The Official 2012 NBA Finals Thread: MIA vs. OKC

[TJ]

Check them fourth quarter stats and get back to me vato,

Just did

Including Game 1, Durant is shooting 25% from the field in the 4th. In the final 5 minutes of games, he is shooting a woeful 16.7%. He is missing free throws on a regular basis that he would normally make in those "clutch" situations. He is getting pushed around on the defensive end, largely because of his lack of strength and physicality. Because of this, he has been picking up cheap fouls. Durant had to be taken off LeBron defensively because he was getting worn like a cheap suit.

Aside from Game 1, Durant has been far from productive in the waning minutes of games, while LeBron has done a total 180 from last season's Finals.

In addition, last night, Durant had 2 rebounds. Game 2 he had 3 rebounds. Game 3 he had a more respectable 6, but for a guy with the longest arms on the floor, he should be grabbing a lot more.

I think those people who decided to download "Doodle Jump" instead of watching his shots in this series have made a wise investment. Right now, that's not messed up

 

[elindholm]

In many sports I completely agree with the argument todays guys are better, basketball is not one of those sports. They're more athletic, but not better.

I think we're talking about different things. I agree that the best players of previous eras are probably comparable to the best players of today. But the depth of talent in the NBA is certainly greater today. Not star-level talent, just good-player talent. There are 30 teams, and if you take the 6th-7th-8th guys on each roster, of those 150 players, at least half of them would have been starting-caliber back in the 80s when the league had only 23 teams. The top five players in the league then were at the same level as today's top five, but the #100 player in the 1980s was nowhere near today's #100 player.

Darryl Dawkins was a very similar player in his day similar size and athletic ability, and Dawkins was a non starteer sideshow player most of his career.

During his nine-year peak of 1977-1986, Dawkins averaged about 27 minutes per game, but never better than 9 rebounds, and better than 7 only four times. I'll grant that I don't have a lot of specific memories of watching Dawkins play, but putting him in Howard's league seems fairly absurd. If you're 6' 11", 250, and on the court for more than half of each game, getting less than 7 rebounds speaks to some pretty serious fundamental weaknesses.

 

[slinslin]

Darryl Dawkins was a very similar player in his day similar size and athletic ability, and Dawkins was a non starteer sideshow player most of his career.

It is like saying , Kareem Abdul Jabbar?

Robin Lopez is a very similar player in his day similar size and athletic ability, and Lopez is a non starter sideshow player most of his career.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Please.... come on man.. ridiculous. Dwight Howard is MILES better than Dawkins, the though that Howard in the 80s would be another Dawkins and roleplayers is absolutely absurd.

The bigs of the this current era (Duncan, Garnett, Howard, Nowitzki, Shaq) would be elite players in any era but continue overrating the retired players.

Ewing, Olajuwon, Robinson, Mourning were no better than Duncan, Garnett, Howard, Nowitkzi.

Duncan > Olajuwon, Garnett > Robinson, Nowitzki, Howard > Ewing

Alonzo Mourning doesn't even belong in the conversation really.

I'll give you Howard being better than Ewing, but i think a very strong case could be made that The Dream was a better player than Duncan and I'd take D. Rob over Nowitizki/Garnett any day of the week.
Olajuwon

 

[D-Dogg]

I think those people who decided to download "Doodle Jump" instead of watching his shots in this series have made a wise investment. Right now, that's not messed up

I super love KD, but that is HILARIOUS!!

If you watch closely, Miami is really going after him when they are on offense. They take every opportunity to bump and shove him when running through. Battier is giving him off ball shoves in the back all game long, they are creating as much contact as they possibly can with him without getting called, a ton of it away from the ball. They are wearing him down, and it is working. Nothing wrong with it, either. Very smart.

 

[D-Dogg]

I'll give you Howard being better than Ewing, but i think a very strong case could be made that The Dream was a better player than Duncan and I'd take D. Rob over Nowitizki/Garnett any day of the week.
Olajuwon

I would take Hakeem over all those guys. Vastly underrated. His game fell off FAST though once it went. He went from great to really good over a long period, then from really good to crap in a hurry.

