Things-----they are a changin'-----

gmabel830

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Wouldn't have mattered one iota in this game the saints had like 20 passes to 3 runs in this game at the half. Dan Williams is not the reason we lost not even close.

Catfish's reply to my original question made it clear he thought the loss of Williams was about more than just running the football. And, while I certainly don't agree with him, replies like this are a good example of why Catfish gets frustrated that people attack him without even reading his posts.
 

PJ1

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Only bright spot of the game was the run D. I liked what I saw of Ta'amu. Problem was our linebackers and secondary had no answer. Both our OL and Palmer sucked today also.
 

Duckjake

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Only bright spot of the game was the run D. I liked what I saw of Ta'amu. Problem was our linebackers and secondary had no answer. Both our OL and Palmer sucked today also.

Not counting Brees scrambles the Saints averaged 4.6 yards per carry today.

Positives: Dockett had 3 sacks. As poor as Palmer played he didn't run backwards 10 yards before getting sacked.
 

Cheesebeef

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Catfish's reply to my original question made it clear he thought the loss of Williams was about more than just running the football. And, while I certainly don't agree with him, replies like this are a good example of why Catfish gets frustrated that people attack him without even reading his posts.

"Wouldn't have mattered one iota in this game the saints had like 20 passes to 3 runs in this game at the half. Dan Williams is not the reason we lost not even close."

is this really considered an "attack". seems like a disagreement. and people misread others posts all the time. if someone feels like their post has been misread, restate your opinion. happened to me in this thread. I didn't take offense to it. just had to restate my opinion to be clear.
 
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PJ1

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Not counting Brees scrambles the Saints averaged 4.6 yards per carry today.

Positives: Dockett had 3 sacks. As poor as Palmer played he didn't run backwards 10 yards before getting sacked.

They gashed us at the end for sure but that was after the D was gassed. The D line played well although still waiting for CC to dominate.
 

az240zz

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I have a different take. In the 1st half we ran pretty well, a little over 5 yards a carry. I don't think we had any running plays 2nd half thus we went 3 and out, like last year, and our defense tired.
 
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Catfish

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"Wouldn't have mattered one iota in this game the saints had like 20 passes to 3 runs in this game at the half. Dan Williams is not the reason we lost not even close."

is this really considered an "attack". seems like a disagreement. and people misread others posts all the time. if someone feels like their post has been misread, restate your opinion. happened to me in this thread. I didn't take offense to it. just had to restate my opinion to be clear.

I have no argument with any of you concerning this game. This was bad. There is no sugar coating it. As I said, while I didn't expect to win, this was certainly unexpected. I would guess that it was for you too. No one predicts a blowout, and this was one of epic proportions. Until today, N.O. had no running game. We gave them one, though it wasn't needed, (or at least used much), until the 2nd half.

In my opinion, a defense cannot simply sell-out on every play with the LB's and D-L's, and then play straight up man in the secondary. That is a recipe for disaster as it leaves no contain, any time. Hence, any time our D failed to control Brees, he was able to move about to find a freebie to throw to. There simply was no contain on defense for us, and it cost us.

It is just one loss, on the road however, and we now are tied with San Fran at 1-2 in the West. We still have the opportunity to come back from this road trip 2-2, though that is not likely if we play like this in Tampa.
 

ajcardfan

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Wouldn't have mattered one iota in this game the saints had like 20 passes to 3 runs in this game at the half. Dan Williams is not the reason we lost not even close.

When your defense loses it's leader in interceptions, of course the pass D will suffer. :D
 

Duckjake

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Watching game rewind. At 10:32 left in the 3rd New Orleans had run the ball 8 times and thrown 32 passes. What good does it do to have a stout run defense in today's NFL?

Give me back Horton and his strong pass defense and mediocre run D. Bowles and his top 5 run D and bottom 10 pass D can go back to wherever he came from.
 

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Watching game rewind. At 10:32 left in the 3rd New Orleans had run the ball 8 times and thrown 32 passes. What good does it do to have a stout run defense in today's NFL?

Very valid question. I still hear many of the talking heads stating that you must be able to stop the run and that conflicts with this being a QB driven league.

Give me back Horton and his strong pass defense and mediocre run D. Bowles and his top 5 run D and bottom 10 pass D can go back to wherever he came from.

Horton's D use to irritate me at times because we sucked defending the run. I truly miss that irritation since it's been replaced by huge weeping sores.

I wonder if part of the reason BA didn't want Horton was because of the difference in philosophy on run D. Horton obviously didn't worry about it much and BA goes on and on about running the ball and stopping the run.

