Tim Thomas Don't Re-sign...

[S_Nash]

This offseason, I hope that the coaching staff and Nash will try and train either Diaw or Barbosa at being more effective at the PG positon. Diaw's the better passer, while Barbosa is the quickest. If they could play Steve Nash-esque PG time, while Nash himself is on the bench, that would help their chances come playoff time dramatically

 

[George O'Brien]

Tomorrow is the fourth anniversary of Marion signing the extension of his contract - leading to four years of proposals to trade him.

With Marion's contract the issue has always been the same. Do you want to give him away to clear the cap space? That is probably the best you can hope for without throwing in lots of other players and picks or taking back bad contracts - giving him away.

Waiting a year would make it easier to give him away because it would leave only a couple of years on his contract. But I would not expect to get much for him due to his contract. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I find it unreasonable to take the position that Marion is grossly overpaid AND that there is a big market for him.

My read on it is that the Suns will get lots of offers of bad contract players, though maybe some with shorter duration. But for healthy star players? Those deals would have to be inspite of him rather than because he's being offered.

Why am I so down on Marion's market value after two all star seasons? The problem is that he's not a good half court player in a league with very few real running teams. The whole point of opponents trying to slow down the Suns is to keep Marion from finishing on the break -- which is why he gets a bad rap for his playoff performrances.

The bottom line is that it really doesn't matter whether the Suns SHOULD trade Marion, they just won't because they won't get serious offers.

 

[panfolk]

Tomorrow is the fourth anniversary of Marion signing the extension of his contract - leading to four years of proposals to trade him.

With Marion's contract the issue has always been the same. Do you want to give him away to clear the cap space? That is probably the best you can hope for without throwing in lots of other players and picks or taking back bad contracts - giving him away.

Waiting a year would make it easier to give him away because it would leave only a couple of years on his contract. But I would not expect to get much for him due to his contract. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I find it unreasonable to take the position that Marion is grossly overpaid AND that there is a big market for him.

My read on it is that the Suns will get lots of offers of bad contract players, though maybe some with shorter duration. But for healthy star players? Those deals would have to be inspite of him rather than because he's being offered.

Why am I so down on Marion's market value after two all star seasons? The problem is that he's not a good half court player in a league with very few real running teams. The whole point of opponents trying to slow down the Suns is to keep Marion from finishing on the break -- which is why he gets a bad rap for his playoff performrances.

The bottom line is that it really doesn't matter whether the Suns SHOULD trade Marion, they just won't because they won't get serious offers.

Good post!

 

[Covert Rain]

The player that needs to be moved is KT. That will give us a starting 5 of Diaw, Amare, Marion, Bell, Nash, with TT, Barbosa, and Jones off the bench. That team looks pretty damb good. Moving KT gives us alot of flexability this coming year, and maybe explore moving Marion the following year if need be. Maybe try moving KT with a pick to move up in the draft for a C or PG. I also would not mind moving Jones if that would help keep TT around at the mle range. Keep in mind when Diaw and Barbosas extensions kick in Grant, Burk, and House will all be off the books. I think keeping Marion is a must and would rather see KT and Jones hit the road. With that starting 5 and TT and Barbosa off the bench that is what I would like to see happen.

Why would you move the second best rebounder and defender on the team? Diaw is a good offensive player but doesn't rebound or defend that well. You can't get rid of Kurt unless you have a player of his caliber to replace him on your roster. Diaw should come off the bench.

 

[George O'Brien]

No one cares, but I think Boris is the ideal backup for Nash. I'd prefer D'Antoni figured this out early so the Suns would work on it over the summer rather than wait until mid season.

Why Boris? Look at the point guards in the draft and ask if any of them are:

1. Proven ball handler with over 6 assists a game from the post.

2. Proven outside shooter and averaged 18.7 ppg on 52.2%.

3. Great at posting up smaller opponents (which is what he'd be matched with at PG).

4. Big enough to guard PFs, so he can certainly match up against the bigger guards.

5. Has the length to bother outside shooters (was considered a defensive specialist in Atlanta).

6. A decent rebounder (8.5 rpg against the Mavs), he'd give the Suns an added rebounder on the defensive end.

I would expect Boris to play inside a lot, but he has the ability to become a superstar at the point someday.

 

[Ryanwb]

No one cares, but I think Boris is the ideal backup for Nash. I'd prefer D'Antoni figured this out early so the Suns would work on it over the summer rather than wait until mid season.

Why Boris? Look at the point guards in the draft and ask if any of them are:

1. Proven ball handler with over 6 assists a game from the post.

2. Proven outside shooter and averaged 18.7 ppg on 52.2%.

3. Great at posting up smaller opponents (which is what he'd be matched with at PG).

4. Big enough to guard PFs, so he can certainly match up against the bigger guards.

5. Has the length to bother outside shooters (was considered a defensive specialist in Atlanta).

6. A decent rebounder (8.5 rpg against the Mavs), he'd give the Suns an added rebounder on the defensive end.

I would expect Boris to play inside a lot, but he has the ability to become a superstar at the point someday.

The Hawks tried to make him a point guard, it didn't work

 

[Evil Ash]

I stated prior that any deal will probably be after next season. Also it wouldnt make me cry to see a starting lineup of "Amare, Diaw, Marion, Bell, and Nash." I'm just saying we have players to develop and a financial side to consider at some point. Marions 15 mill is hard to ignore even if we win a championship with him next season. The NBA is always about thinking ahead and developing players and getting the best team the owner can afford.

Any trade involving Marion would get us something good in return. It probably wouldnt be equal value back but it wouldnt have to be considering the makeup of our team.

Worry about what will happen after next season, AFTER NEXT SEASON. There is no need to trade him now so why worry about it?

I know people are pissed off at his playoff performances but the whole we need to get rid of Marion NOW crap is tiring.

 

[panfolk]

No one cares, but I think Boris is the ideal backup for Nash. I'd prefer D'Antoni figured this out early so the Suns would work on it over the summer rather than wait until mid season.

Why Boris? Look at the point guards in the draft and ask if any of them are:

1. Proven ball handler with over 6 assists a game from the post.

2. Proven outside shooter and averaged 18.7 ppg on 52.2%.

3. Great at posting up smaller opponents (which is what he'd be matched with at PG).

4. Big enough to guard PFs, so he can certainly match up against the bigger guards.

5. Has the length to bother outside shooters (was considered a defensive specialist in Atlanta).

6. A decent rebounder (8.5 rpg against the Mavs), he'd give the Suns an added rebounder on the defensive end.

I would expect Boris to play inside a lot, but he has the ability to become a superstar at the point someday.

I don't know what the variables are but there are a lot of good passers that don't work out as point guards. Dwyane Wade and Lebron James were both forced into the role briefly and found better success at their more natural positions. For some reason my tivo didn't pick up the SAS game where Diaw supposedly guarded Parker. I've heard he did ok, but you gotta imagine forcing yourself to the speed of smaller guys is nearly as taxing as trying to defend seven footers. Mismatches on switches can be easily exploited but playing that way indefinitely is most likely a bear.

 

[Silverbullet]

Sorry Steeldog but I do think Amare will more than make up for what we loose in KT. I do believe this will be the only way to keep Marion and resign Boris and Leandro. I also think Jones could be delt to help with signing TT. I understand your thoughts on KT, he is a great defender and good rebounder. But not at the expense of loosing Marion and resigning Boris and Leandro. Just my opinion.

 

[panfolk]

Worry about what will happen after next season, AFTER NEXT SEASON. There is no need to trade him now so why worry about it?

I know people are pissed off at his playoff performances but the whole we need to get rid of Marion NOW crap is tiring.

It's very tempting to want to consider all the options and then get focused on a handfull or even one of them. There are many ways to improve the team and trading Marion this summer isn't likely one of them considering D'As wishes. It does get tiring.

 

[George O'Brien]

The Hawks tried to make him (Boris) a point guard, it didn't work

Nor was Nash when he first started.

Let's be clear, the Hawks were and are an awful team. Playing point on a team of selfish idiots is not the way to showcase one's PG talents.

Maybe it wouldn't work, but the same can said for most PG prospects. However, if it did work, Boris would be a major force.

BTW, I'd love to get a good point guard in the draft, I'm just not convinced it will happen.

 

[pokerface]

Why am I so down on Marion's market value after two all star seasons? The problem is that he's not a good half court player in a league with very few real running teams. The whole point of opponents trying to slow down the Suns is to keep Marion from finishing on the break -- which is why he gets a bad rap for his playoff performrances.

The bottom line is that it really doesn't matter whether the Suns SHOULD trade Marion, they just won't because they won't get serious offers.

Wont get serious offers?? Then why is Chad Ford hyping up Marion telliing other teams fans they arnt getting him? You're way off the mark George. Marion is a valuable commodity....his stat line is almost legendary...right up there with Garnetts. And I dont totally buy he's a product of any system because his numbers have been huge his entire career. Sure he played with fastbreak artists like Kidd and Nash but he still put up good numbers with Marbury as well whos style was much different. Marbury was more of a half court pg. Other team fans inquire about Marion all the time...he's wanted believe me. He's a current allstar in his prime putting up great numbers. A lot of coaches would love to plug Marion into their system...he does a lot of things well....on both sides of the ball I might add. Of course he has his weaknesses but they are FEW.

 

[nowagimp]

No one cares, but I think Boris is the ideal backup for Nash. I'd prefer D'Antoni figured this out early so the Suns would work on it over the summer rather than wait until mid season.

Why Boris? Look at the point guards in the draft and ask if any of them are:

1. Proven ball handler with over 6 assists a game from the post.

2. Proven outside shooter and averaged 18.7 ppg on 52.2%.

3. Great at posting up smaller opponents (which is what he'd be matched with at PG).

4. Big enough to guard PFs, so he can certainly match up against the bigger guards.

5. Has the length to bother outside shooters (was considered a defensive specialist in Atlanta).

6. A decent rebounder (8.5 rpg against the Mavs), he'd give the Suns an added rebounder on the defensive end.

I would expect Boris to play inside a lot, but he has the ability to become a superstar at the point someday.

If Boris played the point against faster, smaller players, I expect he would turn the ball over alot more. Opposing teams would make him dribble alot trying to establish low post position and then double him and strip him as he makes his move. This process would cause the suns offense to slow down alot(too much dribbling by someone other than Nash). Another alternative might be to use Leo to provide the penetration and dump it to Boris in the low post where he can pass or shoot over his smaller man. The problem with using Boris at the point is that his footspeed is not good enough to get around a quick one or two, so he will have to back them down if he is holding the dribble. I do think that Leo and Boris can be sued to spell Nash, but it will be with Leo providing the penetration, unless Boris' man is a 4 or 5 and Boris can receive the ball at the elbow. Boris footspeed is good enough to take almost any 4 or 5 off the dribble, as we have seen.

The reason that Nash can get away with alot of dribbing is that he, unlike almost any NBA player, can pass at any moment left or right handed, right off the dribble, or not. Nash also can penetrate the defense at will with few turnovers.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

No one cares, but I think Boris is the ideal backup for Nash. I'd prefer D'Antoni figured this out early so the Suns would work on it over the summer rather than wait until mid season.

Why Boris? Look at the point guards in the draft and ask if any of them are:

1. Proven ball handler with over 6 assists a game from the post.

2. Proven outside shooter and averaged 18.7 ppg on 52.2%.

3. Great at posting up smaller opponents (which is what he'd be matched with at PG).

4. Big enough to guard PFs, so he can certainly match up against the bigger guards.

5. Has the length to bother outside shooters (was considered a defensive specialist in Atlanta).

6. A decent rebounder (8.5 rpg against the Mavs), he'd give the Suns an added rebounder on the defensive end.

I would expect Boris to play inside a lot, but he has the ability to become a superstar at the point someday.

No, he really doesn't.

1. His outside shot is not that good, he can only make it consistently off the catch and when nobody is guarding him. I can't remember the last time I saw Diaw create and make his own perimter shot.

2. He's not nearly quick enough laterally to guard most PGs in this league, guys like Tony Parker, Devin Harris, and Shaun Livingston would drive right by him at will.

3. His ball handling is fine for a guy playing the post, but when you play the Suns sytem you handle the ball a lot. You have to bring it up court with your eyes up and drive the lane. Boris has not shown the handles to do that throughout a game that superstar PGs do.

4. I'll give you matching up against bigger, slower PGs but how many of those play for our competition?

5-6. Yes, he can do those things. But so can Shawn Marion or Richard Jefferson and any number of other SFs throughout the NBA.

