Trade Marion

[PhiLLmattiC]

Alan Houston on a good team would be terrific. He scored 53 points on jumpshots alone against kobe bryant. Neither zone defense or man to man can stop him when he's hot. He's worth a lot i dunno if he's worth as much as he was paid tho. I also think if Rasheed wallace would actually play to his potential more often he'd also be well worth his contract. KVH is not worth the max at all. He had some potential but theres something missing. HE just doesn't seem to really want to shine all the time when he knows he can if he really tried. Injuries haven't helped either.

 

[George O'Brien]

Alan Houston is a lot expensive. He is $15.9 million this year, rising to $20.7 million by 06/07. He is getting 20.7 ppg on 44.6%

Compare that to Richard Hamilton of Detroit. He is getting $6.5 million rising to $11.6 million in 09/10. His stats are 16.8 ppg on 45.8%. (Hamilton is terrible from three point area).

Houston is better than Hamilton, but not twice as good. The Knicks have a lot of overpaid guys. McDyess comes off contract at $13.5 million next summer and it only gets them down to $65.9 million.

 

[Errntknght]

Eric wrote, "I disagree with the entire notion of "settling" for jump shots. Contested jump shots, sure, but not jump shots in general.

The team needs players for whom getting a wide-open look from mid-range is a good thing, not something you "settle" for. Teams don't "settle" for good jump shots from the likes of Stojakovic, Redd, Houston, a healthy Allen, etc -- they gobble them up, the same way they do with dunks."

The fact there are a small number of guys around the league for whom getting open jump shots is remotely like getting a dunk attempt doesn't make it seem like a bad notion. When draft day rolls around the GM's don't rush to draft jump shooters which indicates they don't think it's an entirely worthless notion. Teams that win the championship are seldom propelled by an array of fearsome jumpshooters - I take that as another hint it's not too bad of a notion.

Basketball is a complex game and you can't ignore something like jumpshots but as a general philosophy of drafting, trading, designing offenses and defenses I'll take one that gives precedence to close in shots rather than to jumpshots. That was the kind of thing that was at issue when I made the 'settling' statement - I said the question of whether Shawn was a first class jumpshot or not was irrelevant to me because he was of more value to this team playing in close (meaning along the baseline). I know I might be wrong about Marion, but I don't think I'm wrong about this team needing to increase it's close in scoring. We need better plays and play execution but we also need to have better and more close in options.

 

[Billythekid]

Marion is a steal.























Compared to Googs and Penny.

 

[DevonCardsFan]

Originally posted by Billythekid
Marion is a steal.
Compared to Googs and Penny.

Googs and Penny make it hard for the Suns to put great role players around their stars, wait till the trio has more players to work with, then Marbury and Marion would not have to force shots.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Errntknght

The fact there are a small number of guys around the league for whom getting open jump shots is remotely like getting a dunk attempt doesn't make it seem like a bad notion. When draft day rolls around the GM's don't rush to draft jump shooters which indicates they don't think it's an entirely worthless notion. Teams that win the championship are seldom propelled by an array of fearsome jumpshooters - I take that as another hint it's not too bad of a notion.

Part of the problem is that great shooters in college or Europe often are slow at making the transition to the physical defenses of the NBA. This year there were two pure shooters taken in the first round: Jarvis Hayes by Washing and Aleksandar Pavlovic by Utah.

Hayes is shooting 39.9% from the field and 32.7% for three's in 33.8 minutes per game.

Pavlovic is shooting 41.3% from the field and 37.4% for three's but is only playing 11.8 minutes per game

We think of JJ as being a terrible shooter, but at 38.8% he is not much below Hayes except for shooting 3's at only 27.5%

My guess is that drafting a pure shooter is mistake if the rest of the player's game is not up to par.

 

[Chaz]

I think JJ is a very good shooter.....


when he takes good shots.

Early this season he was jacking up contested threes. Lately he has been attacking the basket and taking open shots in the flow of the offense. As a result he has been much better percentage wise.

Good coaching maybe?

 

[creed]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
It is a completely illogical argument. Penny Hardaway and Tom Gugliotta are drastically overpaid, but that doesn't make Shawn Marion worth anymore. I love Shawn Marion, but I believe that maximum contracts should go to superstars only. I don't think Shawn Marion is a superstar, and I'm not convinced anybody else would have given him the max.

Joe Mama

Well what is Marion worth? And what players are you comparing him to? You're much too vague..saying he's overpaid doesnt tell us anything.

