Trade Marion

[slinslin]

Maybe Shawn Marion has to become our shooting guard "technically".
If he can't then we should probably try to trade him in a package to get someone who can hold down the SG postion well.

Right now I would say that we have 4 players set.

Marbury and Barbosa at PG.

Zarko at SF and Amare at PF.

Everything else is gravy.

White/Voshkul/???
Amare/ ???
Zarko/Johnson
Marion/ Jacobsen
Marbury/Barbosa


Pieces that don't fit?

-Penny because with Marion playing as a SG most of the time there wouldn't be more than 10 minutes available for Penny and coming off of the bench at SF I would much rather have Joe Johnson because of youth, size, length and defense.
-Williams is too old.
-Googs is done.
-Marion if he doesn't work well in a lineup with Marbuy at PG, Zarko at SF and Amare at PF.

With Penny's contract getting shorter and his minutes getting less in that scenario they probably should negotiate a buyout like the Nets did with Mutombo because I don't think having Penny Hardaway riding the bench and play 8 mpg would never work.

We have some sources to fill our needs.

Googs expiring contract. Our likely lottery pick that would probably be a good idea to use as trade bait with a little protection.

Would Washington trade Kwame Brown, Jared Jeffries and Christian Laettner for Tom Gugliotta and our 2004 draft pick without protection and the Cavs lottery protected pick?

Don't know.

But it would give us

Kwame/White/Voshkul
Amare/Laettner
Zarko/Jeffries
Marion/Johnson/Jacobsen
Marbury/Barbosa

Though we would still have Penny, but Marbury, Marion and Barbosa would definately tkae 90% of the available minutes for Penny.

 

[slinslin]

Originally posted by Errntknght

IMO, it's not impossible for Marion to play up to his contracted salary... it's going to take a coach that makes him play closer to the hoop than he's doing now. And gets he and Amare playing off each other. Doing that will require a high-post center - which fits well with Marbs game since he works best off high screens. Obviously, Bryan wasn't thinking in those terms when he brought in Jahidi White... which is typical of his efforts. It's nice to have a bruiser like Jahidi on the team so it was okay from that point of view but he doesn't really fill the bill at center for this team. Should Zarko beef up enough to play in the frontcourt with Shawn and Amare we'd have an offensive powerhouse as he brings just what you need in a high post man.

I don't see Marion working out as a SG whereas Zarko might... Marbury's game pretty much dictates a SG with good playmaking skills and Shawn just doesn't have it. I suppose we could say that Marion was the SG and Z was the SF but the latter would still be the secondary playmaker. I'd put it this way, if we start seeing a lot of Zarko on the floor, it will probably be JJ who takes the big hit in playing time. Well, either that or lots of small ball...

I think you are completely wrong.

Marbury requires a SG who can shoot not someone who can make plays.
Marbury will makes almost all plays on the perimeter anyway and get his teammates open jumpshots.

Marbury is one of the best players in the entire league at handling the ball and penetrating, his backcourt shouldn't do the same things that Marbruy does.

Michael Redd, Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, Allan Houston those types of players would be good backcourt partners for Marbury.
Marion has proven that he is good enough shooter to fill that role.

If Marion played closer to the hoop offensively the Suns would have even worse spacing then before. Marion has become a shooter and they need him to shoot to space the floor well.

They can't have Marbury penetrating, Marion playing close to the hoop and Amare playing close to the hoop and expect to beat a zone defense.

The Suns center position lacks one ingredient. A consistant starter.

We have Jahidi White to battle physical centers, Voshkul to give energy and hustle but what we could use would be a Marcus Camby, Tyson Chandler, Kwame Brown type of player at center who can start every game and give valueable minutes every game.

 

[newfan101]

Originally posted by slinslin
I think you are completely wrong.

Marbury requires a SG who can shoot not someone who can make plays.
Marbury will makes almost all plays on the perimeter anyway and get his teammates open jumpshots.

Marbury is one of the best players in the entire league at handling the ball and penetrating, his backcourt shouldn't do the same things that Marbruy does.

Michael Redd, Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, Allan Houston those types of players would be good backcourt partners for Marbury.
Marion has proven that he is good enough shooter to fill that role.