Diaw is a SF or a PF and that's where he should be utilized, a much better and athletic version of Luke Walton where you can run your offense through him at the elbow. Having Diaw bring the ball up the court, set thing up from the perimter, and guard faster guys that are half his size would simply be a waste of his talent.

 

[elindholm]

No, he really doesn't.

1. His outside shot is not that good, he can only make it consistently off the catch and when nobody is guarding him. I can't remember the last time I saw Diaw create and make his own perimter shot.

2. He's not nearly quick enough laterally to guard most PGs in this league, guys like Tony Parker, Devin Harris, and Shaun Livingston would drive right by him at will.

3. His ball handling is fine for a guy playing the post, but when you play the Suns sytem you handle the ball a lot. You have to bring it up court with your eyes up and drive the lane. Boris has not shown the handles to do that throughout a game that superstar PGs do.

4. I'll give you matching up against bigger, slower PGs but how many of those play for our competition?

5-6. Yes, he can do those things. But so can Shawn Marion or Richard Jefferson and any number of other SFs throughout the NBA.

Diaw is a SF or a PF and that's where he should be utilized, a much better and athletic version of Luke Walton where you can run your offense through him at the elbow. Having Diaw bring the ball up the court, set thing up from the perimter, and guard faster guys that are half his size would simply be a waste of his talent.

Thank you.

 

[Zobaczcie suki]

Wont get serious offers?? Then why is Chad Ford hyping up Marion telliing other teams fans they arnt getting him? You're way off the mark George. Marion is a valuable commodity....his stat line is almost legendary...right up there with Garnetts. And I dont totally buy he's a product of any system because his numbers have been huge his entire career. Sure he played with fastbreak artists like Kidd and Nash but he still put up good numbers with Marbury as well whos style was much different. Marbury was more of a half court pg. Other team fans inquire about Marion all the time...he's wanted believe me. He's a current allstar in his prime putting up great numbers. A lot of coaches would love to plug Marion into their system...he does a lot of things well....on both sides of the ball I might add. Of course he has his weaknesses but they are FEW.

 

[Errntknght]

George O, "No one cares, but I think Boris is the ideal backup for Nash."

I gotta go with Nowagimp & Mao on this one George. Boris at one elbow and Amare at the other plus our perimeter shooters is going to be such a devastating offense that even Barbosa will be able to run it. Of course, things might go awry, so I still think we need to get a backup point.

 

[George O'Brien]

If the criteria is that the Suns need a point guard who can defend against hyperspeed point guards, then point taken. I've noticed that most of the point guards being hyped are not considered very good defenders, so I'm not sure the Suns would lose much defensively compared to Nash at PG.

In any case, Boris is big enough to match up against SG's, so it is not necessarily the case that he'd have to defend Parker - but Parker would have either him or Bell.

As for whether Boris would get picked clean playing point is an interesting question. It did not appear that switching small guys on him was that effective during the playoffs. If quick defenders could pick him clean I'd have thought we would have seen more of it. What I did see was Boris driving and posting up little guys like they weren't there.

Would he slow things down? I don't see why. Nash is not the quickest guy in the world, what matters is pace and Boris runs just fine.

BTW, I suspect rather than PG, we'll see him more at the high post. The key will be how the offense evolves.

 

[Joe Mama]

Wont get serious offers?? Then why is Chad Ford hyping up Marion telliing other teams fans they arnt getting him? You're way off the mark George. Marion is a valuable commodity....his stat line is almost legendary...right up there with Garnetts. And I dont totally buy he's a product of any system because his numbers have been huge his entire career. Sure he played with fastbreak artists like Kidd and Nash but he still put up good numbers with Marbury as well whos style was much different. Marbury was more of a half court pg. Other team fans inquire about Marion all the time...he's wanted believe me. He's a current allstar in his prime putting up great numbers. A lot of coaches would love to plug Marion into their system...he does a lot of things well....on both sides of the ball I might add. Of course he has his weaknesses but they are FEW.

Shawn Marion has a great stat line. The system helps those numbers, but he would be getting good numbers wherever he went. Here's the problem with him though. Every other player you've mentioned here, especially someone like Kevin Garnett, can create his own offense. You can't give Shawn Marion the basketball and say, "carry us." You should be able to do that when you are paying someone $16 million unless you have an owner who laughs at the luxury tax. This is what will scare off some other teams or at least keep their offers from getting too lucrative.

