The Official 2012 NBA Finals Thread: MIA vs. OKC

[95pro]

So you ask anybody who watched the NBA in the 80's to today and they'll tell you todays league is watered down talent wise. and yet one of the best players on the court in the 80's, Magic, would be less effective in todays' watered down NBA?

I couldn't hate the Lakers in those years because they had Rambis who went to my HS, but I wasn't a fan and certainly not a Magic fan, but he was an amazing player. UCLA has a kid this coming season named Kyle Anderson that people are comparing to magic and I keep complaining how unfair it is to compared a kid who has not played a single college game to one of the alltime greats.

Magic would be a star in any era, he was just an amazing player.

talent??? how many more amazing athletes are in the game today, versus the two of the 80's in Magic and Bird. it's definite more dificult in today's game to become a legend.

Todays "watered down NBA" is a total myth.

You put Lebron in the 80s and he would be even more dominant player than what he is in this era.

Those are romantic thoughts but truth is that the quality is getting better not worse. Players are faster, stronger, bigger, quicker.. coaching schemes and tactics evolve. This is true in basketball, soccer, football, hockey and whatever.

There will always be someone better, there will be someone that is better than MJ and then someone that is going to be better than that guy. It is inevitable.

You can say Pele was a great player in his era, but if you were to put him into todays soccer world as he was , he would have a hard time to even make a first division team.

that's a great way to look at, what if you put LeBron back in the 80's what will happen? im not saying Lebron has what it takes yet in crunch time or the 4th quarter. but his stats would be inflated.

 

[slinslin]

here is the realgm top 100 list from LAST year, i cut it off at 25 because really it is just too long... Keep in mind that this list evaluates length of career and all that which is why active players like Lebron and Howard who are still only at 26 or 25 at the time are not rated that highly.
Also many of the voters did value championships.

1) Michael Jordan
2) Bill Russell
3) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) Magic Johnson
5) Wilt Chamberlain
6) Larry Bird
7) Shaquille O'Neal
8) Tim Duncan
9) Hakeem Olajuwon
10) Kobe Bryant
11) Julius Erving
12) Karl Malone
13) Kevin Garnett
14) Oscar Robertson
15) Jerry West
16) Moses Malone
17) Dirk Nowitzki
18) LeBron James
19) Bob Pettit
20) Charles Barkley
21) David Robinson
22) Dwyane Wade
23) Walt Frazier
24) Steve Nash
25) Scottie Pippen

Unless I counted poorly 7 of the all time top 25 players are currently active. Hard to say the league watered down.

 

[elindholm]

The talent level is higher today. In the 80s, Truck Robinson was an above-average PF, Kyle Macy was a decent third guard off the bench, and Jeff Cook was a credible backup C, all on a playoff team. No way would players like that achieve comparable status in today's league.

 

[desertdawg]

One of my strongest earliest B-ball memories was when Magic went Magic on the Phx Suns. I do not recall which year it was, I know I was still in Pop Warner but anyways the Suns were up by like 3 points or so with point nothing left on the clock, I thought it was basically over. Magic goes inside, gets it to drop, gets the foul, goes to the line a point down. About a second on the clock, shoots the free throw super hard at the front of the rim, ball goes right back to him, shoots the jumper as the horn sounds, cash money, Lakers won, that was someone doing something that I "witnessed". I might have some parts wrong but I remember the crushed/amazed feeling all at the same time.

