Chaplin
Better off silent
Gadzuric has been less than average this year--much worse than last year. Believe me, I thought he'd be a steal in the fantasy leagues. Boy, was I wrong.
Trade Marion
- Thread starter AnotherHOMER
- Start date
He has been fantastic so far for my two teams in the hoops.ws league. He's got to be averaging 2.2 fpm.
Last season he averaged 3.4 points on 48% shooting , 4 rebounds, and 1 block in 15 minutes per game. This season he is averaging 7.9 points on 54% shooting, 6 rebounds, and 2 blocks per in 20 minutes per game.
I really do like the improvement we are seeing from Casey Jacobsen, but with the Phoenix Suns' current frontcourt predicament I think Gadzuric or Carlos Boozer would be much more valuable.
I can understand why the Phoenix Suns did not draft either of those guys. They wanted to things out of the draft that year. They wanted a power player, and they got him in Amare Stoudemire. They also wanted a good shooter. He's showing improvement this season, up to 42.3% so far this year from 37.3% from the field last season. He's shooting 41.3% from behind the three-point arc this year.
The guy I wanted was Tayshaun Prince.
Joe Mama
elindholm
edited for content
I can't remember whom I wanted the Suns to draft with that pick -- I do remember that I was disappointed with Jacobsen at the time -- but I'm glad they didn't take Prince. In my opinion Prince is extremely overrated. Everyone got all excited about his postseason last year, but if you look at the numbers, it really wasn't that good. And he certainly hasn't shown that he's ready for a significant role this year.
slinslin
Welcome to Amareca
Back to the topic, another fantasy proposal
Abdur Rahim and Ratliff are both rumored to be avaialable.
Marion, Hardaway, Trybanski, Archibald and Clevelands pick for Abdur Rahim, Ratliff and Diaw.
Ratliff
Amare
SAR
JJ
Marbury
Bench; Zarko, Diaw, Barbosa, Jacobsen, Voshkul, Williams, White
Abdur Rahim and Ratliff are both rumored to be avaialable.
Marion, Hardaway, Trybanski, Archibald and Clevelands pick for Abdur Rahim, Ratliff and Diaw.
Ratliff
Amare
SAR
JJ
Marbury
Bench; Zarko, Diaw, Barbosa, Jacobsen, Voshkul, Williams, White
elindholm
edited for content
Marion, Hardaway, Trybanski, Archibald and Clevelands pick for Abdur Rahim, Ratliff and Diaw.
Great for the Suns, but why would Atlanta do it? Surely they can get more than Marion, a draft pick, and a huge salary burden in exchange for Abdur-Rahim.
Great for the Suns, but why would Atlanta do it? Surely they can get more than Marion, a draft pick, and a huge salary burden in exchange for Abdur-Rahim.
OP
OP
AnotherHOMER
Registered User
Man, I gotta disagree. Prince is bad. Tall, LAnkey, and knows how to score. Remember he was a rookie last year. What rookie did you know that was facing up on veterans last year and taking it the hole? Very suprised to see that. He will be a great player.
I would MUCH rather have Prince then Jacobsen.
-****
elindholm
edited for content
Tall, LAnkey, and knows how to score.
If he knows how to score, why doesn't he do it? He scores less than 11 points per game in 36 minutes, and his team is desperate for scoring.
Remember he was a rookie last year.
He came into the league at 22 and turned 23 by the end of the season. Now he'll be 24 in two months. That is quite old for a second-year player; I wouldn't count on him getting dramatically better.
What rookie did you know that was facing up on veterans last year and taking it the hole?
I'll bet most Suns fans can think of at least one. And it's not like small forwards in the Eastern Conference are exactly a murderer's row.
I would MUCH rather have Prince then Jacobsen.
I certainly don't love Jacobsen, but I think he is a better fit for these Suns, and he seems more likely to improve than Prince.
If he knows how to score, why doesn't he do it? He scores less than 11 points per game in 36 minutes, and his team is desperate for scoring.