I think BA loves play action passing & multiple TE sets and his O has this coursing through it's DNA. So since this DNA is predicated on being able to run then he believes his D must be able to negate the run to stop the opposing offense.

 

kerouac9

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Horton's D use to irritate me at times because we sucked defending the run. I truly miss that irritation since it's been replaced by huge weeping sores.

I wonder if part of the reason BA didn't want Horton was because of the difference in philosophy on run D. Horton obviously didn't worry about it much and BA goes on and on about running the ball and stopping the run.

I think BA loves play action passing & multiple TE sets and his O has this coursing through it's DNA. So since this DNA is predicated on being able to run then he believes his D must be able to negate the run to stop the opposing offense.


I think you're projecting what you think more than what Arians actually says or does. I've heard him say very little about wanting to run the ball, except for rare "chunk" plays. We rarely if ever use play action (I'll do a count on it from the last three games this week). The use of multiple-TE sets is more about disguising run/pass than establishing the run.
 

Buckybird

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I think you're projecting what you think more than what Arians actually says or does. I've heard him say very little about wanting to run the ball, except for rare "chunk" plays. We rarely if ever use play action (I'll do a count on it from the last three games this week). The use of multiple-TE sets is more about disguising run/pass than establishing the run.

Yep

Anyone who watched the Stealers & Colts while BA was there saw what he wanted to do offensively...throw the rock!!!
 

Duckjake

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LOL Good one.

3 winning seasons in 28 years. And every year we give them the benefit of the doubt. We're the most patient people on the planet. :p
 

Cardiac

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I think you're projecting what you think more than what Arians actually says or does. I've heard him say very little about wanting to run the ball, except for rare "chunk" plays. We rarely if ever use play action (I'll do a count on it from the last three games this week). The use of multiple-TE sets is more about disguising run/pass than establishing the run.

Yep

Anyone who watched the Stealers & Colts while BA was there saw what he wanted to do offensively...throw the rock!!!

It is well documented how BA loves to throw the ball. But when the announcers state that BA wants to have a power running game then you know it came from the pregame interview. 5 RB's on the roster might be a bit of an indication as well, or not.

I think BA's 2 & 3 TE sets is his version of play action. Teams don't know whether it will be a pass or run because TE's can block or receive.

I fully admit my tea leave reading could be off but it appears to me that Bowles is all about stopping the run and I think we can all agree that Horton didn't worry about it so much, and I agree with Horton. Trying to put together a long TD drive predicated on the run in todays NFL is borderline ludicrous. It happens but at such a low % you can't even see it on a bar graph.

The famous line of when you throw the ball 3 things can happen and two of them are bad is now, IMHO, reversed to the run game. Either you get stuffed or your Oline gets called for holding or you gain 6 + yards.
 

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It is well documented how BA loves to throw the ball. But when the announcers state that BA wants to have a power running game then you know it came from the pregame interview. 5 RB's on the roster might be a bit of an indication as well, or not.

I think BA's 2 & 3 TE sets is his version of play action. Teams don't know whether it will be a pass or run because TE's can block or receive.

I fully admit my tea leave reading could be off but it appears to me that Bowles is all about stopping the run and I think we can all agree that Horton didn't worry about it so much, and I agree with Horton. Trying to put together a long TD drive predicated on the run in todays NFL is borderline ludicrous. It happens but at such a low % you can't even see it on a bar graph.

The famous line of when you throw the ball 3 things can happen and two of them are bad is now, IMHO, reversed to the run game. Either you get stuffed or your Oline gets called for holding or you gain 6 + yards.

Or it could mean that we have FOX's worst announcing crew and they don't take notes when Arians says that he wants to run "Power" the play, not a "power running game" that is the basis for the offense.

 
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Catfish

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Oh my. Now you think Danbus such a great player that if here it would've kept NO from throwing all over us.

Just wow!

Shane, this is one example of you putting your words out there to make it look like they came from my mouth. That is flaming, pure and simple. I never said any such thing. I said that his loss mattered in this game-----I never said that it was because we couldn't stop the run without Williams. The one had nothing to do with the other. Those are YOUR words and they appear to me, (at least), to have no purpose other than to inflame me personally. If you don't like what I write, put me on ignore. If nothing else, at least try to actually read my posts to see what they actually do say. You cannot simply read a heading or title, and maybe a sentence or a phrase, then attack a writer.
 

Chopper0080

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Watching game rewind. At 10:32 left in the 3rd New Orleans had run the ball 8 times and thrown 32 passes. What good does it do to have a stout run defense in today's NFL?