If Marion played closer to the hoop offensively the Suns would have even worse spacing then before. Marion has become a shooter and they need him to shoot to space the floor well.

They can't have Marbury penetrating, Marion playing close to the hoop and Amare playing close to the hoop and expect to beat a zone defense.

The Suns center position lacks one ingredient. A consistant starter.

We have Jahidi White to battle physical centers, Voshkul to give energy and hustle but what we could use would be a Marcus Camby, Tyson Chandler, Kwame Brown type of player at center who can start every game and give valueable minutes every game.

I agree. The Suns need shooters to spread the floor at SG and small forward. The SG type you suggested is right on, IMO. If Zarko can come back healthy and show that he can be a starting caliber player at small forward, I think management will have to consider moving Marion for either a shooting guard or a big man during the offseason.

If Marion could be used to bring in an athletic, long big man (like a Chandler or PJ Brown type), I would be all for that.

 

[slinslin]

Or why can't we accept that Marion has become a shooter since his rookie season and play him like one?



http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=192002

Although I have been disappointed with Eddy Curry this season I think I would be very tempted if we could trade Marion for Curry + @.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by slinslin

Would Washington trade Kwame Brown, Jared Jeffries and Christian Laettner for Tom Gugliotta and our 2004 draft pick without protection and the Cavs lottery protected pick?

I don't know if they would but Suns technically can't since they owe a protected 1st to SAS.

 

[George O'Brien]

Would Washington trade Kwame Brown, Jared Jeffries and Christian Laettner for Tom Gugliotta and our 2004 draft pick without protection and the Cavs lottery protected pick?

I'm not interested in Jeffreys. He is only 230 pounds and is shooting just 34.6% this year. His game is too much like Zarko's, but he is not as good. Plus, he is under contract though 06/07.

Christian Laettner has a well deserved reputation for being an "under achiever" and really, really slow. He has another year on his contract at $6.1 million.

K Brown's numbers are up a little this year. 8.3 ppg v 7.4 ppg a year ago; 6.1 rpg v 5.3 rpg a year ago. At least some of this is due to playing about 3 minutes a game more. He has two more years on his contract at $5.31 next year and $6.7 million in 05/06.

This deal would lock the team into several years with playes who have generally under performed. It works if K. Brown is ready to be a superstar, but otherwise it doesn't. It all but precludes going into the free agent market.

 

[elindholm]

Right now I would say that we have 4 players set.

Marbury and Barbosa at PG.

Zarko at SF and Amare at PF.

Come on. I can't believe you're ready to anoint Barbosa and Cabarkapa as permanent members of the core after having watched them play less than 100 minutes each in the NBA. That is just completely unrealistic.

Or why can't we accept that Marion has become a shooter since his rookie season and play him like one?

Because he simply doesn't shoot well enough to be "a shooter" on a good team.

 

[George O'Brien]

I don't want Shawn shooting 3's. He is pretty good at hiitting runners and can shoot over many defenders in close with his leaping ability. The key is to get him into position where he can do what he does best.

By the way, this is not "hanging around the basket". Shawns rebounds generally come when he flys in from the outside - just not too far outside.

 

[slinslin]

I just wanted to say that those 4 seem to have clean cut positions in the future of this team.

Barbosa is locked in as the backup PG already, he definately proved that to me in limited time.

Zarko definately looks like he can fill the SF spot.


Marion shot 45%FG and 39%3pts on last years team when the main complaint was that he was too much of a shooter.

I think that qualifies as a good shooter on a good team.

If you have someone who shoots almost 40% from the 3pt line than you want him to shoot them. Especially when he is your best shooter.

 

[George O'Brien]

Shawn has not been shooting well from the outside this year. At first it may have been due to him spending too much time in the weight room and not enough shooting.

Now, I think it is more fundimental. Shawn does OK shooting when totally wide open. But like JJ, he is not a good shot from the outside when contested and without Amere, the perimeter shooters are contested by matchup zones. This may mean his outside shooting will come back, but it misses the point -- great shooters are not easily distracted by defenders.

 

[slinslin]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
I'm not interested in Jeffreys. He is only 230 pounds and is shooting just 34.6% this year. His game is too much like Zarko's, but he is not as good. Plus, he is under contract though 06/07.

