Cheesy, if you think our draft from this past season sucks, you will never be pleased, even if Kenny King or Calvin Pace turn out to be the next Warren Sapp.
The Official "Sign Chidi Ahanatou Now" Thread
- Thread starter kerouac9
- Start date
Cheesy, if you think our draft from this past season sucks, you will never be pleased, even if Kenny King or Calvin Pace turn out to be the next Warren Sapp.
Cardiac
ASFN Icon
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2002
- Posts
- 12,084
- Reaction score
- 3,354
Originally posted by kerouac9
I think that it confuses the fans, too. I know it does me. When you sign players like Freddie Jones and Duane Starks, it looks like you're ready to start winning. When you pass on a player that could be the answer to your most glaring question (pass rush) for a couple developmental players/reaches in B. Johnson and C. Pace, it seems pretty obvious that there's a longer event horizon for winning.
Also, I really don't get why Mac and Graves are making it sound like the end of the world when KVB goes down. It almost makes it sound like the season is already over. Builds a lot of faith.
You shouldn't compare the F. Jones and Starks signings to picking up an average at best DE. This team did not have any young prospects on this team that had the potential of Jones and Starks. The CB position is very hard to fill and so the team goes after a quality proven player. This is called adding talent to the team and does not figure into the win now or building for the future categories.
There are so many layers to these decisions that it is impossible to put a simple label on them, ie.. Win Now or Build for the future.
Many posters on this thread would be lousy at Chess because they don't see the entire board or what moves will have what impact later in the match. For example, Pats trading for Washington is a good move for them. They want to run a 3-4 D but don't have a legitimate NT. They are playoff contenders and this move gives them a solid player this year to stabilize their D. They have accumalated extra picks for next year and will be able to draft a NT or two next year. So the Pats can make this trade for a one or two year fix. The Cards are not in this position so they don't try to scratch out a trade or pick up a player that fills a hole.
A common complaint amongst many of us is how we lose talent to other teams just as they start to become good to very good. A DE end that is still waiting for his phone to ring is not a long term solution, maybe not even a short term upgrade. If McGraves decides that our youngins at DE have potential then why lose one of these players for a one year patch job? If Moore, Wakefield, Quin?sp, D. Johnson and King don't have potential then yes the Cards should pick up a retread of the scrap heap, but at this point none of us on this board know enough to make this call or get our panties in a bunch if our advice isn't followed.
K9 - you say doom and gloom from the staff and some of us say concern for a player and depth on the team. Isn't it interesting how we all can project our basic feelings into a quote. I think this is why you are considered a dark sider and others are considered koolaiders. Not a shot at anyone but just psychology 101.
Good gravy.
I can't wait until some football is being played....
I can't wait until some football is being played....
Cbus cardsfan
Back to Back ASFN FFL Champion
- Joined
- May 14, 2002
- Posts
- 21,653
- Reaction score
- 8,073
I see nothing wrong with that philosophy.At least the Cards would have a philosophy.Look at what Baltimore did.Theycame out with a plan last year that they were going with the youngsters and trying to re-build themselves into a playoff team.It's done in baseball all the time.THe Cleveland Indians are doing it right now.My point is have some kind of plan.Either go for it or build.The Cards do neither.If they were going to go for a winning season this year they would have made it impossible for their FA targets to go elsewhere.We could have had Colvin,Holliday,Jackson,Boston, and Griese added to the team and evryone here would be very optimistic.Instead we sign two offensive veterans on their last legs and pair them with the youngest WR corp in NFL history and have not upgraded the weakest part of the defense in the pass rush.I would not be against letting Mccown start and see what he can do.Let the young guys play and see who can and who can't.Parcells will do that this year in Dallas.What' so wrong with it.After you find out who can play,then you can add the missing parts.But banking on veterans who have proven they aren't difference makers,like Blake and Chidi, is just treading water and guaranteeing a top 7 draft pick every year.
OP
OP
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
What are you talking about? Kyle Vanden Bosch is going on Injured Reserve. That opens up a roster spot for a player like Chidi Ahanotu. No "promising" young defensive ends need get cut, because Chidi wouldn't be taking up an occupied roster spot I don't know how many more ways that we can say this. On Friday, no one thought the Dennis Johnson had any potential and would be cut on the second round of cuts. Today, he has such upside that we can't sacrifice his roster spot for a player that can help us right now and is definately no worse than Fred Wakefield, who is the starter right now. How is this not a no-brainer? Alton Moore is lower on the depth chart than Dennis Johnson. What does that say about how the staff views his "potential"?
