The Stench that is Killing us

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by ajcardfan
Basically, KC's offer was the same bonus and same average. The difference is in the third year, where Holliday gets the big payday or is a free agent again. In other words, an escalator. Graves stuck to Bidwill's principles here, but it will cost us in the short term, no doubt.

Long-term as well, unfortunately, I believe - Bidwill's principles have kept us in the tank for years and until he changes or God-forbid dies and this team goes on to another owner, I am really fearful that this team will NEVER get over the hump - Emmit was a PR move in my opinion, and at 3.5 per year - we look like buffoons considering no one else was even offering more than the minimum (according to reports) - and now I hear we are bringing in TONY MARTIN? Are we this desperate and clueless? Isn't he odler than the dirt that our grass at SDS usually degenerates into by November? Then you have the two main guys, actually three guys it seems we targeted - Colvin, Holliday and Stewart who all shunned us regardless of cash we were offering them.

Graves is not fresh blood - he has been Bidwill's right hand man and has negotiated contracts for years - Agents and Players have seen our history of bungling personell and dealing with contracts and why should they believe anythign will be any different? It is the main problem of staying within the organization. I'm not saying Graves is bad at his job - but as far as free agency, his main job is salesman - He has a coach with two years left on his contract and "apparently" is a Players coach (whether this means he's respected around the league by other players remains to be seen) and he had more money than GOD - but still couldn't get anyone of considerbale merit or difference makes to sign here. If you had the above and a name, say like Tom Donahue(spelling) or any other highly respected GM - some of those players will believe - it's a freshness - it's some Ferguson brought to this orgnaization and Bob Aackles before him - People want to blame the stench the Crads have for not signing guys we should have and you know what - YOU'RE RIGHT! But Graves is a huge part of that stench - right or wrong - but he is guilty by association and it has been shown so far that his main goals have not been met - as well we have been weakened in areas I didn't think we would have (WR - I won't go into the entire non-franchising decsion)

We hired from within and we have not changed our principles and we are paying for it. Period.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
Emmit was a PR move in my opinion, and at 3.5 per year - we look like buffoons considering no one else was even offering more than the minimum (according to reports)

Maybe you look like a buffoon, or the Cards look like buffoons, but I sure as hell don't!

Seriously calm down with your schtick man! You really get into this too much. I honestly have learned to give up the hopelessness and just watch things unfold (well not always but at least I try).

 

[Krangodnzr]

I mean, is this all you ever think about?

Rod Graves sucks, Bidwill sucks, sucks, sucks, sucks.......

Why do you continue to follow this team?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Re: Re: The Stench that is Killing us

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
Maybe you look like a buffoon, or the Cards look like buffoons, but I sure as hell don't!

Seriously calm down with your schtick man! You really get into this too much. I honestly have learned to give up the hopelessness and just watch things unfold (well not always but at least I try).

Jesus Krang - do you remember how annoying ti was when Plumemr apologist continually told you and still told you to shut up and that you were being too negative about him? No! My schtick is that we have major problems - your schtick is that we don't - you know just as much as my realism, or negativity, might rub you the wrong way, think about the fact that your opitmism, or realism as far as your concerned, rubs me the wrong way - BUT I NEVER TELL YOU NOT TO VOICE YOUR OPINION. Why don't you resopnd to the post instead of saying shut up? Or are you afraid that if yu try to dissect you will be fall right back to negativity because you will realize whterh you agree or not with everything, that there is a good deal of truth in what I wrote. Hey I wish it wasn't true . . .

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
I mean, is this all you ever think about?

Rod Graves sucks, Bidwill sucks, sucks, sucks, sucks.......

Why do you continue to follow this team?

Because I am from Arizona and I love the uniform - Let me ask you this, the new captain of the SS and killing other people's opnions police, WHAT THE FRUCK HAS BIDWILL DONE FOR ME NOT TO SAY THIS? As far as Graves, is your opinion and those of the others who love his "plan", the only ones that count. Krang, I used to think you were one of the better posters on this board, but your level of intolernace for other FANS point of views have seriously made me reconsider.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Re: Re: Re: The Stench that is Killing us

Originally posted by cheesebeef
Jesus Krang - do you remember how annoying ti was when Plumemr apologist continually told you and still told you to shut up and that you were being too negative about him? No! My schtick is that we have major problems - your schtick is that we don't - you know just as much as my realism, or negativity, might rub you the wrong way, think about the fact that your opitmism, or realism as far as your concerned, rubs me the wrong way - BUT I NEVER TELL YOU NOT TO VOICE YOUR OPINION. Why don't you resopnd to the post instead of saying shut up? Or are you afraid that if yu try to dissect you will be fall right back to negativity because you will realize whterh you agree or not with everything, that there is a good deal of truth in what I wrote. Hey I wish it wasn't true . . .