Christian Laettner has a well deserved reputation for being an "under achiever" and really, really slow. He has another year on his contract at $6.1 million.

K Brown's numbers are up a little this year. 8.3 ppg v 7.4 ppg a year ago; 6.1 rpg v 5.3 rpg a year ago. At least some of this is due to playing about 3 minutes a game more. He has two more years on his contract at $5.31 next year and $6.7 million in 05/06.

Jared Jeffries would play SF. He is under contract through 06/07, so what? He is signed to a cheap rookie contract.

I have no doubt that he can ba a good backup at SF and share minutes with Cabarkapa.
At 6'11 Jeffries gives size at the 3 spot.

Laettner is an underachiever? That might be true, but he is no worse than Googs and you have to take on some salaries to make the trade work under the cap.

Kwame Brown is 6'11-7' has a great mix of size, strength and athleticism and definately shows flashes that he could be a Jermaine O'Neal if he gets into a new situation.

Even if he would just maintain he would improve our big man rotation by a lot.

Without a doubt I think this trade would make the Suns a much bigger team but also a much better shooting team.

I also read that the luxury tax will soon be abolished.

This trade would definately costs the Suns more money.

But which road do you want to go? Spend more money and win more or spend less money win less games, have less interesst in the team and lose more money because of that?

It is not like this move would cripple the Suns because they get a cheap contract in Jeffries, 2 medium contracts (which the Suns currently don't really have) in Laettner and Brown that aren't long.

So it is not like they trade Googs for Brian Grant or something like that.

 

[slinslin]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
Shawn has not been shooting well from the outside this year. At first it may have been due to him spending too much time in the weight room and not enough shooting.

He is heating up lately and he hasn't gotten as much 3s as last year.
I already assumed this before but I think that Shawn's numbers are partially down because they want him to go more inside than last season when he isn't good at that really.

 

[matt_whitlock]

Christian Laettner has a well deserved reputation for being an "under achiever" and really, really slow.

That doesn't really make any sense. If he is bad, he's bad because he's really, really slow. So, if he hasn't achieved much, it because of his physical limitations. He had those as a rookie, and even more so as his career has progressed.

Just because people thought he was going to be good doesn't mean he is an underachiever. He simply doesn't have the athletic or phyiscal prowess that is needed to be a good power forward in the NBA. That's not his fault, though.

 

[creed]

Originally posted by slinslin

Barbosa is locked in as the backup PG already, he definately proved that to me in limited time.

Zarko definately looks like he can fill the SF spot.

And you're "definately" jumping the gun. Yes Zarko and Barbosa are showing indicators of being able to fill their positions but hardly have we seen they are ready to handle the load now. I mean you're judging Zarko on a few games....Marion has had some monster games and people are talking about cutting his salary. So if Marions games havent proved anything than neither have Zarkos. Everyone has to prove themselves.

Plus Barbosa is like king of turnovers or something...not a good trait when you're supposed to be a PG.

 

[slinslin]

He is a rookie PG look at the other leaders in turnover per 48 minutes... Marcus Banks, TJ Ford, Raul Lopez, Allen Iverson, Paul Pierce, Steve Blake, Earl Watson, Steve Nash, Andre Miller. Lebron James, Steve Francis, Luke Ridnour, Dwayne Wade, Tim Duncan, Charlie Ward, Lamar Odom, Jason Kidd, Jason Terry, Frank Williams, Keith Van Horn and some others....

All in the top 25 in turnovers per 48 minutes.

Barbosa has impressed me in his few minutes. He plays very good defense, he races down the court and he has a clear cut postion as a PG

I just named the players that I think have a clear position in this teams future.

Shawn Marion doesn't in my opinion because he seems undersized at SF and we don't know if he can move to SG succesfully.

 

[George O'Brien]

I already assumed this before but I think that Shawn's numbers are partially down because they want him to go more inside than last season when he isn't good at that really.

Actually, his numbers went up once they put him at PF. Obviously he is not a low post player, but he does well with short jumpers and runners.

That doesn't really make any sense. If he (Christian) is bad, he's bad because he's really, really slow. So, if he hasn't achieved much, it because of his physical limitations. He had those as a rookie, and even more so as his career has progressed.

I stand corrected.