 

[AnotherHOMER]

Too bad the Knicks dont have ANYBODY worth a look at. At least for our team. You know Thomas is going to start dumping all of those players. Actually, what about Houstan for Marion?

-****

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by JizzHornay
Too bad the Knicks dont have ANYBODY worth a look at. At least for our team. You know Thomas is going to start dumping all of those players. Actually, what about Houstan for Marion?

-****

They want to dump players because they are mostly overpaid. Houston for example is quite pricy and has a very long contract.

 

[creed]

Lets break it down....

I got the info from hoopshype. Lets examine 1) Which players is Marion better than 2) Which players is Marion the better money deal against

1. Kevin Garnett Minnesota
$27,995,000
2. Shaquille O'Neal LA Lakers
$26,517,858
3. Dikembe Mutombo New Jersey / New York
$17,069,738
4. Rasheed Wallace Portland
$16,985,000
5. Allan Houston New York
$15,937,500
-. Chris Webber Sacramento
$15,937,500
7. Shawn Kemp Portland
$14,941,935
8. Damon Stoudamire Portland
$14,375,000
9. Antonio McDyess New York
$13,500,000
-. Anfernee Hardaway Phoenix
$13,500,000
-. Vin Baker Boston
$13,500,000
-. Shareef Abdur-Rahim Atlanta
$13,500,000
-. Ray Allen Seattle
$13,500,000
-. Antoine Walker Dallas
$13,500,000
-. Stephon Marbury Phoenix
$13,500,000
-. Zydrunas Illgauskas Cleveland
$13,500,000
-. Latrell Sprewell Minnesota
$13,500,000
18. Kobe Bryant LA Lakers
$13,497,500
19. Allen Iverson Philadelphia
$13,490,000
20. Michael Finley Dallas
$13,281,500
21. Keith Van Horn New York
$13,279,750
-. Tracy McGrady Orlando
$13,279,750
-. Grant Hill Orlando
$13,279,750
24. Jalen Rose Toronto
$13,279,500
25. Jason Kidd New Jersey
$13,142,000
26. Jermaine O'Neal Indiana
$13,135,000
27. Tim Duncan San Antonio
$12,535,279
28. Eddie Jones Miami
$12,320,000
29. Brian Grant Miami
$12,234,063

 

[George O'Brien]

Interesting list. The only problem is that it does not cover what happens in the future. Garnett for example signed a new contract that cuts his pay to $16 million next year but rises to $24 million in 08/09. By contrast, Ray Allen's contract expires after next year.

 

[creed]

I think Marion compares favorably to numerous players on that list.

I mean starting with #1 Garnett....Is KG worth (28M) almost three Marions? Not in my mind when Marion brings in 75-85% of KG stats. I'd rather have three Marions and trade two of them off than one super overpriced KG....its all theory of course but you get my point.

Or how about #4 Rasheed Wallace? Is he really worth $6M more than Marion? I havnt looked up their stats recently but I always thought Marions stats are equal to if not better than Sheeds.

#5 Allen Houston at $15.9M....Do I really have to get into this one? Houston is one dimensional compared to Marion.

I mean it goes on and on.....Sure you can quote deals going the other way but on the whole Marion numbers stand up well against many of the highest paid players in the NBA...and Shawns salary is much lower than all of them.

It's not just who is better and who gets paid what...it's also about team chemisty and other intangibles. Marion is a young and highly productive player thats not a trouble maker...that alone is worth something in its own right. Many would agree that certain players attitudes and reputation has some weight as to a players worth...on some level.

Also, lets play devil's advocate and say the C's said "Marion is worth $2M less a season...like $8M". What amount of risk and trouble do you think the Colangelos are will to endure to save a couple million? Do they want a pouty Marion acting all ripped off and sour? Do they want to do a risky trade with another team over it...maybe (probably) get a lessor player or get a player the other players don't like? What are the tradeoffs? Would the fans turn on the C's for dumping the likable "Matrix"?

NBA salaries are a tricky situation..on many levels. Only part of the equation is comparing players to each other. It goes much deaper than that. I just think Marion fills our needs in many areas and he's not worth being frivolous over. There are many other Suns player to save money on (dump) to not tick off one of our core players who by many standards is worth the money..

 

[Joe Mama]

I think the logic is flawed here. Of course Shawn Marion is better than many of the players on that list. Of course he is a better bargain that many of the other players on that list. That's because there are many players, especially those signed a couple of years ago, who are drastically overpaid. That doesn't mean Shawn Marion is worth a maximum contract.

BTW the statistics don't tell the whole story when it comes to comparing Kevin Garnett to Shawn Marion. KG is a top three player. Shawn Marion might not be a top 20 player.

Joe Mama

 

[creed]

Originally posted by Joe Mama

I think the logic is flawed here. Of course Shawn Marion is better than many of the players on that list. Of course he is a better bargain that many of the other players on that list. That's because there are many players, especially those signed a couple of years ago, who are drastically overpaid. That doesn't mean Shawn Marion is worth a maximum contract.

If you're basicly saying they're all overpaid then what couple players are you making the Marion comparison with??

BTW the statistics don't tell the whole story when it comes to comparing Kevin Garnett to Shawn Marion.

Stats are a big basis of negotiating with Marion (and agent) with his contract.

KG is a top three player.

Thats a subjective label and tag which has no basis for the salary discussion. The question still remains...who is the better deal? KG for $28M or Marion for $10M? I think the extra $18M would go FAR in aquiring extra talent....Kobe doesn't even get $18M.

Shawn Marion might not be a top 20 player.

But Marion doesn't get paid like a top 20 player so what are you expecting?

 

[George O'Brien]

The question of whether Marion is overpaid seems to be related to the desire by some people to trade him. Clearly the Suns management has no interest in doing that, which is why they locked him in with a long term contract.

Objectively, some guys are over paid and other under paid. Some players are relatively cheap. These include guys who are on the last years of their rookie contracts, veterans who came out in a year when most teams are over the cap, guys whose contracts came up after injury years, etc. Other healthy players can be overpaid because there is a lot of competition for their type of player that year or they played on team that has troubles attracting outside free agents.

The problem with Garnett's contract was not that he wasn't worth a lot to the Wolves. It was simply that his contract made it hard to sign enough other good players to make them competative. Next season, his contract will be $12 lower than this year although it rises in later years. They need that money if the Wolves are going to be more than just a "good" team.

I don't see Marion's contract being so large that it hurts the Sun's competitiveness.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by George O'Brien

I don't see Marion's contract being so large that it hurts the Sun's competitiveness.

In five years Stephon Marbury and Shawn Marion will be making a combined $38 million. Now we have no idea what the salary cap will be at that point or even how new salaries are structured, but that number doesn't look good to me. I honestly don't see Marbury improving a whole lot more. I have a hard time believing Shawn Marion is going to turn into a superstar by then also.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
In five years Stephon Marbury and Shawn Marion will be making a combined $38 million. Now we have no idea what the salary cap will be at that point or even how new salaries are structured, but that number doesn't look good to me. I honestly don't see Marbury improving a whole lot more. I have a hard time believing Shawn Marion is going to turn into a superstar by then also.

Joe Mama

Was there anyone as productive available for less?

A lot depends on whether the luxury tax continues after the next labor contract. Perhaps the Suns are anticipating that it won't.

 

[elindholm]

Was there anyone as productive available for less?

The correct question is not "was there," but "will there be?" And the answer is yes. By 2008-09, $40 million per year will get you a lot of production in this league.

 

[creed]

2008-2009?

Who knows how anything will be in 2008-2009....It's literally too far fetched to even think about

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by elindholm
Was there anyone as productive available for less?

The correct question is not "was there," but "will there be?" And the answer is yes. By 2008-09, $40 million per year will get you a lot of production in this league.

I agree with Creed. There's no way of knowing what the financial landscape of the NBA will look like in 2008-09. Right now it looks like the owners are more concerned with the length of the contracts than the players' per year salary. If they give up the luxury tax in order to reduce the length of the maximum contracts we will probably see a decent increase in teams salaries.

Joe Mama

 

[AzCards21]

Originally posted by SweetD
Base Year Compensation (BYC) When teams re-sign their veteran free agents under the Larry Bird exception for 20 percent more than their last contract and the team is over the salary cap, the player falls under the BYC category.

If a team with a BYC player wants to trade him straight up to another team that is under the cap, the BYC player's value is cut in half. That is because the team can only receive a player that's worth 50 percent of the first year of the player's new contract (plus 15 percent and $100,000).

Very late reply on my part SweetD. But thanks.

 

[AnotherHOMER]

Is this the biggest thread this message board has ever had? I hope so...cause I started it.

-**** <--*******

 

[Chaplin]

Not even close. I believe one of the threads from when Jason Kidd was traded was longer.

 

[AnotherHOMER]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Not even close. I believe one of the threads from when Jason Kidd was traded was longer.

Damn. Alright, I will start a thread saying trade Stoute...



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