The trade

[dreamcastrocks]

The Eagles got fair value for their pick. That is from a universally recognized source for draft value. Cleveland didn't make a desperate move, they just paid full price

The problem with getting fair market value is that you are the one waiting by the phone for someone else to call you. In that 10 minutes, you don't have time to call teams asking if they would be interested in the pick.

The only thing that they could have done differently IMO is wait a few more minutes to see if any other teams wanted to call. They do that and who knows, NO pulls their offer.

 

[ajcardfan]

So some guy years ago comes up with a draft value chart, and we treat it as gospel. Nuts.

And if our trade had done better than that chart says we should've we'd have posters here lining up for uterus implants and hormone injections so they could bear children for Keim.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

The problem with getting fair market value is that you are the one waiting by the phone for someone else to call you. In that 10 minutes, you don't have time to call teams asking if they would be interested in the pick.

The only thing that they could have done differently IMO is wait a few more minutes to see if any other teams wanted to call. They do that and who knows, NO pulls their offer.

Sure. Slow it down and play it tighter. Even swapping picks in round 5 would have been a little more juice. This came across like we were motivated to sell

 

[Cheesebeef]

And if our trade had done better than that chart says we should've we'd have posters here lining up for uterus implants and hormone injections so they could bear children for Keim.

haha...comedic post of the day!

 

[Vermont Maverick]

The Eagles got fair value for their pick. That is from a universally recognized source for draft value. Cleveland didn't make a desperate move, they just paid full price

NO, they got 105 points over value. That's what the market generated at that time. Good for them. And fortunate.


Cleveland VERY well could have been looking for a reciever. It was reported they were on the phone with Kansas City at 11 and were close to a deal with them. When Odell Beckham went off the board at 12, there was no more rumors of Cleveland moving up. They easily could have had a couple of WR they really liked, Beckam and Cooks. Once they went, it was plan B, Manzeil. Maybe the next few receivers are really closely ranked for them and they will take one early in Round 2.

 

[Dback Jon]

To answer the earlier question, I am unhappy with the selection and the trade.

To separate transactions, two mistakes by Keim

In your opinion.


Listening, reading, most of the negative reaction nationwide comes from You, Shane and C-Bus

 

[PDXChris]

.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

In your opinion.


Listening, reading, most of the negative reaction nationwide comes from You, Shane and C-Bus

Hmm...time will tell on the pick. I think he really struggles in coverage and did so in college.

That can be taught though. Again I thought Minter was a two down lb who can't cover. We will see that too this year since the only time he was on the field was in warm ups last year.

This trade though I just felt they could have gotten more and every metric I find agrees with that.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Lol ironically I am eating lunch now

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Sure. Slow it down and play it tighter. Even swapping picks in round 5 would have been a little more juice. This came across like we were motivated to sell

We were motivated to sell.

Getting 90% value for a $5,000 car that you really want to sell is better than waiting to possibly get 100% value if the right buyer comes along. Especially when you only have a 10 minute selling window.

 

[tnmike]

So some guy years ago comes up with a draft value chart, and we treat it as gospel. Nuts.

Everybody wants to put everything in a box of absolutes. Whether you are buying a car, or a house, or drafting in the NFL, there are no absolutes in any trade

 

[82CardsGrad]

Hmm...time will tell on the pick. I think he really struggles in coverage and did so in college.

So, you conclude this by viewing his incredible combine performance? His 15 career INTs at WSU? Or, by negating all if the expert commentary about him that says he has the ability to cover NFL tight ends??





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TJ]

And if our trade had done better than that chart says we should've we'd have posters here lining up for uterus implants and hormone injections so they could bear children for Keim.

Gross

 

[Harry]

That "some guy" who put together the draft value chart was Jimmy Johnson. He didn't do it personally, but had the numbers run over several years based on the performance of players taken at various points in the draft, e.g. Pro Bowl player, starter, etc.

The application of mathematics to all sports is hardly nonsense.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Everyone is making a lot of assumptions on here. More like justifications. The only real facts are that the Cardinals gave up more and got less than someone in nearly an identical situation. That is has been the standard for this team for a long time.

At some point you have to stop making excuses.

Really???

I'm trying to figure out what you are suggesting with this thread?

Are you saying that the Browns came to the Cardinals and the Cardinals turned down the deal for a lesser deal with the Saints? I doubt it but I don't see any other logical arguement that you could frame with your original statement.

Common sense would say that if the Browns did come to the Cards with the same offer, then the Cards would have taken it. Therefore it doesn't take much thought to realize that the Browns didn't approach the Cardinals with said trade and your assumptions are completely off base.

 

[tnmike]

That "some guy" who put together the draft value chart was Jimmy Johnson. He didn't do it personally, but had the numbers run over several years based on the performance of players taken at various points in the draft, e.g. Pro Bowl player, starter, etc.

The application of mathematics to all sports is hardly nonsense.

