Thoughts on Boldin and Trade Scenarios

[Mitch]

Boldin's Point of View: He wants to be paid what he's worth on the market right now. While Rod Graves made Boldin an extension offer (to Graves' credit) toward the end of last season that would make him one of the top 5 highest paid WRs in three years...it's the in three years part that isn't sitting well with Boldin...and this is understandable in the sense that Boldin's physcial all-out style of play could well lead to a career threatening injury at any point. If he doesn't get paid what he's worth now, he may not be able to collect on his current value later, unless the extension comes with acceptable guaranteed money.

In addition, it's no secret that teams like the Cowboys, Redskins and Eagles would love to acquire Boldin...and those teams have owners who are more than willing to put up big bucks for their superstar players.

Thus, as long as a trade would allow Boldin to get what he wants by way of a revised contract that will pay him this year and beyond what he's worth, virtually any player would want such a trade to happen.

The Cardinals' Point of View: They extended Boldin a couple of years back, and now he's signed through 2010. They were gracious enough to offer him another extension this past November that would eventually pay him his fair market value...but their proposal wasn't even responded to by Boldin's agent, Drew Rosenhaus. Now Rosenhaus, instead of dealing in good faith with the Cardinals, is doing what he is notorious for, he's brokering leverege through trade talk and media attention.

The Cardinals also have to be careful not to break precedents here with Boldin, because if they cave in to his and Rosenhaus' demands, that will cause a floodgate, as other veterans such as Adrian Wilson and Darnell Dockett might call the Cardinals on the carpet the way Boldin is now doing. Dockett has already been clamouring for a new deal, and his case has far less merit than Boldin's.

What Should the Cardinals Do?

Here are some of the logical options:

(1) Keep the status quo and hold all players to their current contracts.

(2) Keep working with Boldin to try to negotiate an extension (which may be a totally moot point if the Cardinals cannot pay Boldin what he wants in terms of immediate money).

(3) Listen to trade offers...for example...

Scenario A: The Cowboys offer WR Patrick Crayton (50/697/13.9/7) and the #22 and #84 picks.

Scenario B: The Redskins offer Antwaan Randle El (51/728/14.4/1) and the #21 and #80 picks.

The Reality Is:

The Cardinals are holding all the cards on this one. They re-signed Boldin in good faith, and at the time Boldin was happy. Now Boldin isn't. The Cards did show some flexibility in trying to work on an extension, but they really didn't have to do that, and maybe they shouldn't have because this just shows the other players that the Cards may acquiesce to players' demands.

When Boldin's contract is up in 2010, he will be 30 heading into the next season. With the pounding he issues forth and the pounding he takes, he may not be able to play many more years beyond 2010. At his age then, he may not be able to garner a big salary, particularly if injuries take their toll and/or his production drops.

Would it really be good business on the Cardinals' part to extend Boldin?

The best solution may be to have him play under his current contract for the next two years and if he maintains his health and productivity, rip up the old contract then (with one year remaining) and sign him to a lucrative three year deal that will keep him a Cardinal for his entire career.

As for Dockett and others who are disgruntled: Take a similar route...but don't let them believe that the Cards will rip up multi-year deals and redo them.

About the trade scenarios...as much as we all love Boldin, if such trade offers were made, I agree with Slandriac, it behooves the Cardinals to listen to what teams are offering and then assess whether a deal could make the Cards even stronger.

Case in point: suppose the Cards accept the deal with the Redskins...last year Randle El proved he is capable of being a very good #2, he would be re-united with Whiz who won a Super Bowl with him...and at #21 and #80 the team is able to add LB Quentin Groves and WR Andre Caldwell...which begs the question...would adding Randle El, Groves and Caldwell at the expense of losing Boldin make the Cardinals a better team? What do you think?

Or...how about a draft that looks like this;

#16: RB Jonathan Stewart, Oregon

#21: WR DeSean Jackson, California

#50: LB Cliff Avril, Purdue

#80: CB Charles Godfrey, Iowa

#81: G/T Mike McGlynn, Pittsburgh

#116: T Anthony Collins, Kansas

#149: DE Johnny Dingle, West Virginia

#185: CB Justin Tryon, Arizona St.