 

[Cheesebeef]

One of my strongest earliest B-ball memories was when Magic went Magic on the Phx Suns. I do not recall which year it was, I know I was still in Pop Warner but anyways the Suns were up by like 3 points or so with point nothing left on the clock, I thought it was basically over. Magic goes inside, gets it to drop, gets the foul, goes to the line a point down. About a second on the clock, shoots the free throw super hard at the front of the rim, ball goes right back to him, shoots the jumper as the horn sounds, cash money, Lakers won, that was someone doing something that I "witnessed". I might have some parts wrong but I remember the crushed/amazed feeling all at the same time.

yeah... I remember another one where the suns had lost something ridiculous like 19 straight in LA and we were up 1 with seconds left and Magic backed down T.R. Dunn from about 17 feet out and then just turned and shot a jumper over him for a swish with no time left.

seriously... this conversation that Magic wasn't a PG... because he didn't guard other PGs and PGs didn't guard him is assinine. he was the league leader in assists when he retired, he ran the offense and it was his size advantage that made the Lakers such a nightmare from matchup standpoints.

 

[Cheesebeef]

here is the realgm top 100 list from LAST year, i cut it off at 25 because really it is just too long... Keep in mind that this list evaluates length of career and all that which is why active players like Lebron and Howard who are still only at 26 or 25 at the time are not rated that highly.
Also many of the voters did value championships.



Unless I counted poorly 7 of the all time top 25 players are currently active. Hard to say the league watered down.

you do realize in that list that you counted as "proof" that the league isn't watered down (even though it's just some list off the internet that anyone could have written) puts Magic as the best 4th best player of all time, completely refuting you're idea that Magic wasn't that special.

 

[D-Dogg]

Here's how stats without context are useless (and yes, I'm going to piss off some of you by showing Kobe is a better shooter than LeBron.)

Rondo 47.4%
Kobe 45.3%
Lebron 50.1%
Wade 48.5%
Nash 51.2%

Going by this list, Nash is the best shooter, LeBron is the second best and Kobe is the worst, correct?

However, since I had so much fun dissecting Rondo's shooting from spots, showing how the huge majority of his offense comes at the rim where he shoots 60%, I decided to pull in some other guys to look at. Shooting at the rim isn't "shooting" for the purpose of this exercise. I want to find who is the better pure shooter on this list. Not who is the best around the rim.

Here's how it all breaks down.

As a percentage of offensive attempts, it breaks down like this:

Name	Rim	3 to 9	10 to 15	16-23	3 point
Rondo	47.2%	14.4%	6.7%	25.2%	6.4%
Kobe	20.7%	10.6%	14.7%	32.4%	21.6%
LeBron	33.9%	9.8%	8.2%	27.7%	20.4%
Wade	36.9%	10.5%	9.5%	31.2%	11.9%
Nash	17.8%	8.7%	13.8%	28.7%	31.0%

So Rondo is BY FAR getting most of his shots at the rim, followed by Wade and LeBron, then far off is Kobe and Nash. Kobe shoots the most from 16-23, Nash from 3. Kobe and Nash shoot the most from 10-15. Kobe and Lebron shoot about the same number of threes. Smartly (given his crappy 3pt%) Rondo doesn't shoot many threes.

So, how well do they shoot from each of those spots?

Name	Rim	3 to 9	10 to 15	16-23	3 point
Rondo	60.2%	37.0%	36.8%	38.0%	25.0%
Kobe	63.4%	47.1%	46.3%	40.6%	33.6%
LeBron	73.0%	46.6%	36.7%	39.3%	33.5%
Wade	66.0%	47.9%	39.8%	38.2%	28.9%
Nash	67.8%	50.8%	51.1%	48.7%	44.1%

No surprise, Nash rocks the shooting percentage across the board, and shoots better from midrange than close range, even.

But LeBron (the overall shooting percentage second place player) is not second place on any of the categories outside of the Rim (where he shoots a whopping 73 percent..and where he takes most of his shots). In fact, he is 4th from 3-9 feet, last from 10-15, 3rd from 16-23 and 3rd from three by a nose. Conversely, Kobe is second in all ranges other than the Rim where he is 4th and 3-9 feet where he is nosed out by Wade. But he's better from 10-15, 16-23 and 3 pointers than anyone on that list not named Steve Nash.

Kobe only takes 20 percent of his shots at the rim, which hurts his overall shooting percentages. LeBron takes 34% of them from there (and shoots an amazing 73%) which helps his overall shooting percentage.