 

[D-Dogg]

Yep and unfortunately Westbrook had a couple of pivotal mistakes there a turnover and the foul.

Pretty remarkable game by Chalmers, I would hope that Brooks learned putting Durant on him is a mistake.

Westbrook also made a huge mental error when he had LeBron on him, gimpy and clearly favoring his leg, and he shoots a pullup offbalance J instead of going for the blowby and probably getting fouled. I was shocked he didn't attack. It isn't often you get a guy like LeBron hobbled and guarding you when you are quick as lightning...you have to take that advantage especially in a tight game late.

 

[Russ Smith]

Yes Dwight Howard is a MUCH better rebounder than Malone was.

He pulled down 14.5 per game this season alone. Are you trolling or something?

Moses Malone lead the NBA with 13.1 in 85 at a pace of 100.8 in 37.4mpg. Malone pullled down 24% of all available defensive rebounds while on the floor.
Dwight Howard lead the NBA with 14.5 in 2012 at a pace of just 89.0 in 38mpg. Howard pulled down 33% of all available defensive rebounds while on the floor.

So Howard in the same minutes on a team that averages more than 10 posessions LESS per game still pulled down almost 1.5 rpg more per game than Malone against much more athletic and stronger opponents.

You must be delusional.

Your Dawkins comparisons is incredibly stupid.l

Dwight Howard lead the NBA in Defensive Win Shares 4 times already and 3 times in Defensive Rating, twice lead the NBA in DRB%, once in TRB%, 4 times in rebounding, twice in block, 4x DPOY, 4 times all defensive first team, 1 all defensive 2nd team, 5 all nba first teams, 29th on career MVP shares list.

Dawkins never made any all-nba team, Dawkins never got a single MVP vote,

and Dwight Howard is competing with exactly who for those rebounds at the 4 and 5? He's not competing with Malone, Parish, McHale, etc.

You won't find a bigger Kevin Love fan than me but do I believe Love could have averaged 15 RPG in the 80s the answer is no way. Not to mention that your're making the HUGE assumption that stats are directly comparable. That a tip that today is scored a rebound(often) was back then, it often wasn't.

Moses Malone would be a premiere rebounder in ANY era.

By your own numbers we have a 9% edge in avalable rebounds to Howard, yet you somehow assert he'd get 50% more rebounds than Malone did?

At the age of 23 Howard pulled down 13.9 TRB, Malone pulled down 17.6 at the same age.

You also conveniently ignored offensive rebounding. Dwight Howards career best total rebound % is 22, he did that at the age of 24, Moses Malone had 4 full seasons where he topped that, 3 in a row. he had a 5th but he only played 11 games so I won't count that one.

Malone's career mark in the NBA was 19.8, howard's is 21, and Howard hasn't seen the downside of his career yet, Malone played until he was 39 years old.

For the Millionth time I didn't say Dawkins was as good as Howard, I said he's a similar type of player and in that era, that type of player couldn't be as dominant. You had to actually be able to do more than just dunk the ball to excel, it's why Dawkins(and his lack of work ethic) was never a star, he had no game outside of a few feet. they actually called 3 seconds back then, you couldn't just sit in the lane.

Dawkins barely played when he came into the league largely because they had Caldwell Jones, Harvey Catchings and McGinnis all in their prime on the same team, that and that guys that age were very rare in the NBA and NBA coaches didn't know what to do with them, they didn't play them very much. The one exception was Malone and that's because he started out in the ABA.

Again your knowledge of an era you never saw is remarkable.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think we're talking about different things. I agree that the best players of previous eras are probably comparable to the best players of today. But the depth of talent in the NBA is certainly greater today. Not star-level talent, just good-player talent. There are 30 teams, and if you take the 6th-7th-8th guys on each roster, of those 150 players, at least half of them would have been starting-caliber back in the 80s when the league had only 23 teams. The top five players in the league then were at the same level as today's top five, but the #100 player in the 1980s was nowhere near today's #100 player.



During his nine-year peak of 1977-1986, Dawkins averaged about 27 minutes per game, but never better than 9 rebounds, and better than 7 only four times. I'll grant that I don't have a lot of specific memories of watching Dawkins play, but putting him in Howard's league seems fairly absurd. If you're 6' 11", 250, and on the court for more than half of each game, getting less than 7 rebounds speaks to some pretty serious fundamental weaknesses.