Kwame Brown is 6'11-7' has a great mix of size, strength and athleticism and definately shows flashes that he could be a Jermaine O'Neal if he gets into a new situation.

Maybe. I guess I would have to wonder why the Wizzards would dump him if he is on the verge of being great. In any case, I doubt the Wizzards would admit they screwed up on back to back lottery picks in making a pure salary dump.

 

[slinslin]

Shawn Marion isn't really playing PF. He might defend a PF more often now but he isn't playing PF.

Since Amare is out Shawn is averaging like 5 3pt attempts per game.

Before Amare injured his ankle Shawn took a total of 38 3pt attempts (15 games 26% made), 3 attempts in the game that Amare was injured and 39 (8 games 37% made) after that.

That seems to prove that he is playing more on the perimeter again rather than closer to the hoop like you indicated.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by slinslin

This trade would definately costs the Suns more money.

But which road do you want to go? Spend more money and win more or spend less money win less games, have less interesst in the team and lose more money because of that?

The suns payroll this year is 6th highest in the NBA at just under 66 million. If you take away googs expiring contract, that number will stay in that area (actually it will go up a bit most likely). A team that shares its fan base with 4 professional sports, spread over a large area just cant sustain that unless their owner is willing to spend to no end. If we were winning, the Cs might consider it acceptable.


BTW, in 2008-2009 we have $38,297,595 in committed salaries. The only two players under contract are Steph and Shawn.

Look at it this way though, in the summer of 2009 we will have like 40 million dollars comming off of our payroll. That better push us under the cap!

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

BTW, another reason why Michael Redd is one of my favorite players.

He makes 3 million a year. Every year until 2005/2006

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
BTW, another reason why Michael Redd is one of my favorite players.

He makes 3 million a year. Every year until 2005/2006

Come on, we all know the reason you like Redd this because he does well for your fantasy team.

Joe Mama

 

[slinslin]

Man I am watching the Mavs-Clips right now, the Clips are really fun to watch and are so much improved.

I wish we could have Q-Rich or Magette. Well Q-Rich will be RFA I guess.

I just wish the Suns would have straight rotations instead of 8 players playing out of position for half of the time.

Edit: Man did Magette become good , he should be an allstar. Would you still draft Marion like the Colangelos did or draft Magette like everyone else thought?

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
I know I sound like a broken record, but Shawn Marion will never be worth a maximum contract if he has to guard the other team's small forward night in and night out.

Joe Mama

Against the Rockets, I thought Marion came pretty close to earning his keep. His block of Yao's shot was a thing of beauty.

I think the switch to more man defense is helping Shawn, even if it means guarding bigger players. He is not leaving people open after double teaming, which is where the Suns get into trouble.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
Come on, we all know the reason you like Redd this because he does well for your fantasy team.

Joe Mama

Heh, that may be one of the reasons =) He was my one good questionable pick. 17 points and 9 boards tonight, and he wasn't mentioned as the player of the game on sportsline

Honestly though, can you imagine what shape the bucks would be in if they didn't match his offer sheet? Or how ridiculous the Mavs would be?

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
Heh, that may be one of the reasons =) He was my one good questionable pick. 17 points and 9 boards tonight, and he wasn't mentioned as the player of the game on sportsline

Honestly though, can you imagine what shape the bucks would be in if they didn't match his offer sheet? Or how ridiculous the Mavs would be?

Oh, I definitely like Michael Redd. I've been talking about how well he would fit with Marbury's penetration for 2-3 years now. I remember when Ray Allen went down I picked him up on my fantasy team, and he put them over the top.

I was just giving you a hard time.

How about Dan Gadzuric? I like the way Casey Jacobsen's been playing lately, but the Suns would sure look a lot better right now with Gadzuric or Carlos Boozer. Oh well. Hindsight is 20/20.

Joe Mama

 

[elindholm]

How about Dan Gadzuric? I like the way Casey Jacobsen's been playing lately, but the Suns would sure look a lot better right now with Gadzuric or Carlos Boozer.

Actually, Boozer has been awful his last four games, so maybe his magic is wearing off. And I don't think Gadzuric is strong enough to survive in the Western Conference. I don't really like Jacobsen, but he has impressed me with his progress this season.