It would be huge to pick up an "average" LDE in Chidi, because Wakefield, in the eyes of (I'm sure) every football personnel director in the league, is a BELOW AVERAGE LDE. He wasn't going to be a starter on this team, and now he is. That's bad. Chidi was a starter for the Bills, and there's no reason to think that an average LDE wouldn't be an upgrade from a below average player, even if just on a rotational basis.
Will someone please tell me what the downside from this deal is? Was Dennis Johnson's production as a non-holdout rookie DE last year make you excited for Kenny King (a lower-round pick in a more shallow draft) to come in against players like Kyle Turley?
I'm glad that the decisions of late from the Cards personnel department have given you so much faith in them. As for me, it sure looks like they can choose LBs, but can't find a decent D-lineman with a map and a flashlight.
Northern Card
All Star
Well put, K-9... and just think, unlike some others - you managed to make your point without invective...
Cardiac
ASFN Icon
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2002
- Posts
- 12,084
- Reaction score
- 3,354
K9
As I said in my post that if Ahanotu is an upgrade and Moore, Johnson etc have no potential then we should get him.
The point is people are screaming this is a no brainer when all we have to go buy are some camp reports and 2 preseason games. Maybe you have an exceptional eye for talent and are dead on about the abilities of the current DE's on this team. I however will trust McGraves eye for talent more than yours. So I'm not going to start jumping up and down and screaming that the Cards front office is a bunch of idiots.
If the Cards pick up a vet DE then great, if they don't then I will trust the new regime's decision, at least through the 04 season.
I guess this is where I will be considered as being negative or insulting.
Knee jerk reactions are not how teams build a succesful franchise. As fans it is their right and tradition to behave this way. I for one try not to do this.
As I said in my post that if Ahanotu is an upgrade and Moore, Johnson etc have no potential then we should get him.
The point is people are screaming this is a no brainer when all we have to go buy are some camp reports and 2 preseason games. Maybe you have an exceptional eye for talent and are dead on about the abilities of the current DE's on this team. I however will trust McGraves eye for talent more than yours. So I'm not going to start jumping up and down and screaming that the Cards front office is a bunch of idiots.
If the Cards pick up a vet DE then great, if they don't then I will trust the new regime's decision, at least through the 04 season.
I guess this is where I will be considered as being negative or insulting.
Knee jerk reactions are not how teams build a succesful franchise. As fans it is their right and tradition to behave this way. I for one try not to do this.
OP
OP
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
Re: K9
Whoa, so you're saying that you'll trust the personnell department's decisions this year, even if the Cards go 0-16 in 2003, and then, if they Cards end up 8-8 or better in 2004, you'll think it's all worthwhile?
And you're fine with bringing in no one to take KVB's roster spot.
Am I right here? You don't want Chidi in here, even for a one-year, minimum-salary contract. I see. If I'm putting words in your mouth, tell me.
Whoa, so you're saying that you'll trust the personnell department's decisions this year, even if the Cards go 0-16 in 2003, and then, if they Cards end up 8-8 or better in 2004, you'll think it's all worthwhile?
And you're fine with bringing in no one to take KVB's roster spot.
Am I right here? You don't want Chidi in here, even for a one-year, minimum-salary contract. I see. If I'm putting words in your mouth, tell me.
Cardiac
ASFN Icon
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2002
- Posts
- 12,084
- Reaction score
- 3,354
Re: Re: K9
I'm trying to say, obviously with some difficulty, is that if McGraves decides to sign Chidi great. If they decided not to sign him then I'm fine with that.
You seem to make some leaps in logic to try and make your point. The Cards will not go 0-16 this year. Trading for Washington or picking up Chidi will not propell this team into the playoffs. Those are my leaps in logic.
The point is that you or I or anyone else on this board doesn't have the wealth of knowledge or info on this team to be right about some of these marginal player acquisitions.
I'm also getting worn out riding this roller coaster of emotions with some of the posters here.
Graves sucks one day and is then the man the next day. Or even Graves sucks, will always suck, owns the patent to sucking, has his own porn site on sucking, has found new ways to bring sucking to a recognized art form. I mean I like RG and all but even I won't give him so much credit to be that much of an expert on anything.