So, from that list and statistical analysis I can say three things - Steve Nash is an incredible shooter, and should shoot more. LeBron and Kobe are just about an identical from 3 in both attempts and percentage. Kobe is a better "shooter" than LeBron, meaning that if a jumpshot is needed and you have both those guys to choose from with your life on the line, statistically you should take Kobe because he's the better "shooter." If he's able to get a shot at the rim, you'd want LeBron because he makes more shots.

And honestly, it's probably why I'm not such a big fan of LeBron and why I kind of find his game boring. I like the midrange game, the tough jumper and the turnaround jumper a lot more than the close range play (for viewing). LeBron makes his living at the rim...which makes for awesome highlight plays for sure, but a lot of it is bulling in for layups.

There you go, slin. I just gave you stats on why Kobe is a better shooter than LeBron. Lebron is a MUCH better player around the rim. Not the "miles" you were hoping for.

 

[D-Dogg]

One of their guards was Scott and the other Cooper and then they had Worthy. It was not just one guard along with Magic.

WORTHY WASN'T A GUARD!

AAAAAAAAACK!!!!

Cooper was a tweener SF who was a long range shooter and defender. He rarely handled the Rock. Scott and Worthy would push the ball upcourt every once in awhile, but that was as an outlet on the break...similar to someone like Lamar Odom pushing the break as a forward...Worthy was a damn forward (and my third favorite Laker of all time).

 

[slinslin]

I never said Worthy was a guard. I said one of their guards was Scott and the other Cooper. l2r

 

[Chaplin]

Here's how stats without context are useless (and yes, I'm going to piss off some of you by showing Kobe is a better shooter than LeBron.)

Rondo 47.4%
Kobe 45.3%
Lebron 50.1%
Wade 48.5%
Nash 51.2%

Going by this list, Nash is the best shooter, LeBron is the second best and Kobe is the worst, correct?

However, since I had so much fun dissecting Rondo's shooting from spots, showing how the huge majority of his offense comes at the rim where he shoots 60%, I decided to pull in some other guys to look at. Shooting at the rim isn't "shooting" for the purpose of this exercise. I want to find who is the better pure shooter on this list. Not who is the best around the rim.

Here's how it all breaks down.

As a percentage of offensive attempts, it breaks down like this:

Name	Rim	3 to 9	10 to 15	16-23	3 point
Rondo	47.2%	14.4%	6.7%	25.2%	6.4%
Kobe	20.7%	10.6%	14.7%	32.4%	21.6%
LeBron	33.9%	9.8%	8.2%	27.7%	20.4%
Wade	36.9%	10.5%	9.5%	31.2%	11.9%
Nash	17.8%	8.7%	13.8%	28.7%	31.0%

So Rondo is BY FAR getting most of his shots at the rim, followed by Wade and LeBron, then far off is Kobe and Nash. Kobe shoots the most from 16-23, Nash from 3. Kobe and Nash shoot the most from 10-15. Kobe and Lebron shoot about the same number of threes. Smartly (given his crappy 3pt%) Rondo doesn't shoot many threes.

So, how well do they shoot from each of those spots?

Name	Rim	3 to 9	10 to 15	16-23	3 point
Rondo	60.2%	37.0%	36.8%	38.0%	25.0%
Kobe	63.4%	47.1%	46.3%	40.6%	33.6%
LeBron	73.0%	46.6%	36.7%	39.3%	33.5%
Wade	66.0%	47.9%	39.8%	38.2%	28.9%
Nash	67.8%	50.8%	51.1%	48.7%	44.1%

No surprise, Nash rocks the shooting percentage across the board, and shoots better from midrange than close range, even.

