The Official 2012 NBA Finals Thread: MIA vs. OKC

elindholm

edited for content
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Posts
27,563
Reaction score
9,861
Location
L.A. area
How that didnt warrant a T is insane. A coach out on the court blocking a refs vision and distracting a shooter. What a joke.

Heh, I couldn't figure out what carrr was talking about and concluded that it was Westbrook's palming.
 

D-Dogg

A Whole New World
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Posts
45,181
Reaction score
1,439
Location
In The End Zone
never said he was Magic's equal as a passer... i don't think anyone is. But he's still an incredible passer with what i think is the best court vision in the game today. Think about how good he made those AWFUL teams with Cleveland look. That was ALL him. He won 66 freaking games... with Mo FREAKING Williams as his number 2!

I know you loathe LeBron, but i think you give him too little credit here.

:madarms: :D

I guess I don't watch him enough, because frankly his game bores me. Nash, Paul, Rondo and Deron have far better CV than he does, IMO. If you say for a non-PG he's got the best CV, maybe.

I did a youtube search for Lebron Passing and saw one mix that was nice. Saw pretty much a similar mix for Kobe. I'd argue Kobe's just as good a passer, just not nearly as willing. And there are likely other non-PGs that aren't coming to mind with as good or better CV.

The Chosen One



The Hated One

 

Cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
92,286
Reaction score
70,715
:madarms: :D

I guess I don't watch him enough, because frankly his game bores me. Nash, Paul, Rondo and Deron have far better CV than he does, IMO. If you say for a non-PG he's got the best CV, maybe.

I did a youtube search for Lebron Passing and saw one mix that was nice. Saw pretty much a similar mix for Kobe. I'd argue Kobe's just as good a passer, just not nearly as willing. And there are likely other non-PGs that aren't coming to mind with as good or better CV.

The Chosen One



The Hated One


Kobe's nowhere near the passer from a willing standpoint or vision standpoint IMO.
 

Bufalay

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Posts
4,679
Reaction score
786
Didn't watch the Kobe video, but I'll just assume it was a mix of fadeaway 3's over double teams with 20 seconds on the shot clock and Shaq standing unguarded under the basket.
 

Phrazbit

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Posts
20,397
Reaction score
11,521
Little known fact: every assist Kobe has gotten in his career was actually the result of an extremely bad air-ball.

But seriously, Donald, you lose any shred of credibility when you compare Kobe and LeBron as passers. LeBron is not magic, but he is one of the best passing wing men to ever play the game.
 

slinslin

Welcome to Amareca
Joined
Jun 28, 2002
Posts
16,855
Reaction score
562
Location
Hannover - Germany
You don't have a clue about 80s basketball, and are trying to compare performances in a watered down, no handchecks allowed (sometimes) league you see today to the "every team is stacked, fouls are tough" world of the 80's.

You then drape PER and other ludicrous ESPN blather-stats around your arguements like they are gold nuggets. They aren't. PER is useless in today's game, much less across eras. Hollinger be damned.

You are not worthy of a response if you honestly believe what you just said.

And LMAO putting Kobe Bryant in the same sentence as Lebron as a passer and then backing it up with a youtube highlight clip.

Magic is lucky he played in an era where the average NBA teams played at a pace higher than the 7 seconds or less Suns and that he played for a stacked team and a big market that overrated him as a player. He was a god awful shooter and defender but it did not matter that much because nobody played defense anyway (a tough foul does not make for good defense) and no teams forced teams to play slow and in halfcourt sets really and even when that happened Magic had the luxury of always lobbing the ball to KAJ.

Besides those 80s teams were no more stacked. For one thing it was only a couple teams that were stacked and for another you get blinded by raw stats accumulated in games that usually averaged more than 10 extra posessions.

Replace Lebron James with Magic Johnson and the Miami Heat and Cleveland Cavalliers teams all get SIGNIFICANTLY worse. Put Magic on any team in this era and he is only half the player he was against todays athletes, zone defenses, much slower halfcourt game.
 
Last edited:

SirStefan32

Krycek, Alex Krycek
Joined
Oct 15, 2002
Posts
18,497
Reaction score
4,913
Location
Harrisburg, PA
Anyone who compares LBJ to Magic hasn't really watched Magic very much. I know we, the Suns fans, hate the Lakers, but this is just silly.
 

D-Dogg

A Whole New World
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Posts
45,181
Reaction score
1,439
Location
In The End Zone
You are not worthy of a response if you honestly believe what you just said.

And LMAO putting Kobe Bryant in the same sentence as Lebron as a passer and then backing it up with a youtube highlight clip.

Which you didn't watch...obviously.