I'm trying to say, obviously with some difficulty, is that if McGraves decides to sign Chidi great. If they decided not to sign him then I'm fine with that.
You seem to make some leaps in logic to try and make your point. The Cards will not go 0-16 this year. Trading for Washington or picking up Chidi will not propell this team into the playoffs. Those are my leaps in logic.
The point is that you or I or anyone else on this board doesn't have the wealth of knowledge or info on this team to be right about some of these marginal player acquisitions.
I'm also getting worn out riding this roller coaster of emotions with some of the posters here.
Graves sucks one day and is then the man the next day. Or even Graves sucks, will always suck, owns the patent to sucking, has his own porn site on sucking, has found new ways to bring sucking to a recognized art form. I mean I like RG and all but even I won't give him so much credit to be that much of an expert on anything.
OP
OP
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
Re: Re: Re: K9
I'm sorry, I thought that when you said:
I assumed you meant it. Will you trust the regime's decision if the Cards go 6-10 and only generate 22 sacks? Are you really sold on this management team through 2004?
It seems to me like you're not going to form an opinion on this team and moves they should make until the Cards tell you what your opinion is going to be. If that's true, so be it, but saying "This team is fine until Graves makes a move or says something that shows that it's not" doesn't do a whole lot for generating interesting conversation or speculation. I targeted a player that has put up KVB-like production or better for years. Why we're not apparently making a move to aquire a player of this caliber is totally beyond me, especailly considering that we have space on the roster for one.
Are you really fine with this team the way it is, and don't want Graves to make moves that, albeit possibly minimally risky, could make this team better?
I've been very conservative in my criticism of Graves since coming back to the board. I'm still down on Boston and the Draft-day trade, and I'm happy with the signing of the draft picks in a reasonable amount of time. These aren't mutually-exclusive feelings. I am concerned about Graves saying that there aren't players as good or better than KVB out there, because that makes me think that, based on KVB's production, he isn't really looking very hard.
Originally posted by Cardiac
I'm trying to say, obviously with some difficulty, is that if McGraves decides to sign Chidi great. If they decided not to sign him then I'm fine with that.
You seem to make some leaps in logic to try and make your point. The Cards will not go 0-16 this year. Trading for Washington or picking up Chidi will not propell this team into the playoffs. Those are my leaps in logic.
The point is that you or I or anyone else on this board doesn't have the wealth of knowledge or info on this team to be right about some of these marginal player acquisitions.
I'm also getting worn out riding this roller coaster of emotions with some of the posters here.
Graves sucks one day and is then the man the next day. Or even Graves sucks, will always suck, owns the patent to sucking, has his own porn site on sucking, has found new ways to bring sucking to a recognized art form. I mean I like RG and all but even I won't give him so much credit to be that much of an expert on anything.
I'm sorry, I thought that when you said:
I assumed you meant it. Will you trust the regime's decision if the Cards go 6-10 and only generate 22 sacks? Are you really sold on this management team through 2004?
It seems to me like you're not going to form an opinion on this team and moves they should make until the Cards tell you what your opinion is going to be. If that's true, so be it, but saying "This team is fine until Graves makes a move or says something that shows that it's not" doesn't do a whole lot for generating interesting conversation or speculation. I targeted a player that has put up KVB-like production or better for years. Why we're not apparently making a move to aquire a player of this caliber is totally beyond me, especailly considering that we have space on the roster for one.
Are you really fine with this team the way it is, and don't want Graves to make moves that, albeit possibly minimally risky, could make this team better?
I've been very conservative in my criticism of Graves since coming back to the board. I'm still down on Boston and the Draft-day trade, and I'm happy with the signing of the draft picks in a reasonable amount of time. These aren't mutually-exclusive feelings. I am concerned about Graves saying that there aren't players as good or better than KVB out there, because that makes me think that, based on KVB's production, he isn't really looking very hard.
Cardiac
ASFN Icon
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2002
- Posts
- 12,084
- Reaction score
- 3,354
Okay, I think we are starting to understand each other's point a little bit better now.
If the Cards don't acquire any more players this year and they still finish at 6 wins or less then my opinion will depend on what we saw out of the players we did keep. If we see some real positives out of the DE's then yes I like the NON moves RG made this year.