Joe

 

[pokerface]

Shawn Marion has a great stat line. The system helps those numbers, but he would be getting good numbers wherever he went. Here's the problem with him though. Every other player you've mentioned here, especially someone like Kevin Garnett, can create his own offense. You can't give Shawn Marion the basketball and say, "carry us." You should be able to do that when you are paying someone $16 million unless you have an owner who laughs at the luxury tax. This is what will scare off some other teams or at least keep their offers from getting too lucrative.

Joe

Maybe so, but a message to all Suns fans is we shouldnt downplay Marions value too much. For George to say we wouldnt get serious offers for Marion is going too far. Very few players put up Marion type numbers. Plus his overall game makes him more adaptable than people think. He doesnt just do fastbreaks....He rebounds, steals, and plays solid D. Plus his personality would let him adapt to almost any system...he can play with stars without being THE star. He wouldnt disrupt team chemistry which would be a plus to a lot of teams that already have star power.

 

[George O'Brien]

Maybe so, but a message to all Suns fans is we shouldnt downplay Marions value too much. For George to say we wouldnt get serious offers for Marion is going too far. Very few players put up Marion type numbers. Plus his overall game makes him more adaptable than people think. He doesnt just do fastbreaks....He rebounds, steals, and plays solid D. Plus his personality would let him adapt to almost any system...he can play with stars without being THE star. He wouldnt disrupt team chemistry which would be a plus to a lot of teams that already have star power.

Obviously the issue is what is meant by "serious". Most of the discussion has been about guys who are all star caliber. Sure you can get three "nice" players, but that is not the path to a championship. Most fan discussion involve the Suns giving up at least Barbosa and a bunch of picks to get someone even close to Marion's skill level. My guess is that every real offer will insist on Boris, which is just unreasonable.

Sadly the most reasonable offer the Suns might get would be in a salary dump to the Bulls. I don't know that it would matter, but Marion played well for Skiles when he was the Suns coach. Still, I don't think this gets the Suns closer to a ring.

 

[pokerface]

Dump Marion to the Bulls for whateva....Why didnt I think of that?! Thanks George...for a second there you had me convinced we couldnt get anything good for Shawn. What a relief!

 

[George O'Brien]

Dump Marion to the Bulls for whateva....Why didnt I think of that?! Thanks George...for a second there you had me convinced we couldnt get anything good for Shawn. What a relief!

I'm not in favor of it, but I'm not convinced we can have it both ways - getting a strong contributor AND substantial cap relief. When Eric suggest the KG deal, at least he doesn't try to sell it on the basis of reducing salaries (not having to pay Barbosa would save some down the road, but KG is very expensive).

The case for a pure dump is only valid if you believe Marion is terribly overpaid and getting the trade exemption would mean the Suns could get less expensive guys to do the job. I'm not sure that's possible, but it is far from illogical if you think Marion is terribly overpaid.

I think he is somewhat overpaid, but he has tremendous value to the Suns - more than he would to almost any other team. My feeling is that it is extremely unlikely trading Marion would help the team, but I know hope springs eternal.

 

[Covert Rain]

Sorry Steeldog but I do think Amare will more than make up for what we loose in KT. I do believe this will be the only way to keep Marion and resign Boris and Leandro. I also think Jones could be delt to help with signing TT. I understand your thoughts on KT, he is a great defender and good rebounder. But not at the expense of loosing Marion and resigning Boris and Leandro. Just my opinion.

How would Amare make up for it? Kurt was brought in to add to what Amare already had because what he had wasn't enough the year before. Boris Diaw adds something offensively but not on the boards or on defense. So basically you would be adding more offense....which this team doesn't need in the starting lineup.

This team needs more defense not offense in the starting rotation. We have enough money to resign Boris and Leandro. So for me it comes down to Tim Thomas or Kurt Thomas. I would love to keep Tim but not if that means hurting this team defensively and losing more rebounding. The last two years have shown that we need more not less of that.

Hopefully, Tim is more interested in a title then money. Cause if we could get him to resign for less then market to win a title, that would be huge. If not, let him go.