Trade talks & rumors

[slinslin]

1.
Phoenix, Charrlote, 3rd Team
Phoenix gets Vonleh, Charlottes pick (#14 currently), an expiring contract from 3rd team
Charlotte gets Dragic brothers
3rd team gets a contract from Charlotte, eg Henderson on a 2 year deal
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=kloddn4

2.
Phoenix, Houston
Phoenix gets Terry, Donatas Motiejunas, Clint Capela, New Orleans 2015 First Round Pick
Houstons gets Dragic, Dragic


Next step would be seeing if Green and Wright can get us more value that the capspace created by not resigning them would be worth. So basically any other expiring deal with a draft pick.
Tucker and Thomas could be shopped too to make room in the rotation for Warren and Ennis/Goodwin.

 

[JCSunsfan]

And each of our three point guards played pretty well when Len was able to put in decent minutes. Our struggles have come since he hit the rookie wall or before he had worked his way up to 20 + minutes. I know it's not going to happen given our chemistry issues and the probability that Goran will out price us but keep this team mostly intact for a couple of years and many of our problems go by the wayside. We'd hopefully add a quality backup power forward through the draft and a starting lineup of Bledsoe, Dragic, Warren, Keef and Len backed up by Ennis, IT, Goodwin, New Guy and Wright could easily become a legit contender.

Steve

Bingo.

 

[Joe Mama]

1.
Phoenix, Charrlote, 3rd Team
Phoenix gets Vonleh, Charlottes pick (#14 currently), an expiring contract from 3rd team
Charlotte gets Dragic brothers
3rd team gets a contract from Charlotte, eg Henderson on a 2 year deal
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=kloddn4

2.
Phoenix, Houston
Phoenix gets Terry, Donatas Motiejunas, Clint Capela, New Orleans 2015 First Round Pick
Houstons gets Dragic, Dragic


Next step would be seeing if Green and Wright can get us more value that the capspace created by not resigning them would be worth. So basically any other expiring deal with a draft pick.
Tucker and Thomas could be shopped too to make room in the rotation for Warren and Ennis/Goodwin.

I don't know. Each of those seem like pretty lopsided trades in favor of the Phoenix Suns. I doubt we could get Motiejunas and one of those other pieces and I'm sure we could not get all three.

Joe

 

[Hoop Head]

Apparently Denver is shopping everyone on their roster, outside of Jusuf Nurkic, they've made Ty Lawson and Faried available in addition to everyone else on their roster. I'd love to see the Suns try and flip the Morrii for Faried, he's on a long term deal and would help our interior defense, rebounding, and hustle. He's not terrible offensively and could fill Markieff's current role although he doesn't launch bad 3's I think that would be a plus.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports....trades/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

[3rdside]

What I just posted elsewhere - an FYI I guess you'd call it:



My initial thought was that we'd really fcked up by signing IT as it meant losing Dragic - figured he was going to the Rockets with all the rumours flying round a couple days ago. And I was grudgingly okay with it because I didn't think it made sense to have a very expensive backcourt of Bledsoe and Dragic i.e. Dragic at ~$17m + Bledsoe.



But, remembering Back Court 2000 (which, btw, is why I'm a Suns fan - I used to collect Hardaway cards / he got traded here..) I've done a quick calc looking at combined back court salaries vs the salary cap and it's interesting to see that we could pay Dragic up to $17.75m (looking only at one season forward) for Bledsoe / Dragic to be the salary equivalent of Kidd / Hardaway. I'm not saying we should definitely do it but, if we did decide to pay Dragic $17m then I guess it's not a bad idea based on past experience.



Salary Cap 1999-2000$34.00m



Kidd$6.86m

Hardaway$9.00m

K + H % of the cap46.65%







Salary Cap 2015-2016$67.00m



Bledsoe$13.50m

Dragic$17.75m

B + D % of the cap46.64%







My preference (as partially already stated) - trade IT, lock down Dragic with a big number.