I can also see where you would get the impression that my opinion is solely based on what McGraves does. I haven't been thrilled with everything the team has done and I give the Cards a B- on this offseason. I also try to keep an open mind and realize that just because we don't jump all over Chidi immediately this means RG is wrong and I am right. You can argue the point and state your opinion but too many people here all too often jump right to:
This team is awful and always will be.
McGraves is an idiot.
How could we possibly not make this much needed move for Chidi or Robinson or Washington or Wilkinson or........
This is what I'm referring to as knee jerk reactions. No decision is black and white. There are always short and long term ramifications to every decision. As fans we just don't have all of the info to realize what all of these are or could be.
If this team finishes in the top 20 in defense this year and the pass defense doesn't allow a QB to set up camp in the pocket then I will be encouraged and dare I say even happy with the progress of this team. I just don't think Chidi or Washington or .... would improve this team that much, if at all.
I also dread the thought of another year with teams ramming the ball down our throats and converting 3rd downs at will. I will be very dissapointed if King, Bryant, Bell and Pace don't make an impact this year. I also am not sold on Davis, Tanner, Dwyer, Moore, Johnson etc.
What I will do is let RG have more than 1 offseason before I grade his performance.
If the Cards don't acquire any more players this year and they still finish at 6 wins or less then my opinion will depend on what we saw out of the players we did keep. If we see some real positives out of the DE's then yes I like the NON moves RG made this year.
I can also see where you would get the impression that my opinion is solely based on what McGraves does. I haven't been thrilled with everything the team has done and I give the Cards a B- on this offseason. I also try to keep an open mind and realize that just because we don't jump all over Chidi immediately this means RG is wrong and I am right. You can argue the point and state your opinion but too many people here all too often jump right to:
This team is awful and always will be.
McGraves is an idiot.
How could we possibly not make this much needed move for Chidi or Robinson or Washington or Wilkinson or........
This is what I'm referring to as knee jerk reactions. No decision is black and white. There are always short and long term ramifications to every decision. As fans we just don't have all of the info to realize what all of these are or could be.
If this team finishes in the top 20 in defense this year and the pass defense doesn't allow a QB to set up camp in the pocket then I will be encouraged and dare I say even happy with the progress of this team. I just don't think Chidi or Washington or .... would improve this team that much, if at all.
I also dread the thought of another year with teams ramming the ball down our throats and converting 3rd downs at will. I will be very dissapointed if King, Bryant, Bell and Pace don't make an impact this year. I also am not sold on Davis, Tanner, Dwyer, Moore, Johnson etc.
What I will do is let RG have more than 1 offseason before I grade his performance.
OP
OP
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
Wow. You're a more patient man than I, Cardiac. 6 wins or less is unacceptable for any team in the NFL, in my opinion. Teams that win less than 7 games in a season should examine thier coaching staff and management, because in the age of parity, every team should be able to build a contender within 3 years. It's been five for the Cards, and they're no where close.
I don't want to wait another two years to see a team that might be able to win the Wild Card, if everything works out. I don't see why you'd sit on what you have when you can shore up with reserves without cutting anyone and only spending minimum salary, especially when you need to spend something like $4 mil to get to the league-mandated minimum salary limit. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
I don't want to wait another two years to see a team that might be able to win the Wild Card, if everything works out. I don't see why you'd sit on what you have when you can shore up with reserves without cutting anyone and only spending minimum salary, especially when you need to spend something like $4 mil to get to the league-mandated minimum salary limit. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Cardiac
ASFN Icon
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2002
- Posts
- 12,084
- Reaction score
- 3,354
If nothing else rooting for the Cards has taught me patience. I have been at this for over 30 years now.
I think we can agree that last years record and overall team effort was unacceptable. 5 wins is bad enough but even many of those were just plain ugly. Then throw in the routs to KC, 49ers and Donks and last year was maybe the worst ever in Cards history.
I realize that Mac has been around 3 + years now but I think the rebuilding process started again this year. Between Mike Bidwill and RG finally having a real say in matters it all starts now. Almost anytime a team gets rid of their starting QB of several years it signifies that the team is rebuilding.
This why I'm willing to give the team a "Mulligan" on this years record. If however they put this one out of bounds into the woods then the gloves come off for me as well and I will officially join the darkside.
I'm thinking, hoping, praying that the cap room will be spent on re-signing current players to long term contracts. As I posted on some thread today:
If this team ends up with more than $2 mil in cap space by seasons end I will start a thread about how bid an idiot I am and that Koolaide has been very very bad to me.