Remember he was a rookie last year.
He came into the league at 22 and turned 23 by the end of the season. Now he'll be 24 in two months. That is quite old for a second-year player; I wouldn't count on him getting dramatically better.
What rookie did you know that was facing up on veterans last year and taking it the hole?
I'll bet most Suns fans can think of at least one. And it's not like small forwards in the Eastern Conference are exactly a murderer's row.
I would MUCH rather have Prince then Jacobsen.
I certainly don't love Jacobsen, but I think he is a better fit for these Suns, and he seems more likely to improve than Prince.
George O'Brien
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Prince would not be a good fit. The Suns have a lot of guys who can [indeed SHOULD] go to the basket. The Suns took Jacobsen to be their Steve Kerr/John Paxton type role player. He struggled last year but his shooting has picked up a lot and his overall game is not that bad.
thegrahamcrackr
Registered User
Lol Slin, I was actually thinking about SAR last night as well. It was just to cold in my house to get out of bed and figure something out.
I was more thinking along the lines of SAR to phx, Marion to Chicago and Curry plus salary relief to Atlanta.
Haha Joe, I know you were giving me a hard time. I just have to gloat about my one good pick as often as I can.
I do love Michael Redd, and he would be the perfect SG for this team. Unfortunately, I cannot imagine he will ever be available in a trade from Mil, especially considering how cheap he is. Maybe in 2006 when he contract is up, but he would most likely demand a near max extension.
I was more thinking along the lines of SAR to phx, Marion to Chicago and Curry plus salary relief to Atlanta.
Haha Joe, I know you were giving me a hard time. I just have to gloat about my one good pick as often as I can.
I do love Michael Redd, and he would be the perfect SG for this team. Unfortunately, I cannot imagine he will ever be available in a trade from Mil, especially considering how cheap he is. Maybe in 2006 when he contract is up, but he would most likely demand a near max extension.
Originally posted by slinslin
Man I am watching the Mavs-Clips right now, the Clips are really fun to watch and are so much improved.
I wish we could have Q-Rich or Magette. Well Q-Rich will be RFA I guess.
I just wish the Suns would have straight rotations instead of 8 players playing out of position for half of the time.
Edit: Man did Magette become good, he should be an allstar. Would you still draft Marion like the Colangelos did or draft Magette like everyone else thought?
The only players on the Phoenix Suns that play out of position now are Joe Johnson and Shawn Marion when they are asked to cover the 4. That's because Zarko Cabarkapa and Amare Stoudemire are injured. I suspect we will see more traditional lineups when they get back.
Quentin Richardson is no better than Joe Johnson. The only difference is that Richardson throws up more shots and does not pass the ball as well. JJ is probably a better defender also. He's on my fantasy basketball team. Like JJ he either shoots the ball well, or he can't find the basket at all. He's shooting 38.8 % from the field this season.
Corey Maggette is doing well, but I would much rather have Shawn Marion. In fact if you could forget about their salaries I'm not sure there is a GM and the NBA that would take him over the Matrix.
Joe Mama
slinslin
Welcome to Amareca
I watched the game and didn't even notice Richardson was shooting poorly.
He gave so much energy, attacked the boards, got beautiful tip-ins and Magette made very nice drives took the fouls and still finished with beautiful layups.
Magette is averaging roughly 21ppg 6rpg 3apg 1spg and 47%FG and plays only 35mpg. He ranks 2nd in the NBA in freethrows and 2nd in FTA per 48 minutes.
So Magette beats Marion in ppg, shooting percentage from the field while they are almost identical from 3pt and FT. He beats Marion in assists and loses in steals, rebounds and blocks but also plays 5 minutes less.
So far this season Marion has played no better than Magette, hopefully that will change.
He gave so much energy, attacked the boards, got beautiful tip-ins and Magette made very nice drives took the fouls and still finished with beautiful layups.