But LeBron (the overall shooting percentage second place player) is not second place on any of the categories outside of the Rim (where he shoots a whopping 73 percent..and where he takes most of his shots). In fact, he is 4th from 3-9 feet, last from 10-15, 3rd from 16-23 and 3rd from three by a nose. Conversely, Kobe is second in all ranges other than the Rim where he is 4th and 3-9 feet where he is nosed out by Wade. But he's better from 10-15, 16-23 and 3 pointers than anyone on that list not named Steve Nash.

Kobe only takes 20 percent of his shots at the rim, which hurts his overall shooting percentages. LeBron takes 34% of them from there (and shoots an amazing 73%) which helps his overall shooting percentage.

So, from that list and statistical analysis I can say three things - Steve Nash is an incredible shooter, and should shoot more. LeBron and Kobe are just about an identical from 3 in both attempts and percentage. Kobe is a better "shooter" than LeBron, meaning that if a jumpshot is needed and you have both those guys to choose from with your life on the line, statistically you should take Kobe because he's the better "shooter." If he's able to get a shot at the rim, you'd want LeBron because he makes more shots.

And honestly, it's probably why I'm not such a big fan of LeBron and why I kind of find his game boring. I like the midrange game, the tough jumper and the turnaround jumper a lot more than the close range play (for viewing). LeBron makes his living at the rim...which makes for awesome highlight plays for sure, but a lot of it is bulling in for layups.

There you go, slin. I just gave you stats on why Kobe is a better shooter than LeBron. Lebron is a MUCH better player around the rim. Not the "miles" you were hoping for.

Still not sure why Nash is even figuring into this. I think he's the best shooter the league has ever seen, but he has a lot of deficiencies that prevent him from being mentioned with Magic as the best PG in the game.

 

[D-Dogg]

I never said Worthy was a guard. I said one of their guards was Scott and the other Cooper. l2r

"...and then they had Worthy. It was not just one guard along with Magic."

l2w.

More importantly, know when you are adding context to a sentence so you don't put it in there if it isn't desired. Why bring up Worthy in a sentence about guards along side Magic, naming two and saying "and then they had Worthy" and talk about how it wasn't just one guard?

Since you already clearly didn't know that Coop was a tweener guard/forward who played the SF position when on the floor with Scott, who knows wtf else you weren't aware of.

 

[D-Dogg]

Still not sure why Nash is even figuring into this. I think he's the best shooter the league has ever seen, but he has a lot of deficiencies that prevent him from being mentioned with Magic as the best PG in the game.

Nothing to do with the Magic discussion. This is another tangent started when slin posed the idea that Magic was a horrid shooter, and then said Rondo has a good shooting percentage...so I wanted to expand on the Rondo stats to look at Rondo, Wade, Kobe and LeBron, and decided to throw Nash in there for two reasons..one, I was curious about how good Nash really is, and also so that Kobe wouldn't be the top result (which he was after my initial stat list without him on it.)

 

[slinslin]

Nothing to do with the Magic discussion. This is another tangent started when slin posed the idea that Magic was a horrid shooter, and then said Rondo has a good shooting percentage...so I wanted to expand on the Rondo stats to look at Rondo, Wade, Kobe and LeBron, and decided to throw Nash in there for two reasons..one, I was curious about how good Nash really is, and also so that Kobe wouldn't be the top result (which he was after my initial stat list without him on it.)

huh?

You were the one who claimed MAgic was a good shooter because he shot 52%FG.

I only brought up Rondo as an EXAMPLE that overall FG% means nothing evaluating a shooter.

Magic was a bad shooter, as bad as Rondo pretty much.

 

[Cheesebeef]

huh?

You were the one who claimed MAgic was a good shooter because he shot 52%FG.

I only brought up Rondo as an EXAMPLE that overall FG% means nothing evaluating a shooter.