 

[Hoop Head]

That's way too much for a player who will be 29, never made an All Star game and most likely never will, and he's never led a team to the postseason either. I love Dragic but for that price they have to let him walk. He's not Nash, as much as people like to compare the 2 because of their history, if this season is any indication Dragic has already peaked and paying him 17+ million a year for the production he's given the team this season is far too much.

 

[3rdside]

That's way too much for a player who will be 29, never made an All Star game and most likely never will, and he's never led a team to the postseason either. I love Dragic but for that price they have to let him walk. He's not Nash, as much as people like to compare the 2 because of their history, if this season is any indication Dragic has already peaked and paying him 17+ million a year for the production he's given the team this season is far too much.

Dragic's age is irrelevant - it's the same as Nash's when we got him from Dallas. No one saw Nash as a two time MVP at that point so to say Dragic's output has peaked is false. I'm not you're wrong but you're not right.

What I should have said also is that the salary cap is going up disproportionately in a couple years (details of which I'm sketchy on) so the relative value of the back court's salary will be smaller yet.

What do we know - the success of last year was most probably due to our guards. Let's build on that idea.

 

[Sci Fi]

What I just posted elsewhere - an FYI I guess you'd call it:



My initial thought was that we'd really fcked up by signing IT as it meant losing Dragic - figured he was going to the Rockets with all the rumours flying round a couple days ago. And I was grudgingly okay with it because I didn't think it made sense to have a very expensive backcourt of Bledsoe and Dragic i.e. Dragic at ~$17m + Bledsoe.



But, remembering Back Court 2000 (which, btw, is why I'm a Suns fan - I used to collect Hardaway cards / he got traded here..) I've done a quick calc looking at combined back court salaries vs the salary cap and it's interesting to see that we could pay Dragic up to $17.75m (looking only at one season forward) for Bledsoe / Dragic to be the salary equivalent of Kidd / Hardaway. I'm not saying we should definitely do it but, if we did decide to pay Dragic $17m then I guess it's not a bad idea based on past experience.



Salary Cap 1999-2000$34.00m



Kidd$6.86m

Hardaway$9.00m

K + H % of the cap46.65%







Salary Cap 2015-2016$67.00m



Bledsoe$13.50m

Dragic$17.75m

B + D % of the cap46.64%







My preference (as partially already stated) - trade IT, lock down Dragic with a big number.

Your preference is the same as basically ever other fans preference. Trade Thomas and magically everything will be better. Sorry, but Thomas isn't the problem. Bledsoe is. And he's the reason the team is worse.


Dragic has had enough of being moved off the ball for a lesser player. Thomas only plays 26 minutes a game and very little with Dragic. Thomas has actually been good this year for what he has been asked to do.

 

[Hoop Head]

Dragic's age is irrelevant - it's the same as Nash's when we got him from Dallas. No one saw Nash as a two time MVP at that point so to say Dragic's output has peaked is false. I'm not you're wrong but you're not right.

What I should have said also is that the salary cap is going up disproportionately in a couple years (details of which I'm sketchy on) so the relative value of the back court's salary will be smaller yet.

What do we know - the success of last year was most probably due to our guards. Let's build on that idea.

His age is not irrelevant. Dragic's play style relies heavily on his speed and athleticism, Nash's didn't. Nash was a different kind of player entirely, he played smart and also benefited from our great training staff. Nothing about Nash & Dragic's games are really the same outside of both of them being guards. Nash made everyone else on the court better, Dragic can't do that the same or even close. How many players have had career years playing alongside Nash and how many have had career years alongside Dragic?

Nash was a once in a lifetime player, Dragic is not. He ended up being a 2 time MVP and helped change the way the whole NBA played the game, based on more fast-breaks and ball movement. Lightning doesn't strike twice. Guards get worse with age, typically, especially those who rely on their athleticism.

 

[slinslin]

Kidd and Hardaway both were all-nba first team material players.. Bledsoe and Dragic are not.