And again I'm not saying he was as good as Howard is, just a very similar style player. The league was different then, there were VERY few players who did nothing but score within 2 feet of the rim back then. Moses Malone was one of them and frankly his footwork was 100 times better than howards he actually had up fakes and drop steps and reverse pivots he didn't just drop his shoulder and knock the defender back, although he was certainly capable of doing that if necessary.

Dawkins was a very flawed player because the game wasn't all that important to him, but he'd have been a better player in todays game IMO because there just aren't that many guys his size with his athletic ability. DeAndre Jordan is a good comparison now to Dawkins a freak athlete with no clue what he's doing and who doesn't play hard or seem to take the game all that seriously. Jeremy Tyler is a similar kid and neither one of them are as talented as Dawkins was when he entered the NBA(athletically). He was an absolute manchild.

 

[Russ Smith]

It is like saying , Kareem Abdul Jabbar?

Robin Lopez is a very similar player in his day similar size and athletic ability, and Lopez is a non starter sideshow player most of his career.

No it isn't they don't play remotely the same. Lopez is a tall stiff, which I told people here when the Suns drafted him out of Stanford. Kareem was actually skilled he could make that skyhook over and over it was simply unguardable. If Lopez can't dunk the ball, he struggles to score. Kareem dominated college ball as Alcindor in an era where they passed a rule to outlaw the dunk just to try and make him less dominant.

That's a stupid comparison to use your posting style.

Dawkins actually played the game the exact same way howard does, dunks and power moves were his entire game.

 

[desertdawg]

Many of us try to repress this knowledge because aside from you and BIM being dirty, disgusting Laker fans, you both are good people.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I need to become more internet savvy, because if I could get this guy to roll across the screen and fall off, it would truly express how hard that made me laugh.

 

[Russ Smith]

I would take Hakeem over all those guys. Vastly underrated. His game fell off FAST though once it went. He went from great to really good over a long period, then from really good to crap in a hurry.

I've always had a theory on why that was true. I just always assumed Hakeem lied about his age so when he started downhill fast at the age of 33-34, I assume he was actually 3-4 years older. Even today one of the big issues with kids from Africa in college ball is making sure their ages are accurate because the records over there are far less reliable, especially when they know a kid might have a chance to make money playing basketball but is much more attractive to colleges as a 19 year old than a 22 year old.

 

[Russ Smith]

Westbrook also made a huge mental error when he had LeBron on him, gimpy and clearly favoring his leg, and he shoots a pullup offbalance J instead of going for the blowby and probably getting fouled. I was shocked he didn't attack. It isn't often you get a guy like LeBron hobbled and guarding you when you are quick as lightning...you have to take that advantage especially in a tight game late.

Yep, and the turnover was the same he had the corner turned but for some reason tried to cut it back and crossover and lost the dribble.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Battier is giving him off ball shoves in the back all game long, they are creating as much contact as they possibly can with him without getting called, a ton of it away from the ball. They are wearing him down, and it is working. Nothing wrong with it, either. Very smart.

Good call, it's pretty noticeable and throwing Durant off of his game. Not sure whether it's a combination of that and inexperience in the finals, but he just hasn't been himself.

I'd disagree with you regarding whether or not there is anything wrong with it. As a Laker fan, cheap tactics like that may be impressive, but as a neutral fan of the series, I find that crap to be shameful.

Having a scrub like Battier take away from one of the best offense weapons in the game by tripping him up, shoving him and pushing him is pretty pathetic, and reminds me of similar tactics pulled by many Lakers and Spurs throughout the years.

Sadly, it's a league where very few teams with thrive without underhanded and dirty tactics, flopping and diving in front of offensive players. You may call it "smart", but it is also boring and embarrassing basketball. Definitely the most disheartening aspect of the NBA.

 

[Russ Smith]

Good call, it's pretty noticeable and throwing Durant off of his game. Not sure whether it's a combination of that and inexperience in the finals, but he just hasn't been himself.