What are you talking about? I don't think that we don't have major problems, in fact I believe that we are going to have another bad season and Mac will be fired.

I just don't dwell on it like you do. This team will be damn lucky to go 7-9 in my opinion. I just don't think it is fun to dwell on the negativism all the time.

And my first post was meant to have fun with what you said, not disagree with you. So far, this offseason has been a disaster, but in the long run it might turn out ok, only time will tell.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Stench that is Killing us

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
What are you talking about? I don't think that we don't have major problems, in fact I believe that we are going to have another bad season and Mac will be fired.

I just don't dwell on it like you do. This team will be damn lucky to go 7-9 in my opinion. I just don't think it is fun to dwell on the negativism all the time.

And my first post was meant to have fun with what you said, not disagree with you. So far, this offseason has been a disaster, but in the long run it might turn out ok, only time will tell.

oh - disregard the SS comment then - I would like to post good things and was really hoping we got Holliday as I could start seeing positives but the straws just keeping getting higher and higher and I wanted to present a reason why Graves -as hard as he may try - won't be able to overcome the huge obstacle which is our tradition or lack thereof.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Stench that is Killing us

Originally posted by cheesebeef
oh - disregard the SS comment then - I would like to post good things and was really hoping we got Holliday as I could start seeing positives but the straws just keeping getting higher and higher and I wanted to present a reason why Graves -as hard as he may try - won't be able to overcome the huge obstacle which is our tradition or lack thereof.

See I look at Graves situation like this:

1. He works for an old fashioned mom and pop organization.
2. He has to overcome the lack of a winning tradition here to bring in free agents.
3. He has to do his best to get a disinterested fickle Arizona fanbase to take part in his product.

Graves is hamstrung. We can't really tell how he would do or will do without time. He could be the best GM that the Cardinals have ever had, or he could be the worst.

I just think we have to give him time first......and hope that Bidwill sells the team once the stadium is built!

(EDIT DUE TO AN IMMENSE BRAINFART BY KRANGTHEBRAIN)

 

[Krangodnzr]

Losing Holliday is actually no big deal to me. He really is only marginally better than KVB. But not getting Colvin makes the situation look worse.

This team can't rely on free agency as it stands right now. We have to build a good young core of players through the draft and become a winner first, then free agents will come here.

 

[jmr667]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Stench that is Killing us

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
He could be the worst GM that the Cardinals have ever had, or he could be the worst.

Sure doesn't look good for him when you put it that way.
j/k

 

[Krangodnzr]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Stench that is Killing us

Originally posted by jmr667
Sure doesn't look good for him when you put it that way.
j/k

Oops.....I guess I had too many Tetley's English Ales!

You know what I meant!

 

[AZCB34]

Cheesebeef, I agree and disagree. I think the hiring from within does cause the same issues over and over again with the hopes that someday that same error will actually work. I think the Cards problems with landing FA players also is the same with landing a FA GM...meaning I don't know if the Cards could actually land a high quality name GM to come here because of the general wierdness that is the Cards front office.

Where I disagree is even though the hiring of Graves WAS from within, I look at the overall picture of clarity in the front office. It has been widely reported that for a long time there has been alot of layers and murkiness to the front office. That is gone, and that is a good thing. Now there is one guy pretty much making all the decisions (we have heard that the Bidwills were the driving force for signing Emmitt). Have a single point man is critical these days IMO. I creates accountability and everyone knows exactly who is to blame now.

He has made a couple questionable choices, and I to am disappointed Tony Martin is somehow being looked at. I think time will tell whether or not this works. IMO one of the major mistakes was the handling of Fergy (I know some didn't like him) since he was a true football guy who has had quite a bit of success putting teams together...but since he could really run his own ship, he was made to look bad. Just watch SEA bounce back with him. Graves is a football guy but he hasn't had the success (anywhere close actually) that Fergy had.

IMO, again, this offseason has been a disappointment even though the team has improved some in a couple areas. How anyone can be overjoyed with this offseason up to this point I cannot understand. The Cards had the most cash and they really couldn't make things happen they wanted to...not because of money but perception. Perception is the stench here because money and having a players coach just isn't doing it.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by AZCB34
Cheesebeef, I agree and disagree. I think the hiring from within does cause the same issues over and over again with the hopes that someday that same error will actually work. I think the Cards problems with landing FA players also is the same with landing a FA GM...meaning I don't know if the Cards could actually land a high quality name GM to come here because of the general wierdness that is the Cards front office.