#225: K Garrett Hartley, Oklahoma

 

[RugbyMuffin]

What ever makes the team better.

I think the Redskins deal would be the best option, IF a trade needed to happen. Which I hope it does not.

 

[Mitch]

What ever makes the team better.

I think the Redskins deal would be the best option, IF a trade needed to happen. Which I hope it does not.

I was just think too that at #21, the Cards could take WR DeSean Jackson, the fastest WR in the draft. A burner opposite Larry Fitzgerald is what the Cards have needed to make this offense impossible to defend. Put Randle El in the slot, where Whiz knows how to use him to perfection, and wow, that would be one tough lineup to defend.

Pick up Stewart at #16...man o' man...add the OLB pass rusher in Cliff Avril at #50, and with two third round picks take CB Charles Godfrey of Iowa at #81 and an offensive lineman at #84 (Mike McGlynn, Jeremy Zuttah, Duane Brown, Tony Hills, Chad Rhinehart or Anthony Collins).

 

[Stout]

You know what? Much as I love the Q and his heart and his talent and his intensity, if he were sitting here whining about a new contract, I'd tell him one thing: try getting through a full year healthy and fully productive, THEN we'll talk. Good gravy, we love him and know he's good, but when's the last time he's done that? Is a hugely talented guy that can only manage to stay on the field 1/2 or 3/5 of a season really worth getting a hefty new contract so early? Sorry Q, but you are NOT a priority for a new contract right now.

 

[stewdog1]

You know what? Much as I love the Q and his heart and his talent and his intensity, if he were sitting here whining about a new contract, I'd tell him one thing: try getting through a full year healthy and fully productive, THEN we'll talk. Good gravy, we love him and know he's good, but when's the last time he's done that? Is a hugely talented guy that can only manage to stay on the field 1/2 or 3/5 of a season really worth getting a hefty new contract so early? Sorry Q, but you are NOT a priority for a new contract right now.

Unfortunately, I agree. If you average out his salary to games played, he is getting paid much higher per game.

The front office should be saying, have a big year of 16+ games and we'll talk.

 

[lobo]

Unfortunately, I agree. If you average out his salary to games played, he is getting paid much higher per game.

The front office should be saying, have a big year of 16+ games and we'll talk.

Congrats to all. All sensible non emotional comments by those above. We all love the guy but hey, how much more can they do? Wilson etc. would be at the doorstep after he is taken care of. At a certain point you just have to cut bait. I believe he will get an extension though. Gotta' admit that Graves believes and practices "straight talk" as much as possible.

 

[joko4]

Boldin's Point of View: He wants to be paid what he's worth on the market right now. While Rod Graves made Boldin an extension offer (to Graves' credit) toward the end of last season that would make him one of the top 5 highest paid WRs in three years...it's the in three years part that isn't sitting well with Boldin...and this is understandable in the sense that Boldin's physcial all-out style of play could well lead to a career threatening injury at any point. If he doesn't get paid what he's worth now, he may not be able to collect on his current value later, unless the extension comes with acceptable guaranteed money.

In addition, it's no secret that teams like the Cowboys, Redskins and Eagles would love to acquire Boldin...and those teams have owners who are more than willing to put up big bucks for their superstar players.

Thus, as long as a trade would allow Boldin to get what he wants by way of a revised contract that will pay him this year and beyond what he's worth, virtually any player would want such a trade to happen.

The Cardinals' Point of View: They extended Boldin a couple of years back, and now he's signed through 2010. They were gracious enough to offer him another extension this past November that would eventually pay him his fair market value...but their proposal wasn't even responded to by Boldin's agent, Drew Rosenhaus. Now Rosenhaus, instead of dealing in good faith with the Cardinals, is doing what he is notorious for, he's brokering leverege through trade talk and media attention.

The Cardinals also have to be careful not to break precedents here with Boldin, because if they cave in to his and Rosenhaus' demands, that will cause a floodgate, as other veterans such as Adrian Wilson and Darnell Dockett might call the Cardinals on the carpet the way Boldin is now doing. Dockett has already been clamouring for a new deal, and his case has far less merit than Boldin's.

What Should the Cardinals Do?

Here are some of the logical options:

(1) Keep the status quo and hold all players to their current contracts.

(2) Keep working with Boldin to try to negotiate an extension (which may be a totally moot point if the Cardinals cannot pay Boldin what he wants in terms of immediate money).

(3) Listen to trade offers...for example...

Scenario A: The Cowboys offer WR Patrick Crayton (50/697/13.9/7) and the #22 and #84 picks.

Scenario B: The Redskins offer Antwaan Randle El (51/728/14.4/1) and the #21 and #80 picks.

The Reality Is:

The Cardinals are holding all the cards on this one. They re-signed Boldin in good faith, and at the time Boldin was happy. Now Boldin isn't. The Cards did show some flexibility in trying to work on an extension, but they really didn't have to do that, and maybe they shouldn't have because this just shows the other players that the Cards may acquiesce to their demands.

When Boldin's contract is up in 2010, he will be 30 heading into the next season. With the pounding he issues forth and the pounding he takes, he may not be able to play many more years beyond 2010. At his age then, he may not be able to garner a big salary, particularly if injuries take their toll and/or his production drops.

Would it really be good business on the Cardinals' part to extend Boldin?

The best solution may be to have him play under his current contract for the next two years and if he maintains his health and productivity, rip up the old contract then (with one year remaining) and sign him to a lucrative three year deal that will keep him a Cardinal for his entire career.

As for Dockett and others who are disgruntled: Take a similar route...but don't let them believe that the Cards will rip up multi-year deals and redo them.

About the trade scenarios...as much as we all love Boldin, if such trade offers were made, I agree with Slandriac, it behooves the Cardinals to listen to what teams are offering and then assess whether a deal could make the Cards even stronger.

Case in point: suppose the Cards accept the deal with the Redskins...last year Randle El proved he is capable of being a very good #2, he would be re-united with Whiz who won a Super Bowl with him...and at #21 and #84 the team is able to add LB Quentin Groves and WR Andre Caldwell...which begs the question...would adding Randle El, Groves and Caldwell at the expense of losing Boldin make the Cardinals a better team? What do you think?

Mitch, I just hate this about Q, but this day was inevitable, Cards first. You are talking about Redskins and Cowboys in the hunt for Q. Remember, Q is so good that Redskins and Eagles will probably do everything they can to get Q themselves. Q and TO, will scare the rest of the NFC East. Let the bidding war begin!

 

[NeverSayDieFan]

Players come, Players go....

the nature of the beast, sadly. I've learned in recent years not to get too attatched to any one player. BUT I will root for whoever puts on that Cardinal uniform! That's one constant in this ever-changing universe!! GO CARDS!!

 

[cardsfanmd]

The Cardinals also have to be careful not to break precedents here with Boldin, because if they cave in to his and Rosenhaus' demands, that will cause a floodgate, as other veterans such as Adrian Wilson and Darnell Dockett might call the Cardinals on the carpet the way Boldin is now doing. Dockett has already been clamouring for a new deal, and his case has far less merit than Boldin's.

I hate to sound critical, but I think you are missing something here Mitch. The team is in this predicament because they already "broke predents" by caving into Fitz's demands. That is why everyone else is wanting so much now.

I called all of this two months ago. How much longer will you guys refute my logic? Q is either gonna get a monstous contract ASAP or he is gone. Dansby is gonna wanna be the highest paid LB in the game by a decent margin or he is gone. Dockett wants a busload of cash or he is gone. If it weren't for his injury we would be hearing more from ADub now as well.

All because of the pathetic way RG went about this Fitz situation.

 

[cardsfanmd]

the nature of the beast, sadly. I've learned in recent years not to get too attatched to any one player. BUT I will root for whoever puts on that Cardinal uniform! That's one constant in this ever-changing universe!! GO CARDS!!

Yup, thats about the only thing we can do.

 

[lobo]

All because of the pathetic way RG went about this Fitz situation.

In 25 words or less, since Graves was pathetic in dealing with this...you would have done what? Since I don't believe you were aware of all the dynamics of the situation which I would guess a handful insiders knew, make up a few in presenting your approach.