I'd disagree with you regarding whether or not there is anything wrong with it. As a Laker fan, cheap tactics like that may be impressive, but as a neutral fan of the series, I find that crap to be shameful.

Having a scrub like Battier take away from one of the best offense weapons in the game by tripping him up, shoving him and pushing him is pretty pathetic, and reminds me of similar tactics pulled by many Lakers and Spurs throughout the years.

Sadly, it's a league where very few teams with thrive without underhanded and dirty tactics, flopping and diving in front of offensive players. You may call it "smart", but it is also boring and embarrassing basketball. Definitely the most disheartening aspect of the NBA.

Battier did something last night to Westbrook that frankly ought to get him fined if the NBA reviews it. There was a play in the backcourt where he flopped, pulled Westbrook down on him and then when Westbrook tried to get back up, Battier "rolled over" on Westbrook's legs, twice, to keep him on the floor. It was very dangerous you can really hurt someone rolling up on their legs as they're trying to stand up. I was frankly surprised Westbrook didn't punch him in the face.

He also infuriated Westbrook later in the game by stick his foot between Westbrooks as he was going up for a shot. He does that alot, also likes to cover the shooters eyes very aggressively which makes some people flinch thinking they're going to get hit in the face.

had a huge play at the end though, him outfighting Durant for that jump was huge. But then outfighting would suggest Durant actually fought for the ball and he didn't.

 

[95pro]

Battier keeps backing into shooters too, after they release the ball and land he turn around toward the baskets and just keeps going right back into them

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Battier did something last night to Westbrook that frankly ought to get him fined if the NBA reviews it. There was a play in the backcourt where he flopped, pulled Westbrook down on him and then when Westbrook tried to get back up, Battier "rolled over" on Westbrook's legs, twice, to keep him on the floor. It was very dangerous you can really hurt someone rolling up on their legs as they're trying to stand up. I was frankly surprised Westbrook didn't punch him in the face.

He also infuriated Westbrook later in the game by stick his foot between Westbrooks as he was going up for a shot. He does that alot, also likes to cover the shooters eyes very aggressively which makes some people flinch thinking they're going to get hit in the face.

had a huge play at the end though, him outfighting Durant for that jump was huge. But then outfighting would suggest Durant actually fought for the ball and he didn't.

You see what I see. Clowns like Battier are undoubtedly effective, but ultimately make the game worse.

That "effort" by Durant was just pathetic on the jump...I was trying to think what the hell was going on in his head before/during the play. (As well as with Westbrook, obviously) Absolutely no reason with his height/length/jumping ability that Battier should have made a play on that ball. Completely inexplicable.

 

[95pro]

You see what I see. Clowns like Battier are undoubtedly effective, but ultimately make the game worse.

That "effort" by Durant was just pathetic on the jump...I was trying to think what the hell was going on in his head before/during the play. (As well as with Westbrook, obviously) Absolutely no reason with his height/length/jumping ability that Battier should have made a play on that ball. Completely inexplicable.

he just missed timed it and was caught flat footed. its wasnt a clean jump, and he probably didnt think it'd be coming his direction which is the wrong attitude at that moment.

 

[Russ Smith]

he just missed timed it and was caught flat footed. its wasnt a clean jump, and he probably didnt think it'd be coming his direction which is the wrong attitude at that moment.

He didn't move though was the problem he just tried to lean over.

My guess is that much like blocking out on FT's, guys who follow the letter of the rule usually get left in the dust. I'd bet if we look in slo mo that Battier moves before he's supposed to, and Durant doesn't.

But at that point in the game you have to be stronger, not long before that he one handed a rebound and Wade took it away from him and saved it to a teammate. There's a reason teams rarely win a title the first time they get to the finals, thye have to learn the hard way how hard it is to win one.

 

[Superbone]

No it isn't they don't play remotely the same. Lopez is a tall stiff, which I told people here when the Suns drafted him out of Stanford. Kareem was actually skilled he could make that skyhook over and over it was simply unguardable. If Lopez can't dunk the ball, he struggles to score. Kareem dominated college ball as Alcindor in an era where they passed a rule to outlaw the dunk just to try and make him less dominant.

So you're saying Lopez just needs to add a sky hook to his game and he'll become dominant like Jabbar?

