TJ Warren now

[SirStefan32]

This is a fascinating discussion! I think that contracts have to be a part of the equation, but it would be interesting to look at it both ways, with and without considering the contract. Another added complexity is figuring out the fit with the team. Covington, for example, would be ideal for a team like Cleveland. Warren might fit better with a team like San Antonio or Golden State, though those teams have better options at their positions. Figuring out a formula for that is impossible, though.

 

[3rdside]

Nerd fight!!!!!!

I’ll take that as a compliment [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Raze]

This is a fascinating discussion! I think that contracts have to be a part of the equation, but it would be interesting to look at it both ways, with and without considering the contract. Another added complexity is figuring out the fit with the team. Covington, for example, would be ideal for a team like Cleveland. Warren might fit better with a team like San Antonio or Golden State, though those teams have better options at their positions. Figuring out a formula for that is impossible, though.

Yep. Because there's no formula to art. And that's what being a GM or a coach is about, art. In art, there are hundreds of different colors to choose from and millions of combos to try.

But a good artist knows what colors to combine and how to lay them out so that it's a thing of beauty.
And a good art critic knows good art when they see it.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I take it "Open my mind to richer ways of thinking" was not one of your New Year's resolutions. Oh well, there's always hope for 2019.

It’s just a hilarious conversation! Can you imagine the Suns players reading this? They would crack up.

Listen, I get it. Family full of engineers here and then there is my brother in law. We both have PhD’s in the same academic area. So you should see the family eye rolls at the Thanksgiving table conversation between us.

I have a hunch we are all more nerds than athletes here and we spend hours a week posting on Suns board. ESPN should really tap into this market—nerds talking sports. It would be so much more interesting to watch to guys argue about which players are better based upon various mathematical formulas than the Stephen A Smith stuff we are being fed.

Carry on. Enjoy the discussion.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Yep. Because there's no formula to art. And that's what being a GM or a coach is about, art. In art, there are hundreds of different colors to choose from and millions of combos to try.

But a good artist knows what colors to combine and how to lay them out so that it's a thing of beauty.
And a good art critic knows good art when they see it.

But this is SPORTS! It’s not about art, it’s about WINNING! yYou have to have a score of some kind.

 

[3rdside]

Yep. Because there's no formula to art. And that's what being a GM or a coach is about, art. In art, there are hundreds of different colors to choose from and millions of combos to try.

But a good artist knows what colors to combine and how to lay them out so that it's a thing of beauty.
And a good art critic knows good art when they see it.

McD seems to have a knack for writing good value contracts - Warren, IT, Morris brothers and maybe even Bledsoe - so credit where credit’s due, but as a roster synergy artist he fails miserably; anyone that couldn’t work out:

- Earl Watson was a clown
- The Morris Brother’s were rabble rousers
- That point guard / pocket sized agitator IT wouldn’t upset the successful Dragic-Bledsoe tandem
- Big centres are out of vogue
- Shooting % is in vogue

Needs to have serious questions asked of them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[3rdside]

*and thought Brandon Knight would be a good addition to the team, for a first round pick from the lakers no less.

Not that we need to be reminded but if I’m not mistaken, it’s looking like this pick will convey top 5 this year.

In a deep draft.

For Brandon GD Knight.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[3rdside]

Lakers pick update - it's only going to convey for picks 2-5 this year but is unprotected outside of the #1 pick next year:

2018 first round draft pick to Philadelphia or Boston
L.A. Lakers' 2018 1st round pick to Philadelphia (via Phoenix) or to Boston (via Phoenix to Philadelphia) protected for selections 1 and 6-30; if this pick falls on any of its protected selections and is therefore retained by Philadelphia, then Boston will instead receive the more favorable of Philadelphia's 2019 1st round pick protected for selection 1 and Sacramento's 2019 1st round pick protected for selection 1 (via Philadelphia) and Philadelphia will receive the less favorable or the protected of these two picks [L.A. Lakers-Phoenix, 7/11/2012; Milwaukee-Philadelphia-Phoenix, 2/19/2015; Philadelphia-Sacramento, 7/9/2015; Boston-Philadelphia, 6/19/2017]; the 2019 pick conveyance is included in "2019 first round draft pick from Philadelphia or Sacramento" on Boston Incoming

 

[Raze]

But this is SPORTS! It’s not about art, it’s about WINNING! yYou have to have a score of some kind.

Obviously you can quantify wins.

It's impossible to quantify a person.

I'll give you an example. Back in 2002 Curt Schilling and Randy Johnson were dominant pitchers. So who should have won the MVP? Randy had a slight edge on the numbers, which led him to win the award.