Where I disagree is even though the hiring of Graves WAS from within, I look at the overall picture of clarity in the front office. It has been widely reported that for a long time there has been alot of layers and murkiness to the front office. That is gone, and that is a good thing. Now there is one guy pretty much making all the decisions (we have heard that the Bidwills were the driving force for signing Emmitt). Have a single point man is critical these days IMO. I creates accountability and everyone knows exactly who is to blame now.

He has made a couple questionable choices, and I to am disappointed Tony Martin is somehow being looked at. I think time will tell whether or not this works. IMO one of the major mistakes was the handling of Fergy (I know some didn't like him) since he was a true football guy who has had quite a bit of success putting teams together...but since he could really run his own ship, he was made to look bad. Just watch SEA bounce back with him. Graves is a football guy but he hasn't had the success (anywhere close actually) that Fergy had.

IMO, again, this offseason has been a disappointment even though the team has improved some in a couple areas. How anyone can be overjoyed with this offseason up to this point I cannot understand. The Cards had the most cash and they really couldn't make things happen they wanted to...not because of money but perception. Perception is the stench here because money and having a players coach just isn't doing it.

The one glaring problem with Ferguson is his personality. He just gets way too emotional, and it seems that he tends to try to draft too many "character" guys (Wadsworth, Jones, etc.) and he also drafted players that didn't fit our scheme (Darwin Walker anyone?)

His handling of Simeon Rice and Mark Smith are two examples of him taking the wrong approach with players. He is not a modern NFL GM....he is a scout.

 

[Sandan]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
Graves is not fresh blood - he has been Bidwill's right hand man and has negotiated contracts for years

We hired from within and we have not changed our principles and we are paying for it. Period.

Cheesie, not to join in with Krang but on a more reasonable note.

I think you are taking a slanted view of RG. Yes he was hireed from within but I'm not sure and neither are you just what level of responibility he has had for contracts in past years.

Yes, we believe he was responbile for negoiating contracts but what we do not know is how much control or authority he had. For all we know he had very little.

Also even if we assume he had the control, ehich i seriously doubt, then he was left with doing contracts for players that Fergie brought in.

Now he is supposed to be in control of both sides and we will see what happens.

Now I know you will come back with the "But BB is still in control". To this I offer two comments:

1) If so, how can you blame RG
2) From hearing RG speak it sure doesn't sound like it to me.

From what I hear he is in control, sure the owners approve the staregy but IMO RG is coming up with the plan, then gettting it approved by ownership. If so this is radicly different from ownership coming up with the plan then RG/Fergie implemting it.

 

[Sandan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Stench that is Killing us

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
Oops.....I guess I had too many Tetley's English Ales!

You know what I meant!

Why on earth would you want to drink Tetley's, awful stuff.

Try some Fuller's ESB, it's a pale shadow of it's real live self (the FDA makes them pasturize it) but orders of magnitude better than Tetley's.

AJ's stocks Fullers and the ESB varient has coped with the FDA assult the best.

 

[Sandan]

I should also note that what is best over there is not true here, again thank the FDA.

In the UK Theakston's Old Peculier is amazing but over here I cannot recommend it. It does not deal with assult by the FDA well at all. It's also available at AJ's.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Stench that is Killing us

Originally posted by nidan
Why on earth would you want to drink Tetley's, awful stuff.

Try some Fuller's ESB, it's a pale shadow of it's real live self (the FDA makes them pasturize it) but orders of magnitude better than Tetley's.

AJ's stocks Fullers and the ESB varient has coped with the FDA assult the best.

Funny....I really like Tetley's.

I'll have to give those other beers a try. I like English and Irish beers the best, unlike most people I know.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
The one glaring problem with Ferguson is his personality. He just gets way too emotional, and it seems that he tends to try to draft too many "character" guys (Wadsworth, Jones, etc.) and he also drafted players that didn't fit our scheme (Darwin Walker anyone?)

His handling of Simeon Rice and Mark Smith are two examples of him taking the wrong approach with players. He is not a modern NFL GM....he is a scout.