Magic is lucky he played in an era where the average NBA teams played at a pace higher than the 7 seconds or less Suns and that he played for a stacked team and a big market that overrated him as a player. He was a god awful shooter

He's a career 52% shooter you doof.

Replace Lebron James with Magic Johnson and the Miami Heat and Cleveland Cavalliers teams all get SIGNIFICANTLY worse. Put Magic on any team in this era and he is only half the player he was against todays athletes, zone defenses, much slower halfcourt game.

:biglaugh:

Like I said, your delusion is cute.
 

D-Dogg

A Whole New World
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Posts
45,181
Reaction score
1,439
Location
In The End Zone
Kobe's nowhere near the passer from a willing standpoint or vision standpoint IMO.

I agree on willingness completely. That's no question. However, he's very underrated as to vision, and I think Lebron is overrated as to vision. But again, I watch all Laker games and very few Lebron games.

Little known fact: every assist Kobe has gotten in his career was actually the result of an extremely bad air-ball.

But seriously, Donald, you lose any shred of credibility when you compare Kobe and LeBron as passers. LeBron is not magic, but he is one of the best passing wing men to ever play the game.

From a vision perspective, I think they are pretty close. The difference is in willing and want-to. If you had watched the mix, they both possess great court awareness and flash, only Kobe is looking to shoot first then pass, and LeBron is actively looking to pass. Which would account for the 2 APG differential between them (Kobe 5 APG, Lebron 7 APG) for their careers.

It's not as crazy as it seems to say that Kobe's got great passing skills because he does - it only sounds weird because he's a tremendous ballhog. Vision wise, the gap between them doesn't seem to be much.

Neither one of them could carry Magic's shoes for him though, so that noise needs to dissipate, and stat.
 

slinslin

Welcome to Amareca
Joined
Jun 28, 2002
Posts
16,855
Reaction score
562
Location
Hannover - Germany
He's a career 52% shooter you doof.



.


Ahahahaha and 30% from the 3pt line for most of his career he was under 20%. He was so bad from 3 it was not even in his repertoire. He was less of a threat from the perimeter than Rondo for the first 9 years of his career.

He would be a liability on the perimeter in todays halfcourt oriented game much like Rondo.

Rondo is shooting 48% on his career, must be a good shooter.
 
Last edited:

slinslin

Welcome to Amareca
Joined
Jun 28, 2002
Posts
16,855
Reaction score
562
Location
Hannover - Germany
From a vision perspective, I think they are pretty close. The difference is in willing and want-to. If you had watched the mix, they both possess great court awareness and flash, only Kobe is looking to shoot first then pass, and LeBron is actively looking to pass. Which would account for the 2 APG differential between them (Kobe 5 APG, Lebron 7 APG) for their careers.

It's not as crazy as it seems to say that Kobe's got great passing skills because he does - it only sounds weird because he's a tremendous ballhog. Vision wise, the gap between them doesn't seem to be much.


looooooooool

Kobe averages 4.7apg on his career and 3.0topg

Lebron averages 6.9apg on his career and 3.2topg

Your other claims are pretty funny too considering Lebron averages well over 2 assists more per game on his career, takes MORE shots than Kobe on his career and get to the line MORE than Kobe. Plus he is worlds better rebounder and defender than Kobe and all that. Kobe doesn't belong in the conversation.

And again you analyze based on a youtube highlight clip? It is too funny. Lebron James can actually lead an uptempo fastbreak offense. Kobe Bryant can't.

Lebron James has court vision to make incredible passes. Kobe Bryant makes passes when he draws the defenders away from other players.

They are not even close in terms of passing.
 
Last edited:

slinslin

Welcome to Amareca
Joined
Jun 28, 2002
Posts
16,855
Reaction score
562
Location
Hannover - Germany
I'm still enjoying you being the expert on an era in basketball... that you NEVER WATCHED.

And why should i even trust your "stats" when you're constantly making **** up like LeBron averaging 8 assists per game... or that Magic wasn't really a point guard. As to the rest of your stats, stats can be twisted to say anything you want... as you showed with your ridiculous use of stats "proving" that Robin Lopez was a better player than Gortat with that inane argument that was laughed off the face of the earth by everyone but you.

I mean... you're seriously arguing that Magic wasn't a PG. What universe do you live in?

You have some serious reading comprehension problems dude.

I said Lebron gets you around 8 apg every season. He is averaging 7.3 over the last 5 seasons including 8.6 in one.

And what don't you understand about Magic not starting at PG? He just was not or was it Byron Scott or Nixon etc starting at forward? By your argument you would have to call Lebron James a PG too.

There is no point in you trusting any stats since you would not understand them anyway as you proved when you claimed the 80s basketball were slowpaced defensive oriented and that Nash couldn't measure up to Stockton because Nash's stats are overrated due to pace. :bang:
 

D-Dogg

A Whole New World
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Posts
45,181
Reaction score
1,439
Location
In The End Zone
Ahahahaha and 30% from the 3pt line for most of his career he was under 20%. He was so bad from 3 it was not even in his repertoire. He was less of a threat from the perimeter than Rondo for the first 9 years of his career.

He would be a liability on the perimeter in todays halfcourt oriented game much like Rondo.

Rondo is shooting 48% on his career, must be a good shooter.

And that is where you simply don't get it. "Today's halfcourt game" would not be a challenge for Magic, because he'd push transistion and then in the half court set, he would still break down the defense...just like he always did. And you do know that the three point line was introduced in the NBA when he joined the league? People hadn't been shooting from the NBA three their whole lives before that, as they are today. Once again you are trying to compare stats without context.

BTW, your Rondo argument is a red herring. His game is primarily built on getting to the rim. In fact, shots AT THE RIM account for more than 47% of his attempts (4.43), and he shoots 60% on those. He doesn't shoot over 38% from any other spot on the court, and he only has 2.3 attempts per game from his second most common spot, 16-23 feet, where he shoots 38%.

Do the math yourself: http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Rajon Rondo

So no, Rondo is not a good "shooter" but he's great at the rim. So great at the rim, and so good at getting there, that it elevates a below 38% shooter to a nearly 50% shooter just on his ability to get to and finish at the rim. That wasn't Magic's game, so I'm going to take the educated guess (because I can't find similar floor percentage stats for Magic) that his shooting percentage was not inflated by a sick game at the rim.

And how dare you make me break down and compliment a dirty Celtic dbag. That might be the most offensive aspect of this entire conversation.
 

D-Dogg

A Whole New World
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Posts
45,181
Reaction score
1,439
Location
In The End Zone
You have some serious reading comprehension problems dude.

I said Lebron gets you around 8 apg every season. He is averaging 7.3 over the last 5 seasons including 8.6 in one.

And what don't you understand about Magic not starting at PG? He just was not or was it Byron Scott or Nixon etc starting at forward? By your argument you would have to call Lebron James a PG too.

There is no point in you trusting any stats since you would not understand them anyway as you proved when you claimed the 80s basketball were slowpaced defensive oriented and that Nash couldn't measure up to Stockton because Nash's stats are overrated due to pace. :bang:

HE STARTED AT PG!!! For God's sake, man. Nixon was moved fairly quickly after Magic came, and Byron Scott was not a freaking PG.

Coop was the small forward. Scott was the shooting guard.

Why are you so dense on this?
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
119,677
Reaction score
60,191
Not to change the focus, but I were to start a team in any era, I would select a young Kareem over any player and never look back. I think too many people forget how good he really was and only remember the tell end of his career.

Also Magic was that good. I firmly believe if a coach told Magic his job was to shut Lebron down he would do it. Magic would and could do anything that was asked of him.
 

D-Dogg

A Whole New World
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Posts
45,181
Reaction score
1,439
Location
In The End Zone
looooooooool

Kobe averages 4.7apg on his career and 3.0topg

Lebron averages 6.9apg on his career and 3.2topg

Your other claims are pretty funny too considering Lebron averages well over 2 assists more per game on his career,

So far you've said absolutely NOTHING that I haven't already. Good on ya.

takes MORE shots than Kobe on his career and get to the line MORE than Kobe. Plus he is worlds better rebounder and defender than Kobe and all that. Kobe doesn't belong in the conversation.

I'm guessing you meant Less shots, not more. But regardless, these are completely irrelevant to the discussion of court vision, which is what we are talking about.

And again you analyze based on a youtube highlight clip? It is too funny. Lebron James can actually lead an uptempo fastbreak offense. Kobe Bryant can't.

He can't? And you say this with what validation? Because I've actually seen him do it in stretches. He's never had the team for that, but in certain sets, he's definitely pushed transition offense and had no issue doing so.

I didn't "analyze" based on a youtube clip. I watched two clips (basically, the only ones there for either guy under similar searches) and compared the plays in 5 minute mixes that people thought were cool enough to show in a highlight reel mix. Both were impressive. Neither came close to Magic in a million years. Neither was head and shoulders above the other. I didn't look at LeBron's and think, man, that's the greatest passer I've seen in decades. I also didn't look at Kobe's and think, wow, he's so much better than LeBron at passing. They were both really, really good, exhibiting awesome court vision and awareness of cutters.

