Trade talks & rumors

[SirStefan32]

Dragic has become one of my favorite player, but $17M for Dragic is crazy. He'll get it, I am sure, but the Suns can't afford him and Bledsoe. They overpaid for Bledsoe, so overpaying for a bad match is a really bad idea. Now, get rid of Bledsoe and he may be worth $15M or so.

 

[sunsfan88]

I don't think we should invest more than $30M into our starting backcourt and that's taking the rising cap into consideration.

I'd start negotiations at $12M/yr (same offer Lowry got) but then I'm sure it will get escalated quickly to $14M/yr because Goran's agent will point to the contract we gave Bledsoe despite such a small sample size and major injury risk that he presented.

Max I would throw at Goran would be $17M/yr even though its exceeding the $30M margin for the entire backcourt.

Now if we traded IT this week and Goran plays amazingly well to finish the season then I would consider $18M/yr but that's it.

For the record, I don't think Goran will get more than that on the market.

 

[3rdside]

I don't think we should invest more than $30M into our starting backcourt and that's taking the rising cap into consideration.

I'd start negotiations at $12M/yr (same offer Lowry got) but then I'm sure it will get escalated quickly to $14M/yr because Goran's agent will point to the contract we gave Bledsoe despite such a small sample size and major injury risk that he presented.

Max I would throw at Goran would be $17M/yr even though its exceeding the $30M margin for the entire backcourt.

Now if we traded IT this week and Goran plays amazingly well to finish the season then I would consider $18M/yr but that's it.

For the record, I don't think Goran will get more than that on the market.

In line with my previous analysis i'd go for max $17m per as well even though i' be hella nervous about doing it. But between losing Dragic either now in a trade, or for nothing in the offseason, i'd prefer to go with the $17m per offer.

And he could probably be had for less than that anyway as I don't think he's as concerned about maxxing his salary as much as other players are. And (also) he might even be happy getting paid the same as Bledsoe in the name of even stevens team harmony..

 

[Sci Fi]

In line with my previous analysis i'd go for max $17m per as well even though i' be hella nervous about doing it. But between losing Dragic either now in a trade, or for nothing in the offseason, i'd prefer to go with the $17m per offer.

And he could probably be had for less than that anyway as I don't think he's as concerned about maxxing his salary as much as other players are. And (also) he might even be happy getting paid the same as Bledsoe in the name of even stevens team harmony..

What world do you live in? Dragic is supposed to create team harmony by taking a pay cut when Eric Bledsoe had zero contact with his teammates last year during the summer, the summer of #wewriteourown which was followed by the winter of **** on Dragic.

Keep dreaming.

 

[3rdside]

What world do you live in? Dragic is supposed to create team harmony by taking a pay cut when Eric Bledsoe had zero contact with his teammates last year during the summer, the summer of #wewriteourown.

Keep dreaming.

What pay cut? And keep in mind I said 'might' - anyway, I think you underestimate the relative value of NBA money to an American vs a Slovenian. See Hofstede's Cultural Dimension of 'Individualism vs Collectivism'.

If you're interested, click on this link and choose the United States as the comparison country.

http://geert-hofstede.com/slovenia.html

 

[Joe Mama]

Somebody is going to give him a contract that starts at least in the $16 million range. By the way, anybody who thinks the offense this year is as good as last is not watching the games. Overall numbers may be similar but not as good. Every offense is going to struggle at times, but this one just gets in major ruts where it doesn't get any shots close to the basket and can't hit the broadside of a barn from the perimeter.

 

[slinslin]

Somebody is going to give him a contract that starts at least in the $16 million range. By the way, anybody who thinks the offense this year is as good as last is not watching the games. Overall numbers may be similar but not as good. Every offense is going to struggle at times, but this one just gets in major ruts where it doesn't get any shots close to the basket and can't hit the broadside of a barn from the perimeter.

So same as last season.

We are 8th by offensive efficiency, we get more assists per game and we have a higher assist rate.

 

[3rdside]

So same as last season.

We are 8th by offensive efficiency, we get more assists per game and we have a higher assist rate.

But it's obvious we look worse. Go figure.

 

[slinslin]

But it's obvious we look worse. Go figure.