Emotion isn't bad IMO and it shows he really cares. Does Rod Graves, when he speaks, ever seem like he is passionate about his job? I am not saying he isn't but I want to hear passion. Contrary to the nonsense we hear, there is nothing wrong with drafting character guys because if you put them together right you can still succeed. The problem with you examples have been thoroughly disected...Wads was hurt and Jones maybe couldn't get his talent to take the next step. How could that be Fergy's fault? Everyone says the draft is a crap shoot and thus it is. Wads wasn't a bad pick whatsoever just never panned out. Jones was a bit more controversial (I really wanted Urlacher myself) but again maybe not such a horrible pick at the time.

As for Darwin Walker, you may be onto something there however I also think the coaches need to take the players they have and play to their strengths even if it means adjusting their scheme to accomodate. Had the coaches realized the type of player Walker was and played to his strengths, he may be performing here.

Now, his handling of Rice and Smith...I agree to a certain extent that the way he handled it was wrong but IMO he is being held to a different standard than the players. Rice/Smith both used the media in their quest and ripped the team and fans and Fergy uses the media as well and he is wrong?

He is a modern GM with an old school style and it can and will still work. Maybe he needs to tweak his style a bit but I still think he got the shaft here and the Cards let another proven successful football guy get away.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by AZCB34
Emotion isn't bad IMO and it shows he really cares. Does Rod Graves, when he speaks, ever seem like he is passionate about his job? I am not saying he isn't but I want to hear passion. Contrary to the nonsense we hear, there is nothing wrong with drafting character guys because if you put them together right you can still succeed. The problem with you examples have been thoroughly disected...Wads was hurt and Jones maybe couldn't get his talent to take the next step. How could that be Fergy's fault? Everyone says the draft is a crap shoot and thus it is. Wads wasn't a bad pick whatsoever just never panned out. Jones was a bit more controversial (I really wanted Urlacher myself) but again maybe not such a horrible pick at the time.

As for Darwin Walker, you may be onto something there however I also think the coaches need to take the players they have and play to their strengths even if it means adjusting their scheme to accomodate. Had the coaches realized the type of player Walker was and played to his strengths, he may be performing here.

Now, his handling of Rice and Smith...I agree to a certain extent that the way he handled it was wrong but IMO he is being held to a different standard than the players. Rice/Smith both used the media in their quest and ripped the team and fans and Fergy uses the media as well and he is wrong?

He is a modern GM with an old school style and it can and will still work. Maybe he needs to tweak his style a bit but I still think he got the shaft here and the Cards let another proven successful football guy get away.

But you just hit on the meat of the problem. Many of Ferguson's picks didn't pan out. It doesn't matter why at all, it just mattters overall how he did, and frankly he sucked. His emotion might be nice for fans to see, but when he lets it get involved with contract negotiations it can be very problematic

And with the Rice/Smith situation, two wrongs don't make a right. Ferguson should not have taken his grievances public, it is classless and self-deprecating. Clearly it is the wrong thing to do in any situation.

As for what you said about Darwin Walker: If teams are constantly changing things to fit players (who in his case was a tremendous whiner) who are miscast, the scheme would not work. If you run a 4-3, you don't draft 3-4 OLB it just doesn't work very well. If you run a two-gap, you don't draft one-gap tackles (as it actually seems that we might have done with Bryant).

The way I look at it: I would take Ferguson as a scout any day, but he lacks the polish needed to deal with fans, players, and the media. He says things sometimes that he should never say and he lets his emotions get the better of him. I don't question his knowledge, just the way he goes about doing things and his track record here was terrible.

 

[justAndy]

wait

... 'til kickoff on opening day, that's my mantra. a couple seasons ago, when the Cards went 7-9, preseason I was convinced they'd maybe go 5-11. Last preseason, I looked at the schedule and said "6-10, or 7-9". I'm always wrong. Look how often the "experts" get it wrong.

 

[Sandan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Stench that is Killing us

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
Funny....I really like Tetley's.

I'll have to give those other beers a try. I like English and Irish beers the best, unlike most people I know.

