The Official 2012 NBA Finals Thread: MIA vs. OKC

[Phrazbit]

I think slinslin is under the impression that the human race has evolved dramatically over the last 20 years.

 

[slinslin]

I've stayed out of this argument but this comment goes straight to the slinslin Hall of Fame. We're clearly going to need a better filing system to keep track of all these gems.

Steve

Yeah dude, how many players have won 3 or more DPOY and lead the league 4 straight years in DWS??

If you want to dispute the fact that Howard is among the best defensive players of all time this thread discussion has hit a new low which was hardly possible after Russ compared Howard to Dawkins and claimed that Howard would not be successful in the 80s.

 

[Phrazbit]

Yeah dude, how many players have won 3 or more DPOY? If you want to dispute the fact that Howard is among the best defensive players of all time this thread discussion has hit a new low which was hardly possible after Russ compared Howard to Dawkins and claimed that Howard would not be successful in the 80s.

I dont think your claim that Magic Johnson was not a point guard can be topped.

And if Howard had some better competition from big men for his DPOY awards then he wouldnt have any. Hakeem would win one every year if he was playing right now, purely as a defender Ben Wallace was vastly superior to Howard.

Saying Howard is the greatest defensive big of his generation is like saying Steve Nash is the best white point guard from Canada.

 

[slinslin]

I dont think your claim that Magic Johnson was not a point guard can be topped.

And if Howard had some better competition from big men for his DPOY awards then he wouldnt have any. Hakeem would win one every year if he was playing right now, purely as a defender Ben Wallace was vastly superior to Howard.

Saying Howard is the greatest defensive big of his generation is like saying Steve Nash is the best white point guard from Canada.

Puhlease Howards competition Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett are twice the defenders any other big men was during Hakeems era.

Hakeem lead the league in DWS 4 times, like Howard, has 2 DPOY while Howard has 3. Of course Howard has played like half his career only.

Disputing that Howard is among the all time best defenders is just massive ********.

 

[Phrazbit]

Puhlease Howards competition Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett are twice the defenders any other big men was during Hakeems era.

Duncan and Garnett have been well past their primes while Howard has won his awards.

 

[Phrazbit]

And LOOOL at Duncan and Garnett being "twice the defenders" of a guy like Mutombo.

 

[slinslin]

Duncan and Garnett have been well past their primes while Howard has won his awards.

Yeah right Garnett won DPOY in 2008, Howard in 2009, 2010 and 2011.

 

[slinslin]

And LOOOL at Duncan and Garnett being "twice the defenders" of a guy like Mutombo.

Mutombo NEVER lead the NBA in defensive win shares, NEVER.

He also made just 3 NBA defensive first teams and 3 second teams.

Duncan made 7 nba defensive first teams, 5 defensive second teams and lead the NBA in DWS 5 times.

Garnett made 9 nba defensive first teams and 3 defensive second teams.

The highest DWS Mutombo reached was 6.6.

Also Mutombo entered the league in 1991, Olajuwon in 1984.

Duncan topped 6.6 7times, Garnett topped it once with a godly 8.0

 

[Phrazbit]

Mutombo NEVER lead the NBA in defensive win shares, NEVER.

Yeah, he is just a 4 time defensive player of the year award winner. He stunk.

And are you really going to argue that Garnett is NOT well past his prime? Really? Well, consider earlier you asserted that Garnett has "never" played the 3... I can assume you know nothing about Garnett, it shouldnt be surprising that you still consider him in his prime.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yeah dude, how many players have won 3 or more DPOY and lead the league 4 straight years in DWS??

If you want to dispute the fact that Howard is among the best defensive players of all time this thread discussion has hit a new low which was hardly possible after Russ compared Howard to Dawkins and claimed that Howard would not be successful in the 80s.

When you said he was "one of the all time greatest defenders in the NBA" did you simply mean he was one of the top 100? I took your comment to suggest you'd consider an argument that he was the best defensive player ever to be a reasonable position. If that's so, I find your statement to be reflective of your overall unfamiliarity with the actual game of basketball. You're pretty good with the numbers but I think, at some point, you actually need to watch this game.

BTW, I put very little stock in the various awards - many of them have little basis in reality. I've watched Howard, Garnett and Duncan all play and none of them are anywhere near the defensive force that Mutombo was.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

When you said he was "one of the all time greatest defenders in the NBA" did you simply mean he was one of the top 100? I took your comment to suggest you'd consider an argument that he was the best defensive player ever to be a reasonable position. If that's so, I find your statement to be reflective of your overall unfamiliarity with the actual game of basketball. You're pretty good with the numbers but I think, at some point, you actually need to watch this game.

BTW, I put very little stock in the various awards - many of them have little basis in reality. I've watched Howard, Garnett and Duncan all play and none of them are anywhere near the defensive force that Mutombo was.

Steve

Exactly. According to "defensive win shares" Karl Malone is the 5th greatest defensive player in NBA history. I can safely throw that statistic in the garbage.

 

[slinslin]

Yeah, he is just a 4 time defensive player of the year award winner. He stunk.