Good think "looking" is subjective and meaningless.

 

[3rdside]

That's just it, it's not. You can't interpret sports from statistics alone.


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[Hoop Head]

That's just it, it's not. You can't interpret sports from statistics alone.


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Slin doesn't watch games and doesn't understand there are things that can't be measured by some sort of stat, that's the reason there are advanced stats.

 

[Covert Rain]

Good think "looking" is subjective and meaningless.

Scouts would 100% disagree with you.

 

[AzStevenCal]

This is a weird argument. I don't know how anyone can say that this offense hasn't been exactly what the stats say it's been. It hasn't always been pretty but for the most part it's been pretty effective, just as the numbers show. We get shut down at times but that happened a lot last year too. I think there's some selective memory at work here. People complained often last season about how we lived and died by the 3 point shot and how selfish we were because our assists numbers were so low. And they complained about our lack of an inside scorer.

Steve

 

[marios13]

Bledsoe got 70 mil for 5 years that is 14 mil per year.

If the Suns at least don't match that I doubt Dragic is staying especially because this will probably be his last pay day. Also 14 million this year is worth less than I was worth last year.

@3rdside
As long as you live and work in USA the value of money is the same so your can stuff your cultural institute bs somewhere.

Slinky and SciFi are as always polar opposites ... anyway there are 2 more days to go before we know if Suns manage to get something of value for Goran.

I don't know where those stats come from, but IT is definitely not a better defender than Goran. At least when I watched games players just threw over him.

 

[Covert Rain]

This is a weird argument. I don't know how anyone can say that this offense hasn't been exactly what the stats say it's been. It hasn't always been pretty but for the most part it's been pretty effective, just as the numbers show. We get shut down at times but that happened a lot last year too. I think there's some selective memory at work here. People complained often last season about how we lived and died by the 3 point shot and how selfish we were because our assists numbers were so low. And they complained about our lack of an inside scorer.

Steve

It is a weird argument and I actually see value in both stats and observation when used together. When you look at them desperately, it can be a slippery slope. Especially stats IMO. For example, during the Suns run when Amare was playing mostly center, you would have thought this team was unstoppable offensively and could easily glide to a title. For a large portion of our offense we too lived and died by the 3 during those years.

What happened when we played really really good defense teams that shut down the 3 point line and trapped Nash? What happened in the playoffs? Those teams struggled like no other when forced into half court sets. If you looked at the stats you would have said...nah...that team had no problems but anybody who watched the games could see.

However, the next night the team would kill someone by 25 points and put up huge numbers making it look like all was good in the world statistically. On the flipside I think oberservations can be totally subjective sometimes. We key in on players we like or don't like sometimes.

I do not dismiss stats (it's not in my nature). However, observation is huge IMO. When a coach schemes for their opponent, no coach looks at a stat line and comes up with a plan. These guys study hours and hours of tape all the time. So I find the argument that "observation" is useless while saying stats is the be all end all comical.

 

[marios13]

Well big problem with stats is they can and are being influenced by the players around you. If you get late passes or don't get any at all you production is going to suffer.

Someone looking only at the stats won't see it.
You might get a pass 0,5 seconds late and its the difference between being able to slip by your defender or getting blocked or a turnover.

You can't see such situations in stats.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Bledsoe got 70 mil for 5 years that is 14 mil per year.

If the Suns at least don't match that I doubt Dragic is staying especially because this will probably be his last pay day. Also 14 million this year is worth less than I was worth last year.

@3rdside
As long as you live and work in USA the value of money is the same so your can stuff your cultural institute bs somewhere.

Slinky and SciFi are as always polar opposites ... anyway there are 2 more days to go before we know if Suns manage to get something of value for Goran.

I don't know where those stats come from, but IT is definitely not a better defender than Goran. At least when I watched games players just threw over him.

Not if you mean in relation to Eric's contract. One of the reasons the front office sweetened the pot despite Bledsoe's side lacking leverage was because of the pending TV deal. IT is not a good defender but when our lineup was Bledsoe, Dragic, Thomas, Keef and Len, we were a pretty good defensive team. That's good enough for me.

In the end, I think we want to keep Goran. But that will largely depend on him. I just don't think the front office wants to pay him more than Bledsoe and if they do it will be with an eye to trading him next season. OTOH, we still have the issue with him playing shooting guard. I think he's better off splitting the ball handling duties but if he feels otherwise we'd be better off moving him now then losing him for nothing.

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

In the end, I think we want to keep Goran. But that will largely depend on him. I just don't think the front office wants to pay him more than Bledsoe and if they do it will be with an eye to trading him next season. OTOH, we still have the issue with him playing shooting guard. I think he's better off splitting the ball handling duties but if he feels otherwise we'd be better off moving him now then losing him for nothing.

Steve

Forget about wants. Do you think they can field a long term competitive team with that much money tied up just in your guards?!?!

 

[SirStefan32]

Forget about wants. Do you think they can field a long term competitive team with that much money tied up just in your guards?!?!

Sure, a team can be competitive with $30M+ annually going to guards, that's not in question. If it goes to Dragic (and especially Bledsoe), two flawed players who don't complement each other at all, and one makes the other one worse, the answer is no.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Forget about wants. Do you think they can field a long term competitive team with that much money tied up just in your guards?!?!

Easily. Give us a plus player at the 3, and a stretch 4 that can also defend a little down low and let Len grow into a top center, add in a solid bench and that's a contending team.

Steve

 

[3rdside]

Marios - a pleasure to hear from you! You studied cultural dimensions and decided they were irrelevant? Impressive. Let me know your arguments, for and against, about whether the world is flat.


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[Covert Rain]

Sure, a team can be competitive with $30M+ annually going to guards, that's not in question. If it goes to Dragic (and especially Bledsoe), two flawed players who don't complement each other at all, and one makes the other one worse, the answer is no.

Easily. Give us a plus player at the 3, and a stretch 4 that can also defend a little down low and let Len grow into a top center, add in a solid bench and that's a contending team.

Steve

I don't know. The salary cap is what $76.8 Million. That would leave on average 4.68 mil left per roster spot on your team. Chances are to get anybody of quality (big men) to add to your roster that number gets much smaller because you are going to have to pay big. Even if you draft someone who turns into something when that rookie contract is up you have to pay the which makes that number per roster sport drop dramatically.

I just don't see how putting 14 mil or so per....for 2 guards on your roster over the long term is a good idea. Give me one guard at that price, one legit big man at that price and I bet we sport a more competitive team in the long run.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't know. The salary cap is what $76.8 Million. That would leave on average 4.68 mil left per roster spot on your team. Chances are to get anybody of quality (big men) to add to your roster that number gets much smaller because you are going to have to pay big. Even if you draft someone who turns into something when that rookie contract is up you have to pay the which makes that number per roster sport drop dramatically.

I just don't see how putting 14 mil or so per....for 2 guards on your roster over the long term is a good idea. Give me one guard at that price, one legit big man at that price and I bet we sport a more competitive team in the long run.

Well, if you want to alter the conversation, I agree. I'd much prefer to have a great guard and a great big man than I would two great guards (or scale down the talent levels, the point is the same). But with the way the game has changed, there is some logic to putting a greater share of your salary in the perimeter positions compared to what you'd expect historically.

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

Well, if you want to alter the conversation, I agree. I'd much prefer to have a great guard and a great big man than I would two great guards (or scale down the talent levels, the point is the same). But with the way the game has changed, there is some logic to putting a greater share of your salary in the perimeter positions compared to what you'd expect historically.

Steve

How has the game changed exactly? This is still a league where titles are dominated by teams with quality big men? If you look at every title since 2000 there is a quality big man with decent money tied into them.

Can you elaborate?

 

[slinslin]

According to the Rockets insider the Suns are holding out because they are trying to include Goran Dragic in a deal for DeMarcus Cousins, hoping that the Kings will listen to offers before the deadline.

1st deal
Isaiah Thomas for Jason Terry and Pelicans pick

Goran Dragic, Zoran Dragic, Marcus Morris, Markieff Morris, Terry(expiring, cut), Lakers top 5 protected pick, Pelicans late lottery pick for DeMarcus Cousins, Jason Thompson (bad contract)

Some Toronto guy claims he heard the Suns like Terrence Ross and the Raptors PJ Tucker.