? He was THE point guard. He turned the position on its head, and nobody has done it like him since. BScott was an athletic shooting guard, not a point in any way. Coop was a three point bomber and defensive specialist. Magic was my idol, and who I tried to emulate at the point guard position despite not having that kind of size. His court vision and his mastery of transition is unparralel.

Bang on Magic for having one of the ugliest jumpshots of any GOAT contender. But that's about it. LeBron has a lot of winning to do before getting to hang his hat in that part of the Pantheon.

onl;y thing I'll disagree with here is that LeBron just has "ok" court vision. The guy has disgusting court vision and if Riley ever got a hold of him or a coach with any talent did, I think he'd be pretty damn close to the passer Magic was.

however... the idea that Lakers weren't a super-team is a little silly. they consistently had one of the best rosters in the history of the game. Magic definitely made them all reach their peaks, but Worthy was a number 1 pick, Kareem was a number one pick, Norm Nixon was an all-star, wilkes was an all-star, Michael Thompson was a former number one pick, etc. etc.

that being said, LeBron is playing with one HOF right now and a pretty damn good third wheel in Bosh.

 

[carrrnuttt]

Right in front of the ref:

You must be registered for see images attach

No call.

 

[D-Dogg]

onl;y thing I'll disagree with here is that LeBron just has "ok" court vision. The guy has disgusting court vision and if Riley ever got a hold of him or a coach with any talent did, I think he'd be pretty damn close to the passer Magic was.

however... the idea that Lakers weren't a super-team is a little silly. they consistently had one of the best rosters in the history of the game. Magic definitely made them all reach their peaks, but Worthy was a number 1 pick, Kareem was a number one pick, Norm Nixon was an all-star, wilkes was an all-star, Michael Thompson was a former number one pick, etc. etc.

that being said, LeBron is playing with one HOF right now and a pretty damn good third wheel in Bosh.

He's got very good court vision. I will not concede disgusting. I doubt seriously he's approach the passer Magic was. He might get to the point where he's completely court aware like Magic was..not just seeing it but seeing it as it will be...but he won't be able to then turn it up to 11 and toss the flash on top of it. That combination of total court awareness to the point where lookaways, wraparounds and hand switches would be combined into one move put right into a streaking player's numbers for a dunk...and make it look EASY... has just never even been sniffed by another player.

 

[Phrazbit]

Right in front of the ref:

You must be registered for see images attach

No call.

How that didnt warrant a T is insane. A coach out on the court blocking a refs vision and distracting a shooter. What a joke.

 

[D-Dogg]

How that didnt warrant a T is insane. A coach out on the court blocking a refs vision and distracting a shooter. What a joke.

wait...what? Spo' is a COACH???

 

[Cheesebeef]

wait...what? Spo' is a COACH???

lol.

 

[Cheesebeef]

He's got very good court vision. I will not concede disgusting. I doubt seriously he's approach the passer Magic was. He might get to the point where he's completely court aware like Magic was..not just seeing it but seeing it as it will be...but he won't be able to then turn it up to 11 and toss the flash on top of it. That combination of total court awareness to the point where lookaways, wraparounds and hand switches would be combined into one move put right into a streaking player's numbers for a dunk...and make it look EASY... has just never even been sniffed by another player.

never said he was Magic's equal as a passer... i don't think anyone is. But he's still an incredible passer with what i think is the best court vision in the game today. Think about how good he made those AWFUL teams with Cleveland look. That was ALL him. He won 66 freaking games... with Mo FREAKING Williams as his number 2!

I know you loathe LeBron, but i think you give him too little credit here.