The Official 2012 NBA Finals Thread: MIA vs. OKC

[95pro]

Was terrible watching Wade get all those calls tonight.

 

[sunsfan88]

Seriously?

Serious question cause you said that you watch every Kobe game....

I didn't mean in anyway to mock you.

 

[WarnerHOF]

Ya, dont understand why everyone was on the Thunder's balls before this series. The Thunder are never going to beat till the HEAT till they get a big man that isn't completely incompetent.

 

[desertdawg]

OKC will win this Finals, book it , what evs.

 

[Phrazbit]

Absolutely. He's boring, bro. BOR-ING. Doesn't mean he doesn't fill the sheet, just means I can't stand watching him because his game is boring. I called out the two plays that were exciting, the three and the pass to Wade. The rest was just blah. Tim Duncan is boring as hell too, but a great player. John Stockton is one of the best PGs to ever play but boring as watching paint dry. LeBron is fantastic, but also boring.

I cant fathom how someone would call LeBron "boring" in comparison to a player like Kobe. Watching a guy dribble the clock away only shoot jumpers at a 42% clip is exciting ball?

I cant stand LeBron but the guy is a terror on the court. He is the most exciting player on the break, both offensively and defensively, in the league, and now that he has added a pretty solid post game he is probably the league's most versitle scorer... and an elite passer at his position... and rebounder... and shot blocker... but he is apparently dull?

 

[sunsfan88]

^^I agree.

LeBron is my 3rd favorite athlete to watch behind Rose & Westbrook.

Definitely not boring.

 

[DWKB]

My man comes up BIG!!

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[D-Dogg]

lol... I think you (and maybe every other Laker fan) are the only people in the world that would compare LeBron's game to Duncan/Stockton.

that's asinine.

the cold hard truth that you won't admit is that you can't stand to watch him because people have been saying he's better than Kobe for years... and it hurts you that someone's in that convo... and now it hurts you even more that he's about to start winning titles.

LeBron's game is like Duncan/Stockton. That's about as dumb as anything Slin has said on this thread... and that's saying A LOT. I mean come on... if he was that boring, why in the world would his jersey constantly either be the number 1 or 2 selling jersey in the league? I'm pretty sure Duncan/Stockton never sold jerseys... because those guys WERE BORING.

Sorry, I simply don't like the style of his game and I never have. I'd rather watch Rondo play than LeBron. I find Paul Pierce just as boring. I find Wade exciting, not LeBron. That's a personal preference. I didn't say his game was like Duncan/Stockton, either...I said it is just as boring as theirs, and they are both great too. LeBron's game is predicated on powering through the paint and attacking the rim. That doesn't impress me.

Shaq didn't really impress me either - he was sheer physicality. I never really liked KAJ all that much either. I like fast guard play, stop and pop, skilled shooting outside, fancy moves at the rim, etc. While I detest the Suns, Nash is the kind of player that I love to watch play.

NONE of that is LeBron's game. I concede his stats, his ability and his greatness. He's worthy of comparison to the greats, no doubt. I simply don't enjoy the style he plays with. Others do. I find him boring. There's nothing wrong with that, but when I see he's got 6 assists in the first half and I can't remember one that stands out, nor any of his shots because they were all easy layups, I'm not ecstatic to watch him. The fact he gets easy layups and doesn't need to switch hands or whatever is testament to how good he is, but big whoop. Wade made 4 times the exciting plays as LeBron in that game, including one up and under layup that was ridiculous. I like that too.

The one thing that I do love watching LeBron do is block shots, because he's sick at that especially when trailing, but I don't recall any of that in the game last night.

 

[D-Dogg]

Serious question cause you said that you watch every Kobe game....

I didn't mean in anyway to mock you.

Seriously was because I didn't think anyone DIDN'T know I am a Laker fan.

 

[Russ Smith]

All that means is that the mid-80s Celtics were better than the current Celtics or the Bosh-less Heat, which I don't think anyone would disagree with.

I thnk the Bird/McHale/Parish Celtics would take the Heat in 5, maybe sweep them.

I hated that team but that team had killers on it. No layups, they had guys like DJ and Ainge(depending on the year etc) who always seemed to make the huge shot when needed, they had stars, role players etc and they flat out knew how to play.

Miami is playing 4 perimeter players and Bosh is their post(or Haslem). The great Boston teams would simply destroy them in the post with that size they had.

In many sports I completely agree with the argument todays guys are better, basketball is not one of those sports. They're more athletic, but not better.

Dwight Howard is an elite C today, Darryl Dawkins was a very similar player in his day similar size and athletic ability, and Dawkins was a non starteer sideshow player most of his career. I think Howard is better than Dawkins but not by nearly as much as statistics would lead you to believe, it's just there's so few good bigs today a guy like howard can dominate without knowing what he's doing.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think he's got much more talent than those guys, but is really a solid #2 and a great #3. He's a young Ginobli, but if Ginobli hadn't played with a HOF in Duncan and Parker, he wouldn't be near as special.

I think young Manu was a better defender than Harden is though.

There were 4 dagger plays in last nights game IMO. The first was Cole's 3 to end the first quarter that started the comeback. The 2nd was Harden blowing the dunk/layup after the steal. The 3rd was Fisher inexplicably lofting a floater 5 on 3 that Wade swatted on the play where LeBron got hurt. The last was LeBron's 3 to put them up 3.

People are fixating on the foul by Westbrook because of when it happened but even there that never happens if Durant went after the ball instead of just reaching letting Battier outhustle him. Durant is a great player but he's GOT to get tougher. Westbrook makes mental mistakes and takes bad shots but he's never going to lose a game because he doesn't want it bad enough, that's what happened last night with Durant and Harden, they didn't go after it hard enough.

 

[slinslin]

Dwight Howard is an elite C today, Darryl Dawkins was a very similar player in his day similar size and athletic ability, and Dawkins was a non starteer sideshow player most of his career. I think Howard is better than Dawkins but not by nearly as much as statistics would lead you to believe, it's just there's so few good bigs today a guy like howard can dominate without knowing what he's doing.

Please.... come on man.. ridiculous. Dwight Howard is MILES better than Dawkins, the though that Howard in the 80s would be another Dawkins and roleplayers is absolutely absurd.

The bigs of the this current era (Duncan, Garnett, Howard, Nowitzki, Shaq) would be elite players in any era but continue overrating the retired players.

Ewing, Olajuwon, Robinson, Mourning were no better than Duncan, Garnett, Howard, Nowitkzi.

Duncan > Olajuwon, Garnett > Robinson, Nowitzki, Howard > Ewing

Alonzo Mourning doesn't even belong in the conversation really.

 

[Russ Smith]

Please.... come on man.. ridiculous. Dwight Howard is MILES better than Dawkins, the though that Howard in the 80s would be another Dawkins and roleplayers is absolutely absurd.

The bigs of the this current era (Duncan, Garnett, Howard, Nowitzki, Shaq) would be elite players in any era but continue overrating the retired players.

Ewing, Olajuwon, Robinson, Mourning were no better than Duncan, Garnett, Howard, Nowitkzi.

Duncan > Olajuwon, Garnett > Robinson, Nowitzki, Howard > Ewing

Alonzo Mourning doesn't even belong in the conversation really.

Garnett and Dirk aren't even 5's, Garnett was a 3 much of his career and is now moving inside more as he got older. Dirk is not a 5.

Howard's game is all power, size and dunking the ball. he's a better rebounder than Dawkins was but the offense is the exact same game. I think he's better than Dawkins, he has a better work ethic, Dawkins was one of those guys who didn't seem to care as long as he made some money and got women.

But Dawkins in todays game would be a much better player because there just aren't that many guys his size who can move like he could. I'm not clear on how someone who was about 5 when Dawkins last played a healthy NBA season(he hung on for several years with back problems and retired in 89) is such an expert on players of that era? Dawkins like Howard was straight out of HS, he was on a team that had Dr J and McGinnis and Cheeks etc so he was never a star but he had years of 14+ 7-8 RPG. his best year was a hair under 15 PPG 9 RPG 61% from the floor and 72% from the line. He was a good player whose image overshadowed his actual game. Again, Howard is better but not nearly as much better as stats would make you think, Howard plays in a league with less good bigs, todays bigs don't want to be bigs they want to be like Garnett.

And we haven't even brought up other bigs like Moses, Gilmore. Gilmore was more at the tail end of his career then but was still in the league while much of this was ongoing.

 

[TJ]

Seriously was because I didn't think anyone DIDN'T know I am a Laker fan.

Many of us try to repress this knowledge because aside from you and BIM being dirty, disgusting Laker fans, you both are good people.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[D-Dogg]

The 3rd was Fisher inexplicably lofting a floater 5 on 3 that Wade swatted on the play where LeBron got hurt.

If you've watched Fisher as much as I have, that stupid layup was not inexplicable. It was almost a certainty and par for the course. I love Fish, but he is infamous for stupid layup attempts which miss 90% of the time. I've always said that I think Fish is a better at shooting threes than making layups, and it turns out I wasn't far off. I just checked out his stats from all positions like I've been doing recently for the other players, and he shoots 39% from three, 42% at the rim. That rim % is plain AWFUL.

 

[D-Dogg]

Many of us try to repress this knowledge because aside from you and BIM being dirty, disgusting Laker fans, you both are good people.