Lebron James has court vision to make incredible passes. Kobe Bryant makes passes when he draws the defenders away from other players.

They are not even close in terms of passing.

That's just dumb on its face. James does the exact same thing in drawing defenders and dishing. Kobe does the exact same thing in making a great pass while single covered. They do the same freaking types of passes, Mr. The World Must Be Black And White.

I'm waiting for an explanation on why there is only a 2 APG gap between the guys when one is the hyperbolic "greatest passer of his generation" while the other one is a notorious shoot-first-second-and-third ballhog for whom passing is the final option (slight hyperbole). You don't stumble into 5 APG career average, especially when you shoot as much as Kobe does.

And once again, final point...NEITHER IS REMOTELY THE PASSER THAT MAGIC WAS. Nor are either the passer that Nash, Paul, Deron, Rondo are.
 
Last edited:

D-Dogg

A Whole New World
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Posts
45,181
Reaction score
1,439
Location
In The End Zone
Not to change the focus, but I were to start a team in any era, I would select a young Kareem over any player and never look back. I think too many people forget how good he really was and only remember the tell end of his career.

Also Magic was that good. I firmly believe if a coach told Magic his job was to shut Lebron down he would do it. Magic would and could do anything that was asked of him.

I'd agree - my memories of Cap were as a Laker. He must have been a load in Milwaukee.

And yes, Magic could play defense when needed, but it was never a focus of his game. He could certainly buckle down and take the challenge and excel at it, though. But if you asked him, he'd go make it happen.

I like the "who would you draft" to start a team in any era argument. Most people would select Jordan first, I'm guessing.

I'd take Magic 1st, or 2nd if the other guy took Jordan. There's a lot more guys approaching Jordan's game than there are guys approaching Magic's. Then it comes down to Cap, Wilt or Shaq. Of course, if someone took Magic I'd have to choose between Oscar Robertson or Jerry West. :D
 

D-Dogg

A Whole New World
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Posts
45,181
Reaction score
1,439
Location
In The End Zone
I said Lebron gets you around 8 apg every season. He is averaging 7.3 over the last 5 seasons including 8.6 in one.

Lebron is a 7 APG guy. Let's not get all loose with your numbers. 7.3 is also not "around" 8. It is around 7.
 

slinslin

Welcome to Amareca
Joined
Jun 28, 2002
Posts
16,855
Reaction score
562
Location
Hannover - Germany
I'm guessing you meant Less shots, not more. But regardless, these are completely irrelevant to the discussion of court vision, which is what we are talking about.

And once again, final point...NEITHER IS REMOTELY THE PASSER THAT MAGIC WAS. Nor are either the passer that Nash, Paul, Deron, Rondo are.

So how come Steve Nash lead the majority of the greatest offenses in NBA history? While Magic is far away from that despite more talent on his teams.

And try harder Lebron averages 20.4FGA 8.8FTA, Kobe averages 19.6FGA and 7.6FTA.

So I repeat it for you again, despite taking MORE shots and going to the line MORE than Kobe, Lebron averages welll over 2 apg more than Kobe. It has nothing to do with Kobe looking for his shot more. Lebron is just miles better.
 

slinslin

Welcome to Amareca
Joined
Jun 28, 2002
Posts
16,855
Reaction score
562
Location
Hannover - Germany
I'd take Magic 1st, or 2nd if the other guy took Jordan. There's a lot more guys approaching Jordan's game than there are guys approaching Magic's. Then it comes down to Cap, Wilt or Shaq. Of course, if someone took Magic I'd have to choose between Oscar Robertson or Jerry West. :D

Taking Magic over Jordan, Russell, Wilt and KAJ is just stupid and taking him over Shaq, Hakeem and Duncan very questionable.
 

slinslin

Welcome to Amareca
Joined
Jun 28, 2002
Posts
16,855
Reaction score
562
Location
Hannover - Germany
HE STARTED AT PG!!! For God's sake, man. Nixon was moved fairly quickly after Magic came, and Byron Scott was not a freaking PG.

Coop was the small forward. Scott was the shooting guard.

Why are you so dense on this?

HE STARTED AT PG!!! For God's sake, man. Nixon was moved fairly quickly after Magic came, and Byron Scott was not a freaking PG.

Coop was the small forward. Scott was the shooting guard.

Why are you so dense on this?

........ most used lineups

1980
Kareem Abdul Jabba 7'2
Nick Chones 6'11
Magic Johnson 6'8
Jamal Wilkes 6'6
Norm Nixon 6'2

1981
basically same lineup with Michael Cooper in place of Magic lots of games

1982
Kareem Abdul Jabba 7'2
Nick Chones 6'11
Magic Johnson 6'8
Michael Cooper 6'5
Norm Nixon 6'2

1983
same lineup with Worthy 6th most minutes

from 1985 on it was Byron Scott and Michael Cooper along with Worthy, Magic and KAJ.

Tell me how many seasons was Magic the starter at the PG position regardless of how many assists he got. How many seasons did he regularly guard the other teams starter at PG?
 

slinslin

Welcome to Amareca
Joined
Jun 28, 2002
Posts
16,855
Reaction score
562
Location
Hannover - Germany
The Greatest Offenses in NBA History

1. 2007 Phoenix Suns PG Nash
2. 2005 Phoenix Suns PG Nash
3. 1971 Milwaukee Bucks PG Oscar Robertson + KAJ
4. 2010 Phoenix Suns PG Nash
5. 1982 Denver Nuggets English/Issel/Vandeweghe
6. 2004 Dallas Mavericks PG Nash
7. 1975 Houston Rockets Murphy/Tomjanovic
8. 1987 Los Angeles Lakers PG Magic + Worthy/KAJ
9. 2004 Sacremento Kings Bibby/Peja/Webber/Divac
10. 2006 Phoenix Suns PG Nash
11. 2009 Phoenix Suns PG Nash

Claiming that Magic is on another level compared to Nash is a passer is ridiculous. You can claim alot of things that Magic was better defensively which is questionable or that he was better rebounder which is obvious. But claiming the is in another league as a passer is ridiculous.

Steve Nash lead the best offensive team of all time, the 2nd best, the 4th best, the 6th best and 2 more in the top 11. Magic lead the 8th best.


Also claiming that Magic was not on totally stacked teams is a joke. KAJ was a #1 pick, Worthy was a #1 pick, McAdoo was a #2 pick, Scott was a #4 pick could name more. Half his teams were made up of top 5 picks and the rest of top 15 picks.
 
Last edited:

D-Dogg

A Whole New World
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Posts
45,181
Reaction score
1,439
Location
In The End Zone
So how come Steve Nash lead the majority of the greatest offenses in NBA history? While Magic is far away from that despite more talent on his teams.

And this is relevant how?

And try harder Lebron averages 20.4FGA 8.8FTA, Kobe averages 19.6FGA and 7.6FTA.

So I repeat it for you again, despite taking MORE shots and going to the line MORE than Kobe, Lebron averages welll over 2 apg more than Kobe. It has nothing to do with Kobe looking for his shot more. Lebron is just miles better.

So you are again looking at stats without context. Career stats take into account all seasons. Kobe's first two seasons he played limited minutes, and averaged 6 attempts and 12 attempts. He became a starter in his third season, getting up 15 per game. From his 5th season on, there is only 1 year where he averaged less than 20 shots per game.

You can't make an apple to apple career number comparison there, since LeBron has never had a bench-sitting time. He's always been the focal point of his offense.

Here's a comparison of the two in seasons they started:

Code:
Season	Age	Tm	Lg	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS	
Career			NBA	1161	1013	38.8	9.5	21.0	0.454	1.3	4.0	0.33	6.8	8.1	0.84	1.2	4.5	5.7	5.1	1.6	0.5	3.1	2.7	27.1	
Career			NBA	689	688	39.9	9.9	20.4	0.483	1.3	4	0.331	6.6	8.8	0.746	1.2	5.9	7.2	6.9	1.7	0.8	3.3	1.9	27.6

Neither is "miles better" either, slin. Not in Germany, not on Pluto.

When you factor in that Kobe has had better teammates and STILL put up higher attempts per game, it's pretty clear that he's shooting first and asking questions later, while LeBron is not.

Once again, it's funny that you are arguing against Kobe being a ballhog...he is. It's his fatal flaw - he gives a damn about being efficient. He's been doing it for 17 years now, which is what makes him special, and it's not falling off yet.

Now, stay on topic...stats aren't going to give you "court vision" or "passing ability." If you want to make the argument that Kobe is a more willing passer than LeBron, you will get laughed off a cliff. That is pretty much a MUST concede. So, if he's so freaking amazing, and Kobe is the ballhog we all know him to be, doncha think he should be more than 2 APG ahead of Kobe? You're trying to compare LeBron to MAGIC EFFING JOHNSON here, brother...and I'm having issues with him being all that much better than Kobe Bryant...he's a better passer, sure, but not THAT MUCH better. And again, nether is in Magic's general planetary orbit.
 

Staff online

Forum statistics

Threads
556,971
Posts
5,442,105
Members
6,333
Latest member
Martin Eden
Top