And are you really going to argue that Garnett is NOT well past his prime? Really? Well, consider earlier you asserted that Garnett has "never" played the 3... I can assume you know nothing about Garnett, it shouldnt be surprising that you still consider him in his prime.

Garnett was 32 when Howard won his first and 33 and the best player on a finals team when Howard won his 2nd.
Not to mention a year before at 31 Garnett won the award himself and was the best player on a NBA championship team.

Yeah I think it is a bit of a stretch to say Garnett was over the hill when Howard won it.

 

[slinslin]

When you said he was "one of the all time greatest defenders in the NBA" did you simply mean he was one of the top 100? I took your comment to suggest you'd consider an argument that he was the best defensive player ever to be a reasonable position. If that's so, I find your statement to be reflective of your overall unfamiliarity with the actual game of basketball. You're pretty good with the numbers but I think, at some point, you actually need to watch this game.

BTW, I put very little stock in the various awards - many of them have little basis in reality. I've watched Howard, Garnett and Duncan all play and none of them are anywhere near the defensive force that Mutombo was.

Steve

And I also watched all of them and say that all of them were bigger defensive forces than what Mutombo was except they did not have that catchy finger waving trademark.

Top 100? Howard is easily in the top 20 defenders of all time already.

 

[Phrazbit]

Garnett was 32 when Howard won his first and 33 and the best player on a finals team when Howard won his 2nd.
Not to mention a year before at 31 Garnett won the award himself and was the best player on a NBA championship team.

Yeah I think it is a bit of a stretch to say Garnett was over the hill when Howard won it.

I said he was past his prime, and he clearly was. While still effective Garnett was nothing like the player he had been half a decade earlier.

And the year you list Garnett as the best player on a finals team... he averaged 14-7. If that is the competition you are putting forth for Howard then you're making my argument for me.

 

[slinslin]

Exactly. According to "defensive win shares" Karl Malone is the 5th greatest defensive player in NBA history. I can safely throw that statistic in the garbage.

Doubtful considering Karl Malone never lead the NBA in DWS.

You are looking at total numbers, of course Malone is up there he was a great player with a terrific long career. He is up there in most important stat totals.

 

[Phrazbit]

Doubtful considering Karl Malone never lead the NBA in DWS.

You are looking at total numbers, of course Malone is up there he was a great player with a terrific long career. He is up there in most important stat totals.

It lists him as being 2nd 3 times, he is shown in the top 10 in virtually every year of his career.

I dont even know why I am debating this... you just claimed Mutombo, literally one of the best defenders of all time, was basically a bum with a finger wag...

 

[Suns_fan69]

Slin, without looking it up, can you tell us what defensive win shares actually means? You seem to use it as the de-facto method of ranking a player's abilities while refuting just about everything else.

 

[sunsfan88]

Seriously was because I didn't think anyone DIDN'T know I am a Laker fan.

Oh well it was because I don't really see your posts in any of the other active threads. But I can see you have been here a lot longer than me so

 

[Phrazbit]

Slin, without looking it up, can you tell us what defensive win shares actually means? You seem to use it as the de-facto method of ranking a player's abilities while refuting just about everything else.

The way the stat works weighs a teams talent so heavily it cannot be used to measure individual players against each-other accurately. If a guy is stuck on trash teams, like Mutombo was, he will not accumulate wins and will inherently not stand out in a stat which primarily favors team victories.

 

[Russ Smith]

wow man...

Dawkins was nothing like Howard. Just like you just pointed out. Dawkins was simply not nearly as good a player as Howard no matter how much alike you think his body and athletcisim was.




That is just a stupid argument. Howard is one of the all time greatest defenders in the NBA and you come up with Dawkins to try and make an argument that Howard would be a role player in the 80s it is astonishing.

And please the big man competition especially at center was probably the weakest it has ever been in the early 80s.

As elindholm already pointed out some of those guys who were very good players at the position back then would have no chance making modern NBA rosters.

One of the alltime greatest defenders in the NBA? Let me guess he's better than Bill Russell was right?

Where did I say Howard would be a role player, don't invent statements and then ask me to defend them. I said Dawkins would be a better player in todays NBA than he was in his NBA, and HOward wouldn't be as good in Dawkins' NBA as he is now. that is NOT calling him a role player. Man I love a good debate but don't make up stuff and then tell me it's nonsense when I never said it.

If the bigman competition is so much better now then why does virtually every NBA GM lament the lack of quality bigs today? Are they all stupid? Why did Jeremy Tyler on live tv in the Bay Area last night say that the primary reason he skipped his senior year of HS was that he had agents telling him the NBA is desperate for bigs and he'd get there earlier by skipping his senior year.

Dawkins played the game exactly like Howard does, most of his buckets were within 3 feet, dunks, power moves. He was actually a much better shooter than howard is, career 69% from the FT line, Howards' career BEST is 67, he's a .588 shooter careerwise and his % is going DOWN. Howard was better at it, my guess is he's 2-3 inches taller than Dawkins was, and he gets to play against a bunch of smaller guys playing the 5 because there are so few true 5's in the NBA today. Howard shoots a high % from the field because almost all of his buckets are dunks, layups or putbacks.

Again, he's better than Dawkins ever was but not nearly by as big a margin as you're suggesting. He has no clue how to play basketball he's just a big strong guy who dunks the ball. He is a very good defender largely because he intimidates people, there was the famous study a couple of years ago that pointed out nearly a quarter of Howard's "blocks" resulted in points because he gets called for goaltending so much, or swats the ball out of bounds giving the team the ball again. But he changes a lot of shots and that's why he is good.

He's a great player but when you start suggesting he'd easily put up 20 RPG in the 80's you're just pulling things out of thin air.

 

[Russ Smith]

Yeah dude, how many players have won 3 or more DPOY and lead the league 4 straight years in DWS??

If you want to dispute the fact that Howard is among the best defensive players of all time this thread discussion has hit a new low which was hardly possible after Russ compared Howard to Dawkins and claimed that Howard would not be successful in the 80s.

And had I actually said that you'd have a point but we both know that's not what I said.

 

[Russ Smith]

Mutombo NEVER lead the NBA in defensive win shares, NEVER.

He also made just 3 NBA defensive first teams and 3 second teams.

Duncan made 7 nba defensive first teams, 5 defensive second teams and lead the NBA in DWS 5 times.

Garnett made 9 nba defensive first teams and 3 defensive second teams.

The highest DWS Mutombo reached was 6.6.

Also Mutombo entered the league in 1991, Olajuwon in 1984.

Duncan topped 6.6 7times, Garnett topped it once with a godly 8.0

That's because there were other great defensive bigs in the NBA when he played.

Serge Ibaka just led the NBA in blocked shots, he wouldn't have started for the Celtics in the 80s, or the Lakers, or the 76ers.

 

[Russ Smith]

Quoting Bill Simmons on Dwight Howard

"Just so we're clear, the best six centers of all time were Bill Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaq and Moses in that order (in my opinion). They won a combined 26 of the past 54 titles. From there, it drops a level to David Robinson (2 titles), Bill Walton (2 titles), Willis Reed (2 titles), Dave Cowens (2 titles) and George Mikan (5 titles), and then it drops another level to Patrick Ewing (0 titles), Wes Unseld (1 title), Nate Thurmond (0 titles) and Robert Parish (4 titles).1 What happens over the next few years of Howard's career will determine where he ranks historically. He will never approach Russell, Kareem or Wilt. That Hakeem/Shaq/Moses group is within reach, although Robinson's spot is probably more realistic.

And you know what? That makes sense. Robinson is probably our best comparison for Howard: a physical specimen and sabermetric wet dream who never made you say, "If my life depended on one game, I'd want HIM on my team." Of course, Robinson battled Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq and Dikembe Mutombo during his prime; Howard is battling the Gasols, Nene, Andrew Bynum and Tyson Chandler. You could unearth 50 different ways to prove that, statistically, Dwight Howard is better offensively and defensively than every other current center. (Like clockwork: 23 points, 14 rebounds, 2.4 blocks, 60 percent shooting and a quantifiable effect on opposing field goal percentage night after night after night.) He's the most reliable star since Karl Malone and the most durable center since Wilt, playing in 614 of a possible 621 games (including playoffs) in seven Orlando seasons."

 

[Cheesebeef]

DRob over Nowitzki or Duncan is a joke. Both Nowitzki and Garnett lead teams to championships and have more just accomplished more.

well, you're response right off the bat is a joke, considering I never said drob over Duncan. And Garnett led teams to championship? That's a joke. He was the league biggest failure in the playoffs until he got paired with TWO hall of famers and Rondo. Robinson NEVER played with ANYONE like that in his prime. Hell, he never played with All-Stars save Rodman who was alresdy wayyyyyy out to lunch by then.

Robinson was not even close to a ring before he turned 2nd fiddle to Duncan.

He was just as close as KG was before KG hit the jackpot in Boston. KG's teams were constant playoff failures, whereas Robinsons teams at least could win in the playoffs.

And what case could be made for Olajuwon over Duncan? He is close in the overall user ranking. Duncan ranks #7 and Olajuwon #9.

do you even read your own stats before you make your arguments? Down below YOU rank Duncan at 8, not 7.

But Hakeem has no real solid argument over Duncan. Duncan was just way too good, way too consistent, and lots of team success with him being the main player.

Hakeem also NEVER played with a Robinson, Parker or Ginobli. And he pretty much singlehandedly won TWO titles... and was a multiple finals MVP, won a regular season MVP, got to THREE Finals, 4 Conference Finals... all with very little supporting cast.

Duncan #8

LOL... again, you can't even get YOUR OWN "stats" right. Is he 7 or 8 slin? And using proof of some random list you found on the internet as truth is ridiculous. For all i know, you're clueless ass made that list.

 

[D-Dogg]

Oh well it was because I don't really see your posts in any of the other active threads. But I can see you have been here a lot longer than me so

It's the Cardinals part of the board where I hang out. But I like you Suns fans too.