:jumping_smilie:

 

[D-Dogg]

I think young Manu was a better defender than Harden is though.

There were 4 dagger plays in last nights game IMO. The first was Cole's 3 to end the first quarter that started the comeback. The 2nd was Harden blowing the dunk/layup after the steal. The 3rd was Fisher inexplicably lofting a floater 5 on 3 that Wade swatted on the play where LeBron got hurt. The last was LeBron's 3 to put them up 3.

Wade's up and under difficult layup with 1:30 to go or so to put them back up 4 was huge, too. TOUGH shot, and really changed the game from a tight game to a chase for OKC. It slowed the momentum OKC had built.

The two biggest were LeBron's 3 and Harden's blown layup...that would have put OKC up two with momentum and instead they got down two and deflated.

 

[D-Dogg]

The one thing that I do love watching LeBron do is block shots, because he's sick at that especially when trailing, but I don't recall any of that in the game last night.

And to further that, I actually find him exciting on defense overall, not on offense. His offense is boring, but defensively he's fun to watch. He was stuck on Gasol during the regular season, and he was fronting the hell out of him and totally frustrated Pau. His defense on the front was amazing, he was working his ass off and I was excited despite my hate for him and that he was beasting on D on the Lakers.

So, I find his O boring and his D to be exciting. But I don't think that's what people who gush about him enjoy.

BTW, this isn't a new thing. I felt the same back in '07 when he was in the finals vs. the Spurs:

It's not the spurs alone. The Cavs are boring too. Low scoring brutal basketball in the ECF and they come out of it.

LeBron isn't nearly exciting enough on a consistent basis to make me say...wow, I should watch him. Save the one amazing 4th and double OT, he's been fairly boring in the playoffs too.

Crappy Cavs plodding team with one superstar playing patsy to plodding and boring dynasty with Duncan and Mr. Longoria.

Bo-ring.

He's joined an exciting player in Wade, has a much better team around him now, but my overall assesment remains the same. Really has nothing to do with hate. I hate him for all kinds of other reasons, but there are players I hate that I love to watch play. He's not one of them.

 

[slinslin]

Garnett and Dirk aren't even 5's, Garnett was a 3 much of his career and is now moving inside more as he got older. Dirk is not a 5.

Howard's game is all power, size and dunking the ball. he's a better rebounder than Dawkins was but the offense is the exact same game. I think he's better than Dawkins, he has a better work ethic, Dawkins was one of those guys who didn't seem to care as long as he made some money and got women.

But Dawkins in todays game would be a much better player because there just aren't that many guys his size who can move like he could. I'm not clear on how someone who was about 5 when Dawkins last played a healthy NBA season(he hung on for several years with back problems and retired in 89) is such an expert on players of that era? Dawkins like Howard was straight out of HS, he was on a team that had Dr J and McGinnis and Cheeks etc so he was never a star but he had years of 14+ 7-8 RPG. his best year was a hair under 15 PPG 9 RPG 61% from the floor and 72% from the line. He was a good player whose image overshadowed his actual game. Again, Howard is better but not nearly as much better as stats would make you think, Howard plays in a league with less good bigs, todays bigs don't want to be bigs they want to be like Garnett.

And we haven't even brought up other bigs like Moses, Gilmore. Gilmore was more at the tail end of his career then but was still in the league while much of this was ongoing.

Garnett was NEVER a 3 and he is bigger than Olajuwon and Ewing easily. He is just a better big man than Ewing that is the bottom line. Just like Duncan is better than Olajuwon.

Your opinion here is a joke man, Howard would pull down around 20rpg in the 80s easily. Just the pace alone would incredibly inflate his stats.

Dawkins can't be compared to Howard. It is absolutely ridiculous and beyond stupid to make that comparison.

 

[Russ Smith]

Wade's up and under difficult layup with 1:30 to go or so to put them back up 4 was huge, too. TOUGH shot, and really changed the game from a tight game to a chase for OKC. It slowed the momentum OKC had built.

The two biggest were LeBron's 3 and Harden's blown layup...that would have put OKC up two with momentum and instead they got down two and deflated.

That's what made the mistake by Fisher so huge the score was tied and LeBron was hurt. Instead of getting an open jumper or layup, he takes a runner that gets blocked and LeBron scores. Instead of up 2, they're down 2, 4 point swing.

 

[Joe Mama]

NONE of that is LeBron's game. I concede his stats, his ability and his greatness. He's worthy of comparison to the greats, no doubt. I simply don't enjoy the style he plays with. Others do. I find him boring. There's nothing wrong with that, but when I see he's got 6 assists in the first half and I can't remember one that stands out, nor any of his shots because they were all easy layups, I'm not ecstatic to watch him. The fact he gets easy layups and doesn't need to switch hands or whatever is testament to how good he is, but big whoop. Wade made 4 times the exciting plays as LeBron in that game, including one up and under layup that was ridiculous. I like that too.