Its been how long since he was with a team? Everything changes

 

[PDXChris]

That "some guy" who put together the draft value chart was Jimmy Johnson. He didn't do it personally, but had the numbers run over several years based on the performance of players taken at various points in the draft, e.g. Pro Bowl player, starter, etc.

The application of mathematics to all sports is hardly nonsense.

This was almost 30 years ago when there were 10 power house programs and only a handful of can't miss prospects. The talent is so much differenct now that the many picks are a crap shoot since the players are so even. As K9 pointed out in another thread, the drop off of talent it not big until around pick 50. The fact that so many players can now come into the league and make an instant impact really speaks to that. So, yes, the chart is out of date as taking a RB in the 1st round.

 

[cardfaninfl]

Hand Wringers, buck passers and Monday morning quarterbacks

I would have gone with antiquated value charts, Madden game players and people who think mock drafts are the new sabermetrics.

 

[BurqueCardFan]

That "some guy" who put together the draft value chart was Jimmy Johnson. He didn't do it personally, but had the numbers run over several years based on the performance of players taken at various points in the draft, e.g. Pro Bowl player, starter, etc.

The application of mathematics to all sports is hardly nonsense.

Yet, some posters on this board choose to ignore the facts. I'm sure lots of relevant people in the business still use these charts as the basis of trades. Even Pat Kirwin (Sirius) and several other media folk that are former FO people use the charts when speaking on trade discussions.

 

[MadCardDisease]

That "some guy" who put together the draft value chart was Jimmy Johnson. He didn't do it personally, but had the numbers run over several years based on the performance of players taken at various points in the draft, e.g. Pro Bowl player, starter, etc.

The application of mathematics to all sports is hardly nonsense.

I think it is a fine guideline but taking it as gospel would be foolish.

What you get in a trade depends on so many variables. Who is left on the board. How many teams are looking to move up. Depth at specific positions. Depth of the draft. etc.

You look at this draft and how deep it is, getting a 3rd round pick for moving back 7 spots seems like a pretty good deal in my book.

 

[PDXChris]

Yet, some posters on this board choose to ignore the facts.

What fact? The fact that the chart is 30 years old and was created when Herschel Walker was traded, which happened in 1989. When there were only a handful of impact players drafted every year? When the difference between a top 5 pick and top 30 pick meant the difference of turning a team around in one year?

 

[Hypothesis]

Hmm...time will tell on the pick. I think he really struggles in coverage and did so in college.

That can be taught though. Again I thought Minter was a two down lb who can't cover. We will see that too this year since the only time he was on the field was in warm ups last year.

This trade though I just felt they could have gotten more and every metric I find agrees with that.

Quite the contrary...Bucannon is excellent in coverage.

I don't think it's going to take too long for him to win over most Cardinal fans nor will it take too long for opposing WR's and TE's to become quite familiar with him. I'll even throw in opposing QB's too since he's a very good blitzer.

 

[BurqueCardFan]

What fact? The fact that the chart is 30 years old and was created when Herschel Walker was traded, which happened in 1989. When there were only a handful of impact players drafted every year? When the difference between a top 5 pick and top 30 pick meant the difference of turning a team around in one year?

The fact that this chart or a variation of it, probably is still heavily in use today. People are trying to de-value the chart in order to make our trade seem better. I'm not saying they shouldn't have traded. I just think they should have justifiably squeezed more out of the trade or just stayed put and drafted another player at #20. I think SK was dead set on making a trade, based on his pre-draft talk and just jumped at the chance instead of playing a little more hardball.
Just like I can see them moving up in round 2 tonight, based on his post round 1 comments, just because they now have any extra pick.

 

[PDXChris]

The fact that this chart or a variation of it, probably is still heavily in use today. People are trying to de-value the chart in order to make our trade seem better. I'm not saying they shouldn't have traded. I just think they should have justifiably squeezed more out of the trade or just stayed put and drafted another player at #20. I think SK was dead set on making a trade, based on his pre-draft talk and just jumped at the chance instead of playing a little more hardball.
Just like I can see them moving up in round 2 tonight, based on his post round 1 comments, just because they now have any extra pick.

Can you please provide a link that it is still being used heavily?

And if it is, I have a feeling that Oakland and Dallas will at the top of that list of teams that use it.

Thankfully SK is smart enough to go beyond an outdated chart that in no way represent today's NFL.

 

[Dback Jon]

That "some guy" who put together the draft value chart was Jimmy Johnson. He didn't do it personally, but had the numbers run over several years based on the performance of players taken at various points in the draft, e.g. Pro Bowl player, starter, etc.

The application of mathematics to all sports is hardly nonsense.

And again, we treat it as pure gospel? Numbers that can never be changed, varied from?

Of course there is a place for math in sports. But it is not absolute. If the Cards were looking to take Bucannon in the first regardless, then any additional pick is a bonus. If there was no one a 20 they valued as well as Bucannon, then any additional pick is a bonus.