Magic was a bad shooter, as bad as Rondo pretty much.

how bad of a shooter could he have been? he was a pretty poor shooter early in his career, but he became a much better shooter the last five or six years of his career. And Rondo ewas a 61% percent free throw shooter while Magic was a career 84% free throw shooter. BAD shooters DON'T shoot 84% from the line. Comparing those two is ludicrous and just further shows what we already know... that you never watched Magic play and have no clue what his game was.

edit: i'm sorry... he wasn't an 84% Free Throw shooter... he was an 86% percent free throw shooter. Yeah, he couldn't shoot a lick and was just as bad as Rondo pretty much... even though their games were nothing close to each other and neither was their free throw shooting.

now, I'm sure you'll say "he couldn't shoot the three!" but that doesn't mean he wasn't a good shooter. he just wasn't a long-range shooter... but then again, not everyone is. He had a pretty solid midrange game as he got older.

but you wouldn't know any of that because you never watched him play.

 

[D-Dogg]

huh?

You were the one who claimed MAgic was a good shooter because he shot 52%FG.

I only brought up Rondo as an EXAMPLE that overall FG% means nothing evaluating a shooter.

Magic was a bad shooter, as bad as Rondo pretty much.

And I was the one who showed, via stats with appropriate context, that almost ALL of Rondo's 47% shooting was attributed to him shooting most his shots at the rim. Everywhere else he's 38% and below. Since that's his game, that's why. That wasn't Magic's game...so unless you have stats to show the same, buck up and admit that Magic's 52% shooting percentage was reflective of his shooting ability, not that he got to the rack all the time.

 

[95pro]

The talent level is higher today. In the 80s, Truck Robinson was an above-average PF, Kyle Macy was a decent third guard off the bench, and Jeff Cook was a credible backup C, all on a playoff team. No way would players like that achieve comparable status in today's league.

Thank you

 

[Russ Smith]

Todays "watered down NBA" is a total myth.

You put Lebron in the 80s and he would be even more dominant player than what he is in this era.

Those are romantic thoughts but truth is that the quality is getting better not worse. Players are faster, stronger, bigger, quicker.. coaching schemes and tactics evolve. This is true in basketball, soccer, football, hockey and whatever.

There will always be someone better, there will be someone that is better than MJ and then someone that is going to be better than that guy. It is inevitable.

You can say Pele was a great player in his era, but if you were to put him into todays soccer world as he was , he would have a hard time to even make a first division team.

I don't think it is I think if they started calling it by the rules todays players would quickly be exposed for having no midrange game, constantly carrying the ball(which was unusual in the 80's) etc. They allowed rampant travelling in the 80's too, but carrying is something that really got common in the last 10-15 years, I really blame the And 1 mixtape stuff it started to bleed over into the game at every level and the NBA has not done enough to stop it.

There are still good players, but so many kids come in early now, the level of play has dropped off, and fundamentals are terrible.

There are also far less good bigmen around these days, not sure why that's true but it is.

 

[Russ Smith]

talent??? how many more amazing athletes are in the game today, versus the two of the 80's in Magic and Bird. it's definite more dificult in today's game to become a legend.



that's a great way to look at, what if you put LeBron back in the 80's what will happen? im not saying Lebron has what it takes yet in crunch time or the 4th quarter. but his stats would be inflated.

You're talking athlete, I'm talking basketball player. Isiah Thomas in his prime would kill most of todays NBA Pg's, there are some who could hang with him not many. Stockton in his prime was great.

Hell I wouldn't include Bird and Magic among the top 50 ATHLETES of their era at all, players they were arguably the 2 best of their era.

Dominique was among the best athletes of his era and Bird ate him alive for his whole career. I hated Larry Bird, just hated him, but the guy was unguardable, I don't care what era he played in he'd be able to score.

 

[Russ Smith]

The talent level is higher today. In the 80s, Truck Robinson was an above-average PF, Kyle Macy was a decent third guard off the bench, and Jeff Cook was a credible backup C, all on a playoff team. No way would players like that achieve comparable status in today's league.

Todays old worn down Celtics took Miami to the wire. If todays Celtics played the Bird/McHale/Parish Celtics they'd probably get swept.

Garnett covers Bird who covers Parish and McHale?