Didn't say Tetley's was bad, it's just that Fuller's ESB is so much better.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I haven't like Graves since day 1 and stated so.He has done nothing to improve this team.The team needs fresh blood.They have had basically the same coaching staff and front office intact for years.Mcgiinis,Greene,Roland,Graves,Bidwill's have all been there for years.I don't see how anyone can call this offseason a success.WE've lost our best player and another former #1 pick.We didn't get either of our top 2 free agent targets.We have a low character,bum for a QB.We have no WR's and a 34 year old RB.Yet some people think this has been a great off season.The signing of Hodgins and Jackson were good moves.The other guys are non-factors.Graves has had the oppurtunity to make the necessary changes to improve the Cards and has failed every one so far.Boston is only guaranteed a little over 7 million dollars.For that we let him go with no compensation.Graves is no more than a front man.I held out hope that he would prove me wrong and do something to make the Cards competitive.Instead they tried a PR move by getting Smith.I hope he will have the sense to draft Leftwich,but it looks like we're going to go with an undersized,slow local boy from ASU.Again with an eye to the PR side of it instead of what's good to make the team win.In other words,i agree with cheesesbeef.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Cbus cardsfan
I haven't like Graves since day 1 and stated so.He has done nothing to improve this team.The team needs fresh blood.They have had basically the same coaching staff and front office intact for years.Mcgiinis,Greene,Roland,Graves,Bidwill's have all been there for years.I don't see how anyone can call this offseason a success.WE've lost our best player and another former #1 pick.We didn't get either of our top 2 free agent targets.We have a low character,bum for a QB.We have no WR's and a 34 year old RB.Yet some people think this has been a great off season.The signing of Hodgins and Jackson were good moves.The other guys are non-factors.Graves has had the oppurtunity to make the necessary changes to improve the Cards and has failed every one so far.Boston is only guaranteed a little over 7 million dollars.For that we let him go with no compensation.Graves is no more than a front man.I held out hope that he would prove me wrong and do something to make the Cards competitive.Instead they tried a PR move by getting Smith.I hope he will have the sense to draft Leftwich,but it looks like we're going to go with an undersized,slow local boy from ASU.Again with an eye to the PR side of it instead of what's good to make the team win.In other words,i agree with cheesesbeef.

Oh yeah Suggs sure is slow.....

He sure as hell didn't look slow as he completely dominated anyone he went up against last year and looked like a man among boys in every single game he played in.

I guess that you must only trust what 40 times and workouts tell you about a player, and not what he has done on the field and shown on film. I guess you must think that Mike Mamula was the greatest player ever....

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Well,you must think Thomas Burke is a great football player.He was a dominant college DE.I look at the competition that Suggs played against.There's not 1 great prospect that i know of he lined up against.The reason Mamula was drafted so high was that he had the numbers that correspond to a high draft pick.His playing ability didn't match it.If Suggs can't speed rush then he will not make it.Maybe he just had a bad day at his workout but his speed has to be of a concern.People want to compare him to Freeney.Freeney ran a 4.3 something.If he had run a 4.8 then he'd ben lucky to get drafted.From what i read Suggs first 10 yards weren't that great either which means he lacked explosion.All are legitimate concerns.But,i guess,since he played for ASU then they should all be overlooked.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
But you just hit on the meat of the problem. Many of Ferguson's picks didn't pan out. It doesn't matter why at all, it just mattters overall how he did, and frankly he sucked. His emotion might be nice for fans to see, but when he lets it get involved with contract negotiations it can be very problematic

And with the Rice/Smith situation, two wrongs don't make a right. Ferguson should not have taken his grievances public, it is classless and self-deprecating. Clearly it is the wrong thing to do in any situation.

As for what you said about Darwin Walker: If teams are constantly changing things to fit players (who in his case was a tremendous whiner) who are miscast, the scheme would not work. If you run a 4-3, you don't draft 3-4 OLB it just doesn't work very well. If you run a two-gap, you don't draft one-gap tackles (as it actually seems that we might have done with Bryant).

The way I look at it: I would take Ferguson as a scout any day, but he lacks the polish needed to deal with fans, players, and the media. He says things sometimes that he should never say and he lets his emotions get the better of him. I don't question his knowledge, just the way he goes about doing things and his track record here was terrible.

So in other words, he made good picks in the draft but because one guy barely played due to injury and another could never hold the starting spot on his own and another called AZ the armpit of the NFL etc, then Fergy sucks. Oh and I forgot he cannot go to the media (which by the way virtually every GM does via the anonymous source) to air his thoughts when every player can and most do the exact same thing?

On the Walker thing I agree with you BUT if the Cards were simply drafting the best athlete with that pick and he was it, either he should have been passed because he doesn't fit the scheme (very realistic) or if they like his talent so much then the coaches must adapt (which they probably liked his talent enough they thought they could use him).

Fergy's track record here was bad but how can you explain his track record, which was very good, prior to arriving here? Are you suggesting he just lost his abilities and just sucked? Or can we say he didn't have the latitude to run things his way (right or wrong) and allow him to use his football ability? I think the latter is more likely.

Guess we are on opposite sides on this one and I fully expect him to be a success in SEA...another very good person pushed out of AZ...and the reason I believe that is I find it impossible to accept he simply couldn't do the job anymore.