 

[slinslin]

I'll give you Howard being better than Ewing, but i think a very strong case could be made that The Dream was a better player than Duncan and I'd take D. Rob over Nowitizki/Garnett any day of the week.
Olajuwon

DRob over Nowitzki or Duncan is a joke. Both Nowitzki and Garnett lead teams to championships and have more just accomplished more.

Robinson was not even close to a ring before he turned 2nd fiddle to Duncan.

And what case could be made for Olajuwon over Duncan? He is close in the overall user ranking. Duncan ranks #7 and Olajuwon #9. But Hakeem has no real solid argument over Duncan. Duncan was just way too good, way too consistent, and lots of team success with him being the main player.

Duncan #8
Garnett #13
Nowitzki #17
Howard #39

Olajuwon #9
David Robinson #21
Patrick Ewing #27
Mourning #48

(Howard is low on this ranking because it takes into account the full career achievements so obviously Howard is not there yet since he has his entire prime ahead of himself still)

 

[Mainstreet]

Battier did something last night to Westbrook that frankly ought to get him fined if the NBA reviews it. There was a play in the backcourt where he flopped, pulled Westbrook down on him and then when Westbrook tried to get back up, Battier "rolled over" on Westbrook's legs, twice, to keep him on the floor. It was very dangerous you can really hurt someone rolling up on their legs as they're trying to stand up. I was frankly surprised Westbrook didn't punch him in the face.

He also infuriated Westbrook later in the game by stick his foot between Westbrooks as he was going up for a shot. He does that alot, also likes to cover the shooters eyes very aggressively which makes some people flinch thinking they're going to get hit in the face.

had a huge play at the end though, him outfighting Durant for that jump was huge. But then outfighting would suggest Durant actually fought for the ball and he didn't.

The Bruce Bowen and Robert Horry type players live on and continue to be rewarded.

 

[slinslin]

No it isn't they don't play remotely the same. Lopez is a tall stiff, which I told people here when the Suns drafted him out of Stanford. Kareem was actually skilled he could make that skyhook over and over it was simply unguardable. If Lopez can't dunk the ball, he struggles to score. Kareem dominated college ball as Alcindor in an era where they passed a rule to outlaw the dunk just to try and make him less dominant.

That's a stupid comparison to use your posting style.

Dawkins actually played the game the exact same way howard does, dunks and power moves were his entire game.

wow man...

Dawkins was nothing like Howard. Just like you just pointed out. Dawkins was simply not nearly as good a player as Howard no matter how much alike you think his body and athletcisim was.

For the Millionth time I didn't say Dawkins was as good as Howard, I said he's a similar type of player and in that era, that type of player couldn't be as dominant. You had to actually be able to do more than just dunk the ball to excel, it's why Dawkins(and his lack of work ethic) was never a star, he had no game outside of a few feet. they actually called 3 seconds back then, you couldn't just sit in the lane.

That is just a stupid argument. Howard is one of the all time greatest defenders in the NBA and you come up with Dawkins to try and make an argument that Howard would be a role player in the 80s it is astonishing.

And please the big man competition especially at center was probably the weakest it has ever been in the early 80s.

As elindholm already pointed out some of those guys who were very good players at the position back then would have no chance making modern NBA rosters.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

i used to think that slinslin just never saw any games/footage older than 2005. now i'm convinced that he thinks reading box scores, studying metrics, and watching an occasional youtube highlight film constitutes "watching games."

 

[AzStevenCal]

wow man...

Dawkins was nothing like Howard. Just like you just pointed out. Dawkins was simply not nearly as good a player as Howard no matter how much alike you think his body and athletcisim was.




That is just a stupid argument. Howard is one of the all time greatest defenders in the NBA and you come up with Dawkins to try and make an argument that Howard would be a role player in the 80s it is astonishing.

And please the big man competition especially at center was probably the weakest it has ever been in the early 80s.

As elindholm already pointed out some of those guys who were very good players at the position back then would have no chance making modern NBA rosters.

I've stayed out of this argument but this comment goes straight to the slinslin Hall of Fame. We're clearly going to need a better filing system to keep track of all these gems.

Steve