Give me back Horton and his strong pass defense and mediocre run D. Bowles and his top 5 run D and bottom 10 pass D can go back to wherever he came from.

Yeah, stopping the run is very overrated in the league right now. It has it's place, but a solid nickel defense that can pressure and confuse QBs is key. Bowles defense does neither of these as it is just a man vs man matchup across the board which doesn't work in today's NFL with the rules the way they are. In a matchup league, you just can't assemble a roster that has enough talent to matchup with team's offensive personnel.
 

Shane

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Shane, this is one example of you putting your words out there to make it look like they came from my mouth. That is flaming, pure and simple. I never said any such thing. I said that his loss mattered in this game-----I never said that it was because we couldn't stop the run without Williams. The one had nothing to do with the other. Those are YOUR words and they appear to me, (at least), to have no purpose other than to inflame me personally. If you don't like what I write, put me on ignore. If nothing else, at least try to actually read my posts to see what they actually do say. You cannot simply read a heading or title, and maybe a sentence or a phrase, then attack a writer.

It seems pretty clear to me that in the absence of Williams, the coaches chose to gamble on an all out pass rush by the D-line, and that led to no contain. There was more than just the lack of a run early. There was no one controlling gaps, which allowed RB's to sneak through the line to be open in the secondary after the receivers cleared out. There was also no contain on QB who's mobility killed us late. The defense they opted for in the absence of Williams played right into the strength of N.O.'s offense. Meanwhile, our offense was pretty non existent after the first quarter.

Ok well first off my quote was in reference to this post above. In which YOU believe that having Williams out caused us to do the bolded in your post right??

Thus you think that Williams is so good that the coaches completely altered the game plan due to his absence and him being out accounted for a change in defense and being a reason that we were thrown all over during the game correct? RB's breaking into passing lanes? No controlling of gaps? No ability to contain the QB? These are direct quotes from you as to what occurred IYO due to William's being out and a change in coaching philosophy Are they not?

So no I didn't put words in your mouth YOU DID! Just because I don't agree with you isn't flaming. One day maybe you'll understand that.

:rolleyes:
 
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Catfish

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Ok well first off my quote was in reference to this post above. In which YOU believe that having Williams out caused us to do the bolded in your post right??

Thus you think that Williams is so good that the coaches completely altered the game plan due to his absence and him being out accounted for a change in defense and being a reason that we were thrown all over during the game correct? RB's breaking into passing lanes? No controlling of gaps? No ability to contain the QB? These are direct quotes from you as to what occurred IYO due to William's being out and a change in coaching philosophy Are they not?

So no I didn't put words in your mouth YOU DID! Just because I don't agree with you isn't flaming. One day maybe you'll understand that.

:rolleyes:

I'll give you that the coaches probably didn't devise this because Williams was out-----I won't back off from the fact that this IS the defense they chose to use. It caused all the things that I said it did, AND they played straight up man in the secondary. They did allow RB's to come open unaccounted for in the secondary. They did not account for gap control along the line of scrimmage. They did not account for the mobility of the QB, AND this was planned. I assumed that they changed to this because of the absence of Williams. If this was their plan, then it even makes it worse than if they had suddenly changed to this. In any event, I stand by my statements about this plan failing.

The fact that I was probably wrong about them doing it because of Williams absence has no bearing on what they did. Also, the fact that you chose to make such a snide, one line remark, is also indicative of a personal attack on me, (because you infer that my claim was that without Williams we could not stop them from throwing the ball). That was never the case. Those are your words. AND they did come from your mouth, not mine. Please do not try to deflect your intent onto something that you gave no thought to at the time. Your obvious intent was to make me look the fool, not point out that Williams absence was the sole reason for them devising this game plan.

I still believe that had Williams been in the game, there would have been better gap control than what occurred in his absence. It was the constant pass rush by the D'line, and the constant running to account for lack of gap control by chasing down receivers out of the back field and the QB not being contained that wore out our defensive front 7. Having no help from the offense after the first series to keep the D off the field also caused much harm. More running could surely have made a difference there instead of passing like our hair was on fire.

I will say again, if you do not wish to read my posts, then put me on ignore. Do not continue to use snide one liners to say things that I did not say or intend. If you wish to disagree with me, please do so, and state why you feel that way. I will be happy to reply within reason.

In this instance, you posted this reply only five minutes after my post. It was kind of obvious that you had been waiting to do so, and that you relished the opportunity to do what you did. Right down to the eye rolling.
And, by the way, I do know the difference between flaming and genuine disagreement.
 
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