However, Randy mostly kept to himself. While dominant himself, he never directly made anyone else around him better.

Curt, on the other hand, was constantly helping other players with their game. Numerous pitchers credit Curt for all the insight he gave them to hone their craft. So in essence, Curt made everyone else around him better.

So Randy's numbers were dominant, but Curt made everyone else better while still having slightly less dominant numbers. So which one was more vital to the team's success?

*Back to the Suns.

I was at the Philly game. While everyone else was watching the time out entertainment I was watching the bench. Namely Tyson Chandler. That guy is coaching up a storm. During one time out he and Devin were engaged in this deep discussion on the intricacies of a play. It looked like they were talking about how to react to Philly's D on the pick and roll, but I couldn't hear of course. A few plays later, Tyson set a screen for Devin and instead of driving like he had been he jab stepped, made the defender hesitate, and drilled a 3. After the play Philly called a TO and Devin went up and shugged Tyson. They both had massive smiles on their face, but Devin's face was saying "you were right" while Tyson's was saying "I told you so". It was a cool thing to witness. Tyson, for example, is bringing a whole lot more to the team than just rebounds and defense.

You can look at the numbers exclusively but you might miss out on the beauty of relationships.

 

[Phrazbit]

What pick would Covington or ariza get?

Congratulations on posing a question that ends up losing your own argument.

Covington, as a guy who is locked into a good contract and whom, based on age, shouldn't decline over the length of it, would probably fetch a good return. Ariza? As a 32 year old on the final months of his contract and who's career has been varied between solid role player and sub-replacement, I doubt he'd get more than a 2nd round pick in return.

Warren, his age, his production, his contract... he is a legit asset. RPM is useful to an extent but it is really hard to judge a guy who gets to play along side several all-stars vs guys like Warren and Booker, who are playing next to dudes who wouldn't see the court on remotely decent teams. It makes their jobs significantly harder on both ends.

That stat LOVES Dudley over Booker and Warren... does anyone who has watched a moment of this team buy that as anything but horse crap?

 

[Errntknght]

There's 301 players in the NBA; the 50th ranked player by PER is in the top 17% of players.


I don't know where you get 301 players league wide - that's 10 for each of 30 teams. 476 players have played more than 0 minutes this season and there are 450 players active at almost any time - 15 per team.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Lakers pick update - it's only going to convey for picks 2-5 this year but is unprotected outside of the #1 pick next year:

2018 first round draft pick to Philadelphia or Boston
L.A. Lakers' 2018 1st round pick to Philadelphia (via Phoenix) or to Boston (via Phoenix to Philadelphia) protected for selections 1 and 6-30; if this pick falls on any of its protected selections and is therefore retained by Philadelphia, then Boston will instead receive the more favorable of Philadelphia's 2019 1st round pick protected for selection 1 and Sacramento's 2019 1st round pick protected for selection 1 (via Philadelphia) and Philadelphia will receive the less favorable or the protected of these two picks [L.A. Lakers-Phoenix, 7/11/2012; Milwaukee-Philadelphia-Phoenix, 2/19/2015; Philadelphia-Sacramento, 7/9/2015; Boston-Philadelphia, 6/19/2017]; the 2019 pick conveyance is included in "2019 first round draft pick from Philadelphia or Sacramento" on Boston Incoming

It’s going to convey. The only question is whether it will convey to Philly or Boston this year.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Obviously you can quantify wins.

It's impossible to quantify a person.

I'll give you an example. Back in 2002 Curt Schilling and Randy Johnson were dominant pitchers. So who should have won the MVP? Randy had a slight edge on the numbers, which led him to win the award.

However, Randy mostly kept to himself. While dominant himself, he never directly made anyone else around him better.

Curt, on the other hand, was constantly helping other players with their game. Numerous pitchers credit Curt for all the insight he gave them to hone their craft. So in essence, Curt made everyone else around him better.

So Randy's numbers were dominant, but Curt made everyone else better while still having slightly less dominant numbers. So which one was more vital to the team's success?

*Back to the Suns.

I was at the Philly game. While everyone else was watching the time out entertainment I was watching the bench. Namely Tyson Chandler. That guy is coaching up a storm. During one time out he and Devin were engaged in this deep discussion on the intricacies of a play. It looked like they were talking about how to react to Philly's D on the pick and roll, but I couldn't hear of course. A few plays later, Tyson set a screen for Devin and instead of driving like he had been he jab stepped, made the defender hesitate, and drilled a 3. After the play Philly called a TO and Devin went up and shugged Tyson. They both had massive smiles on their face, but Devin's face was saying "you were right" while Tyson's was saying "I told you so". It was a cool thing to witness. Tyson, for example, is bringing a whole lot more to the team than just rebounds and defense.