SECTION 11
vibraslap
I don't even know if spending $12M by November is even possible at this point. We'd have to lock up guys like Grammatica, Player, etc, in addition to Thompson, Shelton, Wilson et al.
Cardiac
ASFN Icon
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2002
- Posts
- 12,084
- Reaction score
- 3,354
Yep, this is me way out on a limb.
If RG does this the right way though and puts a good part of their extensions into this years cap it can be used up.
Then the great news is this team should be in fantastic cap shape for several years.
If they don't do this then I have to think that the new Sherrif in town doesn't have any bullets in his gun.
And of course the assumption is these guys are going to be falling all over themselves to sign extensions. I am not suggesting any of them want to leave AZ but rather, maybe they want to roll the dice and see what FA brings...Shelton, Thompson and Player in particular of those listed.
I wonder if there will be further perceptional damage in the eyes of players around the league if the Cards wander into the season with all this cash available??
OP
OP
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
Yes. If the Cards have to cut a $48,000 check (which is about the amount) to every player on the roster because they need to reach the spending limit, there will be stories on ESPN.com, NFL.com, CBSSportsline.com, and probably on the national radio and television shows, also. Someone will say, "If you thought the Bengals were inept, check out the Arizona Cardinals, they're giving money away!"
This franchise has been wallowing in neglected mediocrity for five years, but if this debacle is allowed to happen, we'll be a well-deserved laughingstock.
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2003
- Posts
- 92,697
- Reaction score
- 71,646
No are you kdding me? They all hate ESPN just like we do! The media hates us and playes know better that's why we got Colvin and Holliday when we offered them the bank. Oh, wait a second . . .
And that is my point. Graves needs to take risks...even if they become meaningless after one year. I mean, I didn't think potential free agents could get a worse impression of AZ but now, we literally could waltz into the season with a boatload of money. That simply won't go over well in my opinion.
Sometimes...it is ok to make a move just for the sake of making a move. Lets sop up some of that cap money and see if we can, in the process, unearth a player or 2. We could sign 4 guys to league minumum contracts and the Cards would still have something like $10 million to use. Does anyone think they are going to go out and sign 4 guys at cutdowns? I don't.
Somebody stick your head into Graves' office and make sure he is awake.
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2003
- Posts
- 92,697
- Reaction score
- 71,646
He has to be there first. Man - if we end up having to dole out the 4 mill to our guys - we are going to be the laughingstock of the league - oh wait, we already are. Yes things are changing here! They are worst than I can ever imagine. I have never seen us to be icked to finish DEAD LAST by everyone - sad to say I agreew ith them.
Then again, maybe the other players will say "Hey, if we were on the Cards team, we'd be getting a $48,000 bonus over and above our salary. That organization knows how to take care of their players".
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2003
- Posts
- 92,697
- Reaction score
- 71,646
are you really being serious here - so now we want guys who will want to be on this team because they want to play for a team that is penalized and will be forced to give it's players more money because they won't spend to the cap to be competitive? You know what kind of players you're talking about - Losers and scrubs.
Well gee Cheesy. According to you, that's all we have anyway so we'll be able to maintain the status quo. Good thought.
Cardiac
ASFN Icon
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2002
- Posts
- 12,084
- Reaction score
- 3,354
Dude, love your enthusiasm and optimism but, in a word NO.
For the type of talent we want to attract $48,000 is like $50 bucks to you and me. I would gladdly pay $50 bucks for the Cards to have a winning season and I'm sure any quality NFL player would give up $50,000 to do the same.
Just think of the Eagles organization when you see what the Cards are doing this year. Think of the quality players they let leave so they could keep their cap in line. Think about some of the FA 's they have signed. Sometimes big money spent and some times not. Think about their core players they have re-signed before they had to. They have the best record in the past 3 years and at this point the only blemish on their record is that they haven't been to the SB. How many of us would be thrilled with the Cards going to 2 straight NFC championship games. Hell I get wood thinking about the Cards in the playoffs.
I probably over shared on that one.
So once again I say this team will spend a good deal of this years cap money on re-signing players like Thompson and Wilson etc.
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2003
- Posts
- 92,697
- Reaction score
- 71,646
40Year - you didn't answer my question - are you being serious with what you wrote?
Similar threads