 

[Pariah]

If the team can't afford to pay him, deal him. Don't sit on a player that's unhappy. Get players in here that want to be here.

It'd break my heart. He's my favorite player...probably ever. But, IMO, the Cards gotta do what they gotta do.

 

[Mitch]

I hate to sound critical, but I think you are missing something here Mitch. The team is in this predicament because they already "broke predents" by caving into Fitz's demands. That is why everyone else is wanting so much now.

I called all of this two months ago. How much longer will you guys refute my logic? Q is either gonna get a monstous contract ASAP or he is gone. Dansby is gonna wanna be the highest paid LB in the game by a decent margin or he is gone. Dockett wants a busload of cash or he is gone. If it weren't for his injury we would be hearing more from ADub now as well.

All because of the pathetic way RG went about this Fitz situation.

Good point, cardsfanmd. But...Fitz's deal was so unique and outrageous financially, the Cards had no other choice...the whole intntion of Fitz's first deal was to get a new deal in place after year 4, which is exactly what happened.

You called it on Q...if Q holds out and this whole scenario gets out of control. He doesn't strike me as someone who would hold out, however. He has been regularly attending the off-season workouts. Q probably can't afford to sit out the whole year and pass up close to $3M by doing so...thus, he will probably realize that he will either have to accept an extension that pays him more later rather than sooner, or just play out the next three years and hope that some team will be willing to pay him the big bucks then.

If the Cards can get a lot for Boldin in a trade (if the Chiefs got the #17, #73 and #82 picks for Jared Allen...makes one wonder what the Cards might get for Boldin, if teams want him badly enough)...why not consider it?

 

[Mitch]

Yeah, I don't agree with Graves being pathetic at all here. Give the man credit where credit is due. He re-signed Boldin to the deal he's got now; a deal that clearly works in the Cardinals' favor at this point...AND...Graves did offer Boldin an extension that would make him one of the top 5 highest paid WRs in three years or so. That's dealing in very good faith.

 

[football karma]

food for thought:

from 2002 to 2005 ( I have used these years as it gives at least three years for players to be fully evaluated):

39 WRs were drafted in rounds 1 and 2

Of those 39-- 6 have made at least one pro bowl; of those only 3 have made more than one pro-bowl. Interestingly, two of them are Fitz and Boldin. You could put another 5 or so into the "very productive player" category.

So-- the odds of drafting a productive WR in rounds one or two are about 1 in 4, or 25%. The odds of drafting a pro-bowl type WR are 15%. Interestingly, the first round only odds of getting a pro-bowler are about 25% -- but it should be noted that 3 of the 4 pro-bowlers drafted in round 1 came from the top 10 of the draft.


So -- getting picks just doesnt compensate for what the team is giving up. The odds say that you are far more likely to get "just a guy" than a very productive player. As I said in the Allen thread -- trading pro-bowl caliber players for a few draft picks doesnt make your team better.

 

[Mitch]

food for thought:

from 2002 to 2005 ( I have used these years as it gives at least three years for players to be fully evaluated):

39 WRs were drafted in rounds 1 and 2

Of those 39-- 6 have made at least one pro bowl; of those only 3 have made more than one pro-bowl. Interestingly, two of them are Fitz and Boldin. You could put another 5 or so into the "very productive player" category.

So-- the odds of drafting a productive WR in rounds one or two are about 1 in 4, or 25%. The odds of drafting a pro-bowl type WR are 15%. Interestingly, the first round only odds of getting a pro-bowler are about 25% -- but it should be noted that 3 of the 4 pro-bowlers drafted in round 1 came from the top 10 of the draft.


So -- getting picks just doesnt compensate for what the team is giving up. The odds say that you are far more likely to get "just a guy" than a very productive player. As I said in the Allen thread -- trading pro-bowl caliber players for a few draft picks doesnt make your team better.

Excellent point, en fuego. But, this trade, I guarantee you, will make the Chiefs better, unless they totally screw up this draft. They are going to likely be able to draft DE Vernon Ghoulston, who could be a real dandy (and gives them an immediate replacement for Allen)...then they get to add three more players at #17, #73 and #84. The Chiefs will be, as they say, loading the wagons!

 

[football karma]

Excellent point, en fuego. But, this trade, I guarantee you, will make the Chiefs better, unless they totally screw up this draft. They are going to likely be able to draft DE Vernon Ghoulston, who could be a real dandy (and gives them an immediate replacement for Allen)...then they get to add three more players at #17, #73 and #84. The Chiefs will be, as they say, loading the wagons!

well-- it may be three years before Chief fans will know conclusively.

On one hand, I really beleive that you build your team through the draft.

On the other hand, I think you need to look objectively at the odds of players working out.

In the first round at #17 -- its 50/50 that the player they pick will be productive. Its about 1/5 that it will be a probowler.

By the third round -- about 1 in 5 of those picks turns out to be a productive NFL player after three years. Probowl type players are maybe 1 in 20 or something from the third round.

I see the Chiefs trading a certainty in Allen for the equivalent of three lottery tickets. Now--as stated in another post, Allen's personal situation may be a motivator for Carl Peterson (how many recovering alcholics do you know actively run a sports bar? how many would think thats a good idea?)

 

[joeshmo]

I hate to sound critical, but I think you are missing something here Mitch. The team is in this predicament because they already "broke predents" by caving into Fitz's demands. That is why everyone else is wanting so much now.

I called all of this two months ago. How much longer will you guys refute my logic? Q is either gonna get a monstous contract ASAP or he is gone. Dansby is gonna wanna be the highest paid LB in the game by a decent margin or he is gone. Dockett wants a busload of cash or he is gone. If it weren't for his injury we would be hearing more from ADub now as well.

All because of the pathetic way RG went about this Fitz situation.

Dont agree with that logic at all becuase the timeline does not line up to your idea. Dockett, Wilson, and Dansby all had these contract ideas months before Fitz got his deal. We all heard and read the comments from Wilson and Dockett during the season. Dansby wanted Pace type money the day Pace called Dansby about it. About a month before they so called caved into Fitz demands. Boldin turned down two different offers, one during the season when they offered to raise his base salary by 2 Mill. per season remaining on his deal, of which he told them I am going to wait for Fitz deal.

The team was in this predicament way before the Fitz deal and the timeline proves that.

 

[SMAC]

The Cardinals will deal Boldin if they can get a deal like this: Boldin to Philadelphia for Lito Shepperd, Reggie Brown, the Eagles #1 and #3. The Cardinals then get a top corner in Shepperd, pickup a starting receiver or a replacement for Johnson in Brown, another #1 and an additional number #3. The Cards could then take a RB and defensive player in the first round, a receiver in round two, a corner and defensive lineman in round 3.

 

[Totally_Red]

Trading Q?

IMO, Rod Graves is handling this situation correctly. Drew Rosenhaus is being Drew Rosenhaus. Trading Anquan Boldin at this point is not only dumb, it is assinine. The Cardinals have one overwhelming strength and that is possessing TWO, count 'em, TWO pro-bowl receivers. That is why the passing attack has been THE strength of this team for the past few years. It has been relatively potent, in spite of a woeful running game. Any Fox or CBS broadcast crew covering the Cardinals mentions the two pro-bowl receivers as the strength of the team.

If you aren't serious about trading your very best player, you really shouldn't listen to trade offers for that player. The draft is a crap shoot while Anquan Boldin is a dedicated and proven commodity.

The Cardinals IMO, are a team on the rise, and not a team like the Chiefs who are in rebuilding mode. It behooves the Cardinals to retain their star players who in the prime of their NFL careers. Those players include Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald, Karlos Dansby and Adrian Wilson.

IF the situation deteriorates, then the Cardinals may need to reconsider. But for now, they should concentrate on the draft and forget trading Anquan Boldin.

 

[40yearfan]

food for thought:

from 2002 to 2005 ( I have used these years as it gives at least three years for players to be fully evaluated):

39 WRs were drafted in rounds 1 and 2

Of those 39-- 6 have made at least one pro bowl; of those only 3 have made more than one pro-bowl. Interestingly, two of them are Fitz and Boldin. You could put another 5 or so into the "very productive player" category.

So-- the odds of drafting a productive WR in rounds one or two are about 1 in 4, or 25%. The odds of drafting a pro-bowl type WR are 15%. Interestingly, the first round only odds of getting a pro-bowler are about 25% -- but it should be noted that 3 of the 4 pro-bowlers drafted in round 1 came from the top 10 of the draft.


So -- getting picks just doesnt compensate for what the team is giving up. The odds say that you are far more likely to get "just a guy" than a very productive player. As I said in the Allen thread -- trading pro-bowl caliber players for a few draft picks doesnt make your team better.

Absolutely right. Apparently people would rather gamble on an unknown than keep what we know is good. I think this trade talk is completely out of whack. Our WR corp is not broke. Don't fix it.

 

[cardsfanmd]

In 25 words or less, since Graves was pathetic in dealing with this...you would have done what? Since I don't believe you were aware of all the dynamics of the situation which I would guess a handful insiders knew, make up a few in presenting your approach.

I am not a GM, and have never claimed to be one. I am not a painter either, but if I hired one to paint a room in my house and they did a poor job I would be able to notice.

I dont feel like digging through the archives, but Fitz ended up with practically the same contract that he was originally reported requesting. The Cards came over about 80% whereas he may have given 20% to make the compromise IIRC.

That was like 50 words, my bad.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Dont agree with that logic at all becuase the timeline does not line up to your idea. Dockett, Wilson, and Dansby all had these contract ideas months before Fitz got his deal. We all heard and read the comments from Wilson and Dockett during the season. Dansby wanted Pace type money the day Pace called Dansby about it. About a month before they so called caved into Fitz demands. Boldin turned down two different offers, one during the season when they offered to raise his base salary by 2 Mill. per season remaining on his deal, of which he told them I am going to wait for Fitz deal.

The team was in this predicament way before the Fitz deal and the timeline proves that.

Normally when you and I disagree I just chalk it up to me being wrong.

However, I disctinctly remember you posting a response to me in another thread a while back stating that I was misinformed or lying about Dockett wanting a new deal. You then quoted him saying during the season that he wanted to work so hard that the team would want to tear up his current contract and reward him with a new one. You cant play on both sides of the fence Joe.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Yeah, I don't agree with Graves being pathetic at all here. Give the man credit where credit is due. He re-signed Boldin to the deal he's got now; a deal that clearly works in the Cardinals' favor at this point...AND...Graves did offer Boldin an extension that would make him one of the top 5 highest paid WRs in three years or so. That's dealing in very good faith.

What is pathetic is that we have a line of unhappy core players standing in front of Rod Graves' desk.

Dansby, Boldin, Wilson, Dockett, and I am sure there is more to come. Add Green and A.Smith to the list and you are really looking at the entire team.

Unfortunately, being a engineer with a yacht company I have no answers on how to handle the situation. But I do expect our GM of football operations to have answers. Furthermore, I am in complete shock that Boldin, who is the face of this franchise, who is the captain of the team is upset enough to want out of AZ.

I agree, that Graves did what he could with Fitzgerald, but there is no denying the fact it was embarrassing to see it take so long.

Now you have core players putting it out in the press that they are not happy.

Graves and his turtle like approach to dealing with these players has gotten old.

The captain and a good number of your core players are unhappy with the team. Don't be telling me that the Cardinals are doing a good job when it is apparent your core players are unhappy with the direction the organization is going in.

I am not saying the players are not being ridiculous with their contract situation, but the situation is what it is. And what it is, is a bad situation.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

The Cardinals will deal Boldin if they can get a deal like this: Boldin to Philadelphia for Lito Shepperd, Reggie Brown, the Eagles #1 and #3. The Cardinals then get a top corner in Shepperd, pickup a starting receiver or a replacement for Johnson in Brown, another #1 and an additional number #3. The Cards could then take a RB and defensive player in the first round, a receiver in round two, a corner and defensive lineman in round 3.

Yeah... I'm sure the Cards would trade Q for a disgruntled corner, with injury issues... who wants a new contract... and at best, a no. 3 receiver.

Both of these players are being shopped by Philly: NO THANKS!