The one thing that I do love watching LeBron do is block shots, because he's sick at that especially when trailing, but I don't recall any of that in the game last night.

I think it would really surprise people to see some of the "assists" with which NBA players are credited. My coworker was sending me play after play earlier in the playoffs where we couldn't figure out how they gave someone an assist. There was a Boston game where Rondo picked up a couple that had no business being called assists. The NBA stat keepers are very liberal with assists.

I'm not a great fan of either Kobe Bryant nor Lebron James. However I find myself admiring Kobe Bryant's footwork and shooting ability more and more even though I question his shot selection as much as the next guy. LeBron James is ridiculously good, but I have trouble appreciating his scoring abilities, like I do Bryant's. Maybe it's because I think he gets away with traveling (and obvious traveling) more than any player since Michael Jordan. And I'm not one of these people who thinks that everything is a travel. I'm not a big fan of the jump stop, but it is a legal basketball move... just not the way James does it most of the time. Late in the fourth quarter of last night's game he made a spin move to a pass that was an inexcusably missed travel. It just happens too often with him and gives him an incredible advantage.

Joe

 

[DWKB]

1:15 left in the game with the ball and down by three and James is basically out for the remainder of the time left. OKC had plenty of time and opportunity to tie the game or more.

 

[Russ Smith]

Garnett was NEVER a 3 and he is bigger than Olajuwon and Ewing easily. He is just a better big man than Ewing that is the bottom line. Just like Duncan is better than Olajuwon.

Your opinion here is a joke man, Howard would pull down around 20rpg in the 80s easily. Just the pace alone would incredibly inflate his stats.

Dawkins can't be compared to Howard. It is absolutely ridiculous and beyond stupid to make that comparison.

Garnett guarded the 3 often when he was in Minnesota. Earlier in this thead you attempted to claim a players position was defined by the position he guards(Magic wasn't a PG because he didn't guard PG's) so I simply assumed that you would consider Garnett to have played quite a bit of 3 in his career since he often guarded 3's. He was basically a 4 and almost never a 5. In fact young Garnett insisted he didn't want to be a 5. I remember a movie on HBO or something about Earl Manigault where Garnett played Wilt Chamberlain. He openly said that's the closest you'll ever see me to playing C.


As for a joke, in 1984-85 Moses Malone led the NBA in rebounding at 13.1, he was one of the dominant rebounders of his era, especially the offensive glass. you just asserted that Howard would have "easily" pulled down around 20 RPG if he'd been in the NBA at that time. So he would have been more than 50% better than the next best rebounder in the NBA at that time. You're asserting that Dwight Howard is that much better a rebounder than Malone was?

And again, I said they were similar style players, howard is clearly better but not nearly as much better as stats would lead you to believe. Back then they didn't just let a guy like Howard catch the ball 3 feet from the rim and dunk it. They denied him position, doubled him, and fouled him if he got the ball.

You can't compare stats across eras, it doesn't work, it's why not having seen games played puts you at a disadvantage in trying to compare players across eras.

You won't see me talking about Wilt or Jim Brown or Mickey mantle for a very godo reason, I never saw any of them actually play live.

 

[Russ Smith]

1:15 left in the game with the ball and down by three and James is basically out for the remainder of the time left. OKC had plenty of time and opportunity to tie the game or more.

Yep and unfortunately Westbrook had a couple of pivotal mistakes there a turnover and the foul.

Pretty remarkable game by Chalmers, I would hope that Brooks learned putting Durant on him is a mistake.

 

[slinslin]

Yes Dwight Howard is a MUCH better rebounder than Malone was.

He pulled down 14.5 per game this season alone. Are you trolling or something?

Moses Malone lead the NBA with 13.1 in 85 at a pace of 100.8 in 37.4mpg. Malone pullled down 24% of all available defensive rebounds while on the floor.
Dwight Howard lead the NBA with 14.5 in 2012 at a pace of just 89.0 in 38mpg. Howard pulled down 33% of all available defensive rebounds while on the floor.

So Howard in the same minutes on a team that averages more than 10 posessions LESS per game still pulled down almost 1.5 rpg more per game than Malone against much more athletic and stronger opponents.

You must be delusional.

Your Dawkins comparisons is incredibly stupid.l

Dwight Howard lead the NBA in Defensive Win Shares 4 times already and 3 times in Defensive Rating, twice lead the NBA in DRB%, once in TRB%, 4 times in rebounding, twice in block, 4x DPOY, 4 times all defensive first team, 1 all defensive 2nd team, 5 all nba first teams, 29th on career MVP shares list.

Dawkins never made any all-nba team, Dawkins never got a single MVP vote,