You can look at the numbers exclusively but you might miss out on the beauty of relationships.

I really feel bad about eliciting this long and careful response. My remark was tongue in cheek . Obviously I was not obvious enough about that.

 

[3rdside]

I have a real skill at getting basic things wrong - it’s uncanny ... and it’s rarely the detail, just the basics.

I typed in ‘How many players in the NBA’ and it said 301...I just didn’t read further to realise that’s how many there used to be. And no I didn’t stop to do the math, but who gives an old answer in their response to a question first though? It’s not what I asked!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SirStefan32]

*Back to the Suns.

I was at the Philly game. While everyone else was watching the time out entertainment I was watching the bench. Namely Tyson Chandler. That guy is coaching up a storm. During one time out he and Devin were engaged in this deep discussion on the intricacies of a play. It looked like they were talking about how to react to Philly's D on the pick and roll, but I couldn't hear of course. A few plays later, Tyson set a screen for Devin and instead of driving like he had been he jab stepped, made the defender hesitate, and drilled a 3. After the play Philly called a TO and Devin went up and shugged Tyson. They both had massive smiles on their face, but Devin's face was saying "you were right" while Tyson's was saying "I told you so". It was a cool thing to witness. Tyson, for example, is bringing a whole lot more to the team than just rebounds and defense.

You can look at the numbers exclusively but you might miss out on the beauty of relationships.

Thanks for sharing that!

 

[elindholm]

Wait... The Knight/Laker pick went (or may go) from Philadelphia to Boston as part of the Fultz/Tatum deal? So Boston may have gotten Tatum and that pick for Fultz?

That's a franchise-defining trade. Now I'm wondering how Ainge pulled it off.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Wait... The Knight/Laker pick went (or may go) from Philadelphia to Boston as part of the Fultz/Tatum deal? So Boston may have gotten Tatum and that pick for Fultz?

That's a franchise-defining trade. Now I'm wondering how Ainge pulled it off.

It's going to Boston if it is 2-5. Which it might well be. Danny Ainge had a good summer. He also got Kyrie Irving for an injured Isaiah Thomas and a pick he got in that horrible Celtics/Nets trade.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/05/nba...klyn-nets-kevin-garnett-paul-pierce-breakdown

Oh. And he signed Gordon Hayward.

There has to be a little bit of luck to it. I think he really wanted Josh Jackson, but felt he could not take him when Josh canceled his interview.

 

[elindholm]

It's going to Boston if it is 2-5. Which it might well be. Danny Ainge had a good summer. He also got Kyrie Irving for an injured Isaiah Thomas and a pick he got in that horrible Celtics/Nets trade.

Yeah, that's a whole host of good moves. He was in the right position to take advantage of incompetent leadership in other organizations, especially Prokhorov.

Oh. And he signed Gordon Hayward.

We'll have to see how that turns out. Hayward never got above semi-star status in Utah. I've watched him a fair amount and he seems to be too passive. I wonder if he'll end up being a sixth man, the kind of guy who captains a strong second unit and figures out a way to be on the floor in crunch time.

There has to be a little bit of luck to it.

There was no way to know how valuable the Laker pick would prove to be, but I think a good rule of thumb should be, "Does this move run the risk of being such a blunder that it sets my franchise back for 15 years?" Had McDonough used that standard, he never would have made the Knight trade.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Yeah, that's a whole host of good moves. He was in the right position to take advantage of incompetent leadership in other organizations, especially Prokhorov.



We'll have to see how that turns out. Hayward never got above semi-star status in Utah. I've watched him a fair amount and he seems to be too passive. I wonder if he'll end up being a sixth man, the kind of guy who captains a strong second unit and figures out a way to be on the floor in crunch time.



There was no way to know how valuable the Laker pick would prove to be, but I think a good rule of thumb should be, "Does this move run the risk of being such a blunder that it sets my franchise back for 15 years?" Had McDonough used that standard, he never would have made the Knight trade.

I am sure he assumed the pick would have conveyed long ago. The Lakers got lottery lucky but could not improve. I am sure he thought they would reload with free agents and be right back in it. Many of us thought that too.

Also, if Brandon Knight had been any kind of good, we would have had his services for three years already.

It was just the worst case scenario on both ends.

 

[devilalum]

Nerd fight!!!!!!

Actually I think it’s one of the more sound debates we currently have going on the board.

Is Warren a genuinely good player or just another “good” player on a bad team.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk