Thinking Cardinals 8/16/11

[oaken1]

we all knew about the clauses in Larry's contract back when he signed it....we knew then he had all the leverage and there was a good chance we would lose him at the end of the contract.
I would hate to see him go, but the team were damned fools for making that lopsided deal in the first place....(cough....Denny Green........cough)

Like many, I would prefer to see the team still being active in improving depth and talent....bringing in more players while they are actually negotiating with Fitz cannot hurt their position.

On the defense.... IMO it is a waste of time to read too much into production or intensity on a team with a new DC, several key new players.....and one week of practice. We do not have a balls out all world pass rusher...common knowledge....however, IMO this team will get their pressure via scheme....we do have the talent to get late game pressure with a four man rush after the O-Line has been befuddled and worn out by the schemes for three and a half quarters.

<------- This dude is reserving any damning judgements until after the Carolina game, and even then it will be slightly tempered.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Far be it from me to get too involved in this banter, but from the quote:



So if FA started on a Saturday and he flew in on the following Saturday wouldn't that be 7 days?

sure... but he didn't sign for a couple days after that, right and even so... in 7 days he went to no other suitors... even to try and leverage in negotiations? doesn't seem like a very good bargaining strategy from Rosenhaus, one of the best in the biz.

 

[Red Dawn]

The article did say the contract made him one of the highest paid RB's in league history, exceeding the contract reigning MVP Shaun Alexander got. I agree about Drew, but the deal he got was top notch, so maybe they did not have to go anywhere else.

OK, i'm going back to the sidelines now.

 

[wa52lz]

um... what would losing Fitz, Dansby, Rolle, Q, Breaston, making Warner go out and get and offer from someone else look like Mulli? NOT PAYING. what does sitting on 30 million dollars look like? NOT PAYING. What does sitting on another 11 million the next season look like? NOT PAYING..

A lot has been said on this thread about the $30 or $40 million not spent last year, and I was wondering if anyone could clear up a couple of things in re: to this money.
1) Is it true that the Cardinals had made offers for the same or equal money to Dansby and Rolle? If so were they negotiating simultaneously w/ both or was one already signed before the other was made an offer?
2) How did the Rule of 8, or whatever it was called since we made the Final 8 in 2009, effect the ability to sign FA’s from other teams?
3) If we made fair offers to Dansby and Rolle and they walked because they wanted to be somewhere else, who should have we spent that money on and would it have been possible w/ the Rule of 8?? Looking at this list of 2010 FA’s there aren’t too many names that stand out that were UFA’s. Should we’ve just spent the money and over paid marginal players to not give the appearance of being cheap?
http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=1...&lnid=83&rc=16

 

[Duckjake]

After reading 14 pages of this thread, I have come to one conclusion. If Fitzgerald stays or if Fitzgerald goes I will still be a Cardinals fan. One player does not a team make.

5-11 with 'em. 5-11 without 'em.

 

[Cards_Campos]

1st off. Losing Fitzgerald will put the franchise back 10 years. WIth Fitz we have a top 5-6 wr corp in the NFL. Without him we drop to the 27-32 range easily.

2nd Mitch..I always enjoy your posts and me and you agree alot on things.( Matt Lienart and Warner) but I think you have really have to let this play out. Lee Evans did not fit this team. Fitz dominated the Playoffs because he was the one going deep. We need the slot and middle of the field receivers to let him get in open space. The signing of Heap will do wonders for Fitzgerald, because if Heap is constantly roaming the middle the safeties will have to cheat up sometimes and Fitz will have 1 on 1 coverage. Those coverage's are the ones Fitz tore up in the playoffs with Warner just lofting the ball to him.

I think the team has done a great job of trying to reload. We have 51 NEW PLAYERS Mitch. I mean how many more more do we need before it would be just starting over. Kolb should bring us 3 to 4 more wins just by not playing the position like a 3rd grader. If we win 9 games, we have equaled our Super Bowl year.

Fitz resigning is automatic in my opinion. Almost to the point I would pay Fitz 6 years 90-100 million and guarantee 50 million of it. I would. And I think he would be a steal. Because in 4 years, he would be playing cheap. Especially if we give him a signing bonus of around 20 million.

Fitz is the Cardinals. I am sorry. I have been a fan for over 35 years. I loved Warner, Roy Green, Larry Centers, An Williams. etc etc many a Cardinal. But NO ONE has Meant more and represented the Cardinals better than LArry Fitzgerald. No one ever! SO pay him beyond what is reasonable. His prescence alone is worth 5 million.

I say the Cardinals will not let him go and he will retire a Cardinal.

 

[Cheesebeef]

A lot has been said on this thread about the $30 or $40 million not spent last year, and I was wondering if anyone could clear up a couple of things in re: to this money.
1) Is it true that the Cardinals had made offers for the same or equal money to Dansby and Rolle? If so were they negotiating simultaneously w/ both or was one already signed before the other was made an offer?
2) How did the Rule of 8, or whatever it was called since we made the Final 8 in 2009, effect the ability to sign FA’s from other teams?
3) If we made fair offers to Dansby and Rolle and they walked because they wanted to be somewhere else, who should have we spent that money on and would it have been possible w/ the Rule of 8?? Looking at this list of 2010 FA’s there aren’t too many names that stand out that were UFA’s. Should we’ve just spent the money and over paid marginal players to not give the appearance of being cheap?
http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=1...&lnid=83&rc=16

good teams don't let their best players get to FA. why? because they'll probably lose them and most teams don't let good players hit FA, so there's nothing to replace them with.

 

[wa52lz]

and yet, in 11 days of FA, he never went anywhere else.

He signed 3/13 per the espn article
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2365467

Free agency started on 3/10

"Well, it certainly didn’t take the NFL Free Agency period long to get into gear, did it? In only a matter of a few days, most of the biggest names have gotten contracts and although there are still several waiting, especially at the QB position, it’s likely that it will only be another couple of days before most of the remaining big names are signed as well. And we, as fantasy football fanatics, always have interest in how the signing to a new team will impact these players. Let’s go down the list of meaningful signings in the NFL free agent market to date and their impact for the 2006 Fantasy Football season. I am omitting all players (Shaun Alexander, Ahman Green, etc) who were re-signed by their team before the NFL free agency period officially began on March 10th:"
https://fantasyfootballstarters.com/wtw_earlySign.jsp

 

[Cheesebeef]

He signed 3/13 per the espn article
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2365467

Free agency started on 3/10

"Well, it certainly didn’t take the NFL Free Agency period long to get into gear, did it? In only a matter of a few days, most of the biggest names have gotten contracts and although there are still several waiting, especially at the QB position, it’s likely that it will only be another couple of days before most of the remaining big names are signed as well. And we, as fantasy football fanatics, always have interest in how the signing to a new team will impact these players. Let’s go down the list of meaningful signings in the NFL free agent market to date and their impact for the 2006 Fantasy Football season. I am omitting all players (Shaun Alexander, Ahman Green, etc) who were re-signed by their team before the NFL free agency period officially began on March 10th:"
https://fantasyfootballstarters.com/wtw_earlySign.jsp

huh... i was wrong. still doesn't take away from the other point that us going after GOOD teams cast-offs is a BAD idea. you rape and pillage the stupid, not pick up what's left over from the smart.

 

[Cheesebeef]

huh... i was wrong.

or was I? this says FA started on March 3rd:

http://www.thehuddle.com/nfl/2006/free-agents.php

still doesn't take away from the other point that us going after GOOD teams cast-offs is a BAD idea. you rape and pillage the stupid, not pick up what's left over from the smart.

 

[Duckjake]

The article did say the contract made him one of the highest paid RB's in league history, exceeding the contract reigning MVP Shaun Alexander got. I agree about Drew, but the deal he got was top notch, so maybe they did not have to go anywhere else.

OK, i'm going back to the sidelines now.

Oh yes. The Golden Age of Cardinal player acquisitions:

Anquan Boldin, Gerald Hayes,Edgerrin James, Bertand Berry, Chike Okeafor, Kurt Warner, Larry Fitzgerald,Darnell Dockett, Karlos Dansby, Antrel Rolle.

Those were the days.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Are we still on topic, or is Chris_Sanders going to trash posts?

I believe I am going to step in and say quit beating the dead horse. This is a prime example of what I meant by not "winning an arguement".

Cheese, you said your peace, you don't need to rant for 8 pages.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I am declaring myself the winner and throwing down the mike.

No one won in a giant circular arguement where you dissect each other's statements.

 

[Bert]

If Kolb fails and Fitz leaves its no big deal.

Phoenix and Cardinal fans around the world are just fine with 5-11 seasons.

We've proved it for years.

Are you saying we're doormats???? Dude that's totally offends me bro!

Just because they sucked forever and I kept coming back for more

Just because our stadium sucked and they never won but I kept showing up for games

Just becasue I keep buying jerseys of guys who always leave the next year, yet I just keep doing it

Just because I always defend them and am rarely rewarded for it

Just cuz I never got to see my team in the playoffs but every year I would say; This is the year!

Just because no matter how many times they crush my hopes I just keep coming back for more....

So, that stuff doesn't make me a doormat! It doesn't! lol

(runs away and pouts; I'm not a doormat, I'm not!)

Ok fine, I'm a doormat, dangit!


I'm just messin around, you're right ofcourse, but I cant help it! Stupid Cardinals....

 

[joeshmo]

What does sitting on another 11 million the next season look like? NOT PAYING.

They are not sitting on 11 million. Cap set at 123 mill, Cards have actually already spent in total player salary over 123 mill. They have already spent 43+ more then they did last year, they have already spent more then approximately 20+ other teams in the NFL, so far. 11 mill is just funny money in this argument, it isn't real, it is purely an accounting term. Real world dollars they are not sitting on anything.

Only way you can say they are sitting on anything this year is if you expected them to spend 150 mill in player salary, but they are only at 130 mill in player salary. Then you can say they are sitting on money based on your own idea of what an NFL team should budget.

 

[Cheesebeef]

They are not sitting on 11 million. Cap set at 123 mill, Cards have actually already spent in total player salary over 123 mill. They have already spent 43+ more then they did last year, they have already spent more then approximately 20+ other teams in the NFL, so far. 11 mill is just funny money in this argument, it isn't real, it is purely an accounting term. Real world dollars they are not sitting on anything.

okay... for fear of being banned for continuing to respond to people who are quoting me, let me just ask you two questions Joe.

1) Do the cardinals have 11 million dollars they CAN spend to improve the team Joe?

2) Have they maximized the amount of money they can spend within the limits of the cap to improve what was one of the worst teams in all of football last year?

 

[Cardiac]

A lot has been said on this thread about the $30 or $40 million not spent last year, and I was wondering if anyone could clear up a couple of things in re: to this money.
1) Is it true that the Cardinals had made offers for the same or equal money to Dansby and Rolle? If so were they negotiating simultaneously w/ both or was one already signed before the other was made an offer?
2) How did the Rule of 8, or whatever it was called since we made the Final 8 in 2009, effect the ability to sign FA’s from other teams?
3) If we made fair offers to Dansby and Rolle and they walked because they wanted to be somewhere else, who should have we spent that money on and would it have been possible w/ the Rule of 8?? Looking at this list of 2010 FA’s there aren’t too many names that stand out that were UFA’s. Should we’ve just spent the money and over paid marginal players to not give the appearance of being cheap?
http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=1...&lnid=83&rc=16

It's a shame this post had to be repeated and only got once reponse. I for one would love to hear some other thoughts in addition to Cheese's.

I for one am not upset at the Cards for not spending money just to spend money for appearance sake.

Yes the Cards have an infamous history of being cheap and horrible in talent evaluation. Most of that is in the past, especially the cheap perception. Keep preaching joeshmo because many of us need to keep hearing the truth. We have had decades of being battered by the FO and it will take time to trust that things have changed for the better.

I want Fitz re-signed and know it will not only make him the highest paid WR in the league but probably top 5 players. 15 to 17 mil a year is not going to shock me in the least and if that is the case then cap room will come into play since RG has stated he has a couple more current players he wants to get extended this year.

 

[Mitch]

My issue is---when you are lacking in talent at certain positions, you do what it takes to acquire the talent.

The Ravens---who are up against the cap, needed a WR to compliment Q---they made the trade for Lee Evans.

The Eagles managed to sign several big name free agents---we signed NO big name free agents.

This is why the perception remains what it is for the Cardinals.

Look at what one big splash FA signing of Julius Peppers did for the Bears last year.

It sends a message to the team that the organization is serious about winning.

In a division where the Bears were looking up at the Packers and the Vikings---the moves they made, in addition to hiring the right OC for Jay Cutler in Mike Martz were able to win the division.

What gets harder and harder to accept as an excuse is the "well there weren't many options out there."

We have been hearing that for a few years now.

You have to have a FO that (a) knows how to build the talent of the team and (b) has the creativity and the determination to put the best possible product on the field.

The Cardinals' FO repeatedly falls short of delivering on both counts.

 

[Garthshort]

My feeling is that the Cards want to sign Larry Fitzgerald, w/o having to reconfigure any contracts, and then see where they stand cap wise. The ONE thing I learned from reading about 15 pages in this thread, is that Eugene Parker moves VERY SLOWLY. I didn't know that. And hearing that there is (supposedly) disagreement between whether the contract would be for four or five years, well that does impact the cap, so I guess it's important. How important? I have no idea.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

My issue is---when you are lacking in talent at certain positions, you do what it takes to acquire the talent.

The Ravens---who are up against the cap, needed a WR to compliment Q---they made the trade for Lee Evans.

The Eagles managed to sign several big name free agents---we signed NO big name free agents.

This is why the perception remains what it is for the Cardinals.

Look at what one big splash FA signing of Julius Peppers did for the Bears last year.

It sends a message to the team that the organization is serious about winning.

In a division where the Bears were looking up at the Packers and the Vikings---the moves they made, in addition to hiring the right OC for Jay Cutler in Mike Martz were able to win the division.

What gets harder and harder to accept as an excuse is the "well there weren't many options out there."

We have been hearing that for a few years now.

You have to have a FO that (a) knows how to build the talent of the team and (b) has the creativity and the determination to put the best possible product on the field.

The Cardinals' FO repeatedly falls short of delivering on both counts.

Trading for and signing Kolb was our 'Peppers' moment, which said that the Cards are serious about winning, and re-signing Fitz would be the exclamation point. You persist in ignoring the known efforts to acquire Edwards and Ndnambi (sp) and ignore what Joe has said about our actual expenditures this offseason. Further - the FA period isn't over.

 

[JeffGollin]

What are Wells' strengths besides the stiffarm?

He runs harder than any RB we have (other than the FB's - who seldom get more than a couple of touches per game).

Both LSH and Ryan Williams are more slasher-type guys with wiggle, and while both may prove to be tougher-than-expected between the tackles, neither are going to remind you very much of Brandon Jacobs.

Not that Beanie's fit that mold all that effectively either, but he does have the size and power. Plus - he's beginning to talk as though he "gets it" about needing to run with a lower pad level.

Our running game needs a pile-bender. If not Beanie; then who?

 

[Chris_Sanders]

My issue is---when you are lacking in talent at certain positions, you do what it takes to acquire the talent.

The Ravens---who are up against the cap, needed a WR to compliment Q---they made the trade for Lee Evans.

They weren't trading another high draft pick in the same draft. It goes against the organizations philosophy. You can beat your head against that wall for eternity but the Cardinals simply aren't a wheeling and dealing kind of team. Getting Kolb like they did was shocking. IMO, they should have just resigned Breaston. That being said, there are receivers on this team that can be "legitimate #2 WRs" (someone should nail down what exactly that means)

The Eagles managed to sign several big name free agents---we signed NO big name free agents.

The Cardinals upgraded the overall talent level of this team significantly.

This is why the perception remains what it is for the Cardinals.

I see nothing but positives coming from every national media outlet about the Cardinals. The only one's bashing our off season is our fans.

Look at what one big splash FA signing of Julius Peppers did for the Bears last year.

The Bears success last year was due to getting a QB and a system to work him in. They fell apart when the QB stopped performing.

It sends a message to the team that the organization is serious about winning.

Several players (including Larry) have already said they had never seen the organization so active in free agency. So...mission accomplished!

In a division where the Bears were looking up at the Packers and the Vikings---the moves they made, in addition to hiring the right OC for Jay Cutler in Mike Martz were able to win the division.

The Cardinals should be contending for an NFC West title this year, just like the Bears the year before.

You have to have a FO that (a) knows how to build the talent of the team and (b) has the creativity and the determination to put the best possible product on the field.

The Cardinals' FO repeatedly falls short of delivering on both counts.

What do you suggest would solve this?

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Eh I somewhat take back my comment that the Cardinals have upgraded the overall talent level of the team.

That is very subjective and I have some pretty rose colored glasses. We will see, but I can't see how we can be worse.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

He runs harder than any RB we have (other than the FB's - who seldom get more than a couple of touches per game).

Both LSH and Ryan Williams are more slasher-type guys with wiggle, and while both may prove to be tougher-than-expected between the tackles, neither are going to remind you very much of Brandon Jacobs.

Not that Beanie's fit that mold all that effectively either, but he does have the size and power. Plus - he's beginning to talk as though he "gets it" about needing to run with a lower pad level.

Our running game needs a pile-bender. If not Beanie; then who?

It seems unless unless Wells runs for 1500 yards and 17 TD's he'll be seen as a disappointment. People think Williams is great and should be starting after 5 carries in a pre-season game. I don't get it. I guess Stevan Ridley from NE will be the league MVP. Williams may turn out great. Wells may also. I hope they both do. Wells showed great promise , then was hurt, we'll see what he does this year. I think he'll run for about 1100 and have 10 TD's., but i've been wrong before(but i've also been right before too ).

 

[Shane]

It seems unless unless Wells runs for 1500 yards and 17 TD's he'll be seen as a disappointment. People think Williams is great and should be starting after 5 carries in a pre-season game. I don't get it. I guess Stevan Ridley from NE will be the league MVP. Williams may turn out great. Wells may also. I hope they both do. Wells showed great promise , then was hurt, we'll see what he does this year. I think he'll run for about 1100 and have 10 TD's., but i've been wrong before(but i've also been right before too ).

You are wrong way more than right most certainly when it comes to OSU talent. Ya homer!