Todays players are more athletic, but they have no idea how to play basketball they fixate on the dunk and the 3 pointer because that's what is on ESPN every night.

If they didn't allow carrying and moving screens I'm not sure todays teams would know how to score.

 

[carrrnuttt]

Some of you guys act like people from the 90's and older don't know what the hell being an athlete is about. Even with our modern technology, world records from decades ago are still being beat in increments of milliseconds. FloJo's records from the 80's still stand today.

You add to the fact that basketball is a game of skill, not just athleticism.



^ Feel free to point where in those old school videos where any of those wouldn't be considered a highlight even in today's "much more athletic/skilled" NBA?

 

[D-Dogg]

Some of you guys act like people from the 90's and older don't know what the hell being an athlete is about. Even with our modern technology, world records from decades ago are still being beat in increments of milliseconds. FloJo's records from the 80's still stand today.

You add to the fact that basketball is a game of skill, not just athleticism.

^ Feel free to point where in those old school videos where any of those wouldn't be considered a highlight even in today's "much more athletic/skilled" NBA?

but, but, but, they aren't putting their elbows in the rim on dunks! they aren't doing 12 crossovers while palming the ball! They aren't shooting three after three and bricks from midrange! What is that game they are playing?

 

[chickenhead]

A few opinions based on the past few pages:

-Don't bother speculating what Magic would do today or what Lebron would do in he 80s. So players are bigger and stronger now. The only logical projection in my mind as that we'd have a bigger and stronger Magic. Or Lebron would be a product of the 80s instead of the 00s. If Magic and Bird hadn't revived the league Lebron might now even be playing basketball. He might be the center fielder for the Cleveland Indians. I mean, the Miami Marlins.

-The Showtime Lakers were a super team. No, it wasn't "The Decision," but it was before free agency when Kareem requested the trade (to LA or NY). And like Chamberlain before him and O'Neal after him, he became the dominant piece in the Laker championship puzzle. Plus the Lakers had the Magic pick because of their weird Jedi mind-tricks over other teams' GMs. But I don't bring this up to discredit Magic's ability by any means.

-I'm all for stats, but it's hard for me to accept the 07 Suns as the greatest offense ever. Most efficient in the regular season? Okay. But even with the suspensions (excuse me while I go break something--and I'm back), the greatest offense in history doesn't lose that series 4-2. Unless we're willing to call the Spurs the greatest defense ever?

-Regarding Magic as a PG, I don't hold Magic's versatility against him.

-Until the standings are done rotisserie-style, championships matter. Magic won 5. And he won them against the 76ers (2), Celtics (2), and Pistons. Those opponents won every non-Laker championship between Seattle in 1978 and Chicago in 1991. He won them against the best: Lebron has won nothing against the best.

But he might, and soon, and for a while. Game 4 is tonight.

 

[sunsfan88]

"LeBron's not a good defender. He can't play (Kevin Durant) one-on-one. They're playing good defense like a team," Ibaka told the newspaper.

LeBron responds...

"I don't really care what he says, he's stupid," James said. "Everyone says something to me every series, then (the media) tries to get a quote. It's stupid."

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/201...ds-oklahoma-city-thunder-serge-ibaka-comments

Is Ibaka out of his mind? Their trailing the series and now he's trying to pump up LeBron even more? If I'm Durant, I'm pissed at Ibaka right now.
​

 

[D-Dogg]

^Are you a Laker fan?

Seriously?

 

[SirStefan32]

Todays "watered down NBA" is a total myth.

You put Lebron in the 80s and he would be even more dominant player than what he is in this era.

That's just silly. If Lebron played in the 80's, he would be crying by the end of the first quarter. The physicality of the game back in the day would make any of today's "superstars" much less effective.

The whole argument is just ridiculous- LBJ may have the talent that Magic had, but even after so many years in the league, he doesn't have the leadership skills magic had in his rookie year. I can't believe we are even talking about this. LBJ and Magic are not even in the same league.