Magette is averaging roughly 21ppg 6rpg 3apg 1spg and 47%FG and plays only 35mpg. He ranks 2nd in the NBA in freethrows and 2nd in FTA per 48 minutes.
So Magette beats Marion in ppg, shooting percentage from the field while they are almost identical from 3pt and FT. He beats Marion in assists and loses in steals, rebounds and blocks but also plays 5 minutes less.
So far this season Marion has played no better than Magette, hopefully that will change.
cly2tw
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At their current ball skill, if no problem of injury vulnerability is involved, I'd take Magette and Artest over Marion at any equal level of salary, for this Suns team with Marbury/Amare as the core.
Both of the other can create space by driving to the basket, which Marion can't. And they have a better shot mechanics that require less space/time to get a shot off compared to Marion. In a nutshell, the offensive efficiency is not so good with Marion, though he compensates part of it with his quick leaping ability. Maybe DA is really a great coach who could bring the best out of Marion on a team with Marbury and Amare, as poster Errntknnght suggested. But it's just harder to do in general.
Both of the other can create space by driving to the basket, which Marion can't. And they have a better shot mechanics that require less space/time to get a shot off compared to Marion. In a nutshell, the offensive efficiency is not so good with Marion, though he compensates part of it with his quick leaping ability. Maybe DA is really a great coach who could bring the best out of Marion on a team with Marbury and Amare, as poster Errntknnght suggested. But it's just harder to do in general.
George O'Brien
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Artest is finally having a great year after being a problem player in past years. I love Marion, but I would take Artest if I was convinced his troubles are behind him.
I'm not so sure about Magette. He did not really start being productive until last season. HoopsHype describes him as foul prone and having a low basketball IQ.
As it is, Magette did not impress enough people last year to get a huge offer. The Clips matched the Utah offer of only $5.6 million.
The Suns paid a lot more for Marion because there were a lot more teams interested in him.
I'm not so sure about Magette. He did not really start being productive until last season. HoopsHype describes him as foul prone and having a low basketball IQ.
As it is, Magette did not impress enough people last year to get a huge offer. The Clips matched the Utah offer of only $5.6 million.
The Suns paid a lot more for Marion because there were a lot more teams interested in him.
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Marion 23 pts (10-21), 10 boards (4 offensive), 4 steals against the Lakers. That makes another 20+ pts, 10 rbs game for Shawn....
Just wondering what Marions contract is worth again? And whom are we comparing him to? How about some specifics!
If you guys were judging him on his slump...you should have known better. Marion has had little slumps before and come out of it.
Just wondering what Marions contract is worth again? And whom are we comparing him to? How about some specifics!
If you guys were judging him on his slump...you should have known better. Marion has had little slumps before and come out of it.
OP
OP
AnotherHOMER
Registered User
Im judgeing on pay. He is signed to something like 10 mill a season right? That has to be payed to a player who can bring us some W's. Not a role player.
Also, when our full line-up was in at the beginning, Marion wasnt found. It was all Marbury and Stout. That is the future...drop the old vets, build around Stout. They NEED to find a way to get rid of Googs and Penny. I feel for Googs, I think Livingston ended Googs career.
No matter what..Go Suns.
-****
Also, when our full line-up was in at the beginning, Marion wasnt found. It was all Marbury and Stout. That is the future...drop the old vets, build around Stout. They NEED to find a way to get rid of Googs and Penny. I feel for Googs, I think Livingston ended Googs career.
No matter what..Go Suns.
-****
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Errntknght
Registered User
slinslin, "I think you are completely wrong.
Marbury requires a SG who can shoot not someone who can make plays.
Marbury will makes almost all plays on the perimeter anyway and get his teammates open jumpshots."
Marbury can be a first rate playmaking guard but recent experiece shows that it cuts into his penetration and scoring when he does. I don't want that and I don't imagine you do either. So someone else on the team has to assume some playmaking duties and the SG, ala Penny, is a good candidate on this particular team. Zarko may change that - and I hope he does - but that doesn't change my basic point.
One place we appear to differ is on the value of getting your teammates open jumpshots. To me jumpshots are what you settle for when you can't do better. You draft, trade, plan and scheme to increase the number of high percentage shots your team gets - you get good jumpshooters when you can because you're always going to have to settle for jumpshots a fair amount of the time, and every little bit helps.
I don't think Shawn has shown himself to be a jump shooter of the caliber you're talking about but it's really not relevant to me. He can score better down low and get us offensive rebounds. Maybe you assumed I meant Shawn should post up a lot because of your comment about making the spacing worse - I thought I'd said enough times on here that I envisioned Marion getting closer to the hoop by working back and forth on the baseline that I didn't need to say it yet again. Were he to do that it would give us better court position and his presence wouldn't clog things for Amare the way playing White down low would. I can't think of any Sun who I'd like open better than Shawn because his man left to double Amare. Suppose they cross screened and forced a defensive switch - hey, two mismatches against most teams.
Against a zone? Yummy... all those seams for Shawn to pop into and nobody assigned to block him off the boards. And if need be he can still go to the corner for a long bomb - he'd probably shoot a higher % if he only shot them from the corners.
Heck, if Shawn were the SG and Z the SF, I'd still want Shawn working the baseline - if the opponents SG defended him down there he'd probably have even more fun.
Marbury requires a SG who can shoot not someone who can make plays.
Marbury will makes almost all plays on the perimeter anyway and get his teammates open jumpshots."
Marbury can be a first rate playmaking guard but recent experiece shows that it cuts into his penetration and scoring when he does. I don't want that and I don't imagine you do either. So someone else on the team has to assume some playmaking duties and the SG, ala Penny, is a good candidate on this particular team. Zarko may change that - and I hope he does - but that doesn't change my basic point.
One place we appear to differ is on the value of getting your teammates open jumpshots. To me jumpshots are what you settle for when you can't do better. You draft, trade, plan and scheme to increase the number of high percentage shots your team gets - you get good jumpshooters when you can because you're always going to have to settle for jumpshots a fair amount of the time, and every little bit helps.
I don't think Shawn has shown himself to be a jump shooter of the caliber you're talking about but it's really not relevant to me. He can score better down low and get us offensive rebounds. Maybe you assumed I meant Shawn should post up a lot because of your comment about making the spacing worse - I thought I'd said enough times on here that I envisioned Marion getting closer to the hoop by working back and forth on the baseline that I didn't need to say it yet again. Were he to do that it would give us better court position and his presence wouldn't clog things for Amare the way playing White down low would. I can't think of any Sun who I'd like open better than Shawn because his man left to double Amare. Suppose they cross screened and forced a defensive switch - hey, two mismatches against most teams.
Against a zone? Yummy... all those seams for Shawn to pop into and nobody assigned to block him off the boards. And if need be he can still go to the corner for a long bomb - he'd probably shoot a higher % if he only shot them from the corners.
Heck, if Shawn were the SG and Z the SF, I'd still want Shawn working the baseline - if the opponents SG defended him down there he'd probably have even more fun.
elindholm
edited for content
One place we appear to differ is on the value of getting your teammates open jumpshots. To me jumpshots are what you settle for when you can't do better.
I disagree with the entire notion of "settling" for jump shots. Contested jump shots, sure, but not jump shots in general.
You need to have the threat of the open shot in hand in order to work the ball inside. If the team can't shoot, it's too easy for the defense to get away with collapsing, and then you can kiss your penetration goodbye. If you have some shooters who have to be honored from 18 feet, then you can force the defense into concessions.
The team needs players for whom getting a wide-open look from mid-range is a good thing, not something you "settle" for. Teams don't "settle" for good jump shots from the likes of Stojakovic, Redd, Houston, a healthy Allen, etc -- they gobble them up, the same way they do with dunks.
Most people on this board would agree that, while Marbury is playing well, he still hasn't reached Kevin Johnson's level. Why is that? Because Johnson was deadly from 15-18 feet. If his defender gave him any space at all, Johnson would shoot, and no one was "settling" for anything. In my opinion, that's one big reason why the offense of the Johnson era was so much more powerful than that of the present Suns (even with Stoudemire).
Besides, layups aren't gimmes. Track how many layups get missed during a game (or have ESPN GameCast do it for you) -- it often approaches half of the attempts. In a situation where the officials are unlikely to call a foul, and against a team with active big men, a jump shot might well be a better option than forcing the ball inside.
But only if the player can shoot.
I disagree with the entire notion of "settling" for jump shots. Contested jump shots, sure, but not jump shots in general.
You need to have the threat of the open shot in hand in order to work the ball inside. If the team can't shoot, it's too easy for the defense to get away with collapsing, and then you can kiss your penetration goodbye. If you have some shooters who have to be honored from 18 feet, then you can force the defense into concessions.
The team needs players for whom getting a wide-open look from mid-range is a good thing, not something you "settle" for. Teams don't "settle" for good jump shots from the likes of Stojakovic, Redd, Houston, a healthy Allen, etc -- they gobble them up, the same way they do with dunks.
Most people on this board would agree that, while Marbury is playing well, he still hasn't reached Kevin Johnson's level. Why is that? Because Johnson was deadly from 15-18 feet. If his defender gave him any space at all, Johnson would shoot, and no one was "settling" for anything. In my opinion, that's one big reason why the offense of the Johnson era was so much more powerful than that of the present Suns (even with Stoudemire).
Besides, layups aren't gimmes. Track how many layups get missed during a game (or have ESPN GameCast do it for you) -- it often approaches half of the attempts. In a situation where the officials are unlikely to call a foul, and against a team with active big men, a jump shot might well be a better option than forcing the ball inside.
But only if the player can shoot.
George O'Brien
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Jump Shots
My main concern is the number of three point shots certain members of the Suns are taking, not mid range open jumpers. The stats are pretty clear, JJ, Shawn, and Stephon should not be shooting three's very much. They are all below 30% and take away from the rest of the offense. Casey, Penny, and Barbosa are shooting their three's better, but part of that is that they don't shoot as many.
The problem is that Stephon, JJ, and Shawn hit just enough three's to encourage them to "shoot their way of their slump", but it is not going to happen. Stephon in particular can take an open three point shot every time he comes down the floor, but in doing so he is giving the opponent just what they want.
I agree. Shawn in particular is very effective from 10 feet out because he can jump above the defender. JJ is very effective in close even when he cannot get to the basket.
One problem the Suns have is that they do not do interior passing that well. When Stephon goes to the basket, he either tries to shoot over the opponent's center or passes out. He rarely passes to the Suns center in the paint. (Behind the back passes don't count).
My main concern is the number of three point shots certain members of the Suns are taking, not mid range open jumpers. The stats are pretty clear, JJ, Shawn, and Stephon should not be shooting three's very much. They are all below 30% and take away from the rest of the offense. Casey, Penny, and Barbosa are shooting their three's better, but part of that is that they don't shoot as many.
The problem is that Stephon, JJ, and Shawn hit just enough three's to encourage them to "shoot their way of their slump", but it is not going to happen. Stephon in particular can take an open three point shot every time he comes down the floor, but in doing so he is giving the opponent just what they want.
I agree. Shawn in particular is very effective from 10 feet out because he can jump above the defender. JJ is very effective in close even when he cannot get to the basket.
One problem the Suns have is that they do not do interior passing that well. When Stephon goes to the basket, he either tries to shoot over the opponent's center or passes out. He rarely passes to the Suns center in the paint. (Behind the back passes don't count).
elindholm
edited for content
My main concern is the number of three point shots certain members of the Suns are taking, not mid range open jumpers.
That is outside of the scope of my response. Slinslin said that the Suns need (at least) one shooter, Errntknght said that he disagrees with the strategy of "settling" for open jump shots, and I said that a jump shot from an accurate shooter can be a very attractive option indeed.
I did not say that Marbury, Johnson, or Marion should be looking for jump-shot opportunities. They should not. They do not shoot well enough, which reinforces slinslin's point in the first place.
That is outside of the scope of my response. Slinslin said that the Suns need (at least) one shooter, Errntknght said that he disagrees with the strategy of "settling" for open jump shots, and I said that a jump shot from an accurate shooter can be a very attractive option indeed.
I did not say that Marbury, Johnson, or Marion should be looking for jump-shot opportunities. They should not. They do not shoot well enough, which reinforces slinslin's point in the first place.
scotsman13
Registered User
there is no way that maggette is even close to having the ability that marion has. marion has been almost a 20 and 10 player from the start of his time here. he has played good defense from the time the suns drafted him. maggette may be scoring a little better then marion so far this year but even at that marion has proven that he is a better player just this year.
marion vs. maggette
18.6 vs 20.7 points
9.2 vs 5.8 rebounds
2.4 vs 3.1 assist
1.92 vs .83 steals
1.69 vs .17 blocks
.440 vs .470 fg%
.880 vs. .859 ft%
.299 vs .304 3pt%
and the most important stat marion has gone with his team every year but 1 into the playoffs. maggette has never been. marion has been an allstar and maggette has not and they have both been in the nba the same amount of time. and marion is only a 1.5 years older then maggette so dont go telling me that maggette is so much younger then marion. if you dont count the person then you rick getting a dumas or a wallace. if you dont want nba basketball to be the hood then you need to reward players like marion who work hard on the court and also off it.
and the idea that people here are questioning where marion is worth max is a joke. you have hardaway and googs on this team and they are a great deal worth less then marion. so what if marion is starting the year poorly the past has shown that he will come back. with amare and zarko and barbosa getting more shots then they have to come from someone and that most likely will be marion.
George O'Brien
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I agree. None of the Suns are proven to be consistently accurate shooters. Casey may emerge as that player, but that remains to be seen. Penny's overall shooting has been good, but it has not always been there ar crunch time.
The hard part of evaluating shooters is that many shooters are much better when open than defensed. Stephen Jackson shot 43.5% with the Spurs last year but is shooting only 39.5% this year. Reason? No Duncan.
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It is a completely illogical argument. Penny Hardaway and Tom Gugliotta are drastically overpaid, but that doesn't make Shawn Marion worth anymore. I love Shawn Marion, but I believe that maximum contracts should go to superstars only. I don't think Shawn Marion is a superstar, and I'm not convinced anybody else would have given him the max.
Joe Mama
scotsman13
Registered User
joe how many other small forwards in the nba average 9+ boards and almost 2 blocks and 1.5 steals? marion isnt a superstar in the normal sense of the word any more then ben wallace or rodman were. marion is one of the best all around player in the nba, but he isnt a great scorer or shooter.
who would you take houston or marion? both are max players. rasheed wallace or marion? KVH or marion? if all you are looking at is scoring then both of those player are better then marion but if you are looking at other areas then marion really shines. and as far as a person there is no question that you would like to have marion in your locker room over wallace who just thought it was funny to hurt a fellow teammate.
who would you take houston or marion? both are max players. rasheed wallace or marion? KVH or marion? if all you are looking at is scoring then both of those player are better then marion but if you are looking at other areas then marion really shines. and as far as a person there is no question that you would like to have marion in your locker room over wallace who just thought it was funny to hurt a fellow teammate.
George O'Brien
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My read on it is that Marion may be about $2 million a year over paid. The problem was that they could not risk him walking away. They concluded that there was not anyone available through free agency who could do the same job for less money.
Shawn is still pretty young, has been healthy most of his career, and plays defense along with filling the stat sheets. He may be too expensive to trade, but he has all star skills. I can live with that.
Shawn is still pretty young, has been healthy most of his career, and plays defense along with filling the stat sheets. He may be too expensive to trade, but he has all star skills. I can live with that.