Paying Dragic a big number means this team won't be taking the next step soon.

 

[slinslin]

Bledsoe is. And he's the reason the team is worse.

That is laughable, considering our best performing lineups all feature Bledsoe while Bledsoe also leads the team in most advanced categories while being a stellar defender and the offense overall ranking as good as last year and better in terms of assists.

 

[3rdside]

His age is not irrelevant. Dragic's play style relies heavily on his speed and athleticism, Nash's didn't. Nash was a different kind of player entirely, he played smart and also benefited from our great training staff. Nothing about Nash & Dragic's games are really the same outside of both of them being guards. Nash made everyone else on the court better, Dragic can't do that the same or even close. How many players have had career years playing alongside Nash and how many have had career years alongside Dragic?

Nash was a once in a lifetime player, Dragic is not. He ended up being a 2 time MVP and helped change the way the whole NBA played the game, based on more fast-breaks and ball movement. Lightning doesn't strike twice. Guards get worse with age, typically, especially those who rely on their athleticism.

In football (soccer) it's 'generally assumed' that pace starts to go at about 32. We pay Dragic for 5 years, based on this we get three good years and after that it's up to him whether he can adjust. Good players do. Dragic's age should not come into consideration.

 

[slinslin]

Good players can adjust? But apparently Dragic can't adjust right now..

Bottom line is Dragic is not worth anywhere near the max.

 

[3rdside]

Kidd and Hardaway both were all-nba first team material players.. Bledsoe and Dragic are not.

Paying Dragic a big number means this team won't be taking the next step soon.

Kidd only became super awesome after he left us and Hardaway had most definitely peaked before he got here.

Stats aren't everything I know but here they are (using last year's stats for Bledsoe and Dragic as it's a better comparison even though definitely imperfect due to Bledsoe's injury) and they probably support your argument that K+H > B+D but it's not a huge difference - what BC2000 had in assists, BC2015 has in points. There is a big difference in rebounding:


Kidd: PPG - 14.3, Asst - 10.1, Rb - 7.2, PER 18.4, WS - 8.5
Hardaway PPG - 16.9, Asst - 5.3, Rb - 5.8, PER 17.9, WS - 7.8
Total PPG - 31.2. Asst - 15.4, Rb - 14.0

Dragic PPG - 20.3, Asst - 5.9, Rb - 3.2, PER 21.4, WS - 10.3
Bledsoe PPG - 17.7, Asst - 5.5, Rb - 4.7, PER 19.6, WS - 4.1
Total PPG - 38.0. Asst - 11.4, Rb - 7.7

And to repeat; the salary cap is going up disproportionately the year after next (details of which I'm sketchy on) so the relative value of BC2015 salaries will go down quite a lot.

All I know is that the probable reason for our success last year was the guards' play therefore we're better off building on this idea rather than trying anything else, and paying Dragic $17m to do it isn't crazy. And what's interesting in last year's stats is how high Dragic's WS number is vs Bledsoe's - I've always thought Dragic is the better player.

 

[Sci Fi]

Good players can adjust? But apparently Dragic can't adjust right now..

Bottom line is Dragic is not worth anywhere near the max.

So what will Dragic get next year Slin?

12 mil? 15 mil? 20mil?

Tell us what your crystal ball shows.

How much and where? (or likely suitors)

 

[Sci Fi]

That is laughable, considering our best performing lineups all feature Bledsoe while Bledsoe also leads the team in most advanced categories while being a stellar defender and the offense overall ranking as good as last year and better in terms of assists.

Eric Bledsoe is the new Kevin Love.

He can get his but he doesn't help his team win.

Bettter players, less injuries, a potential star emerges in Alex Len and still about 10 less expected wins. Maybe 15.

The only other real change is the team changes leaders.

Hum?

Something smells wrong with your analysis.

I think you're missing something.

You're not secretly Ryan McDonough are you?

 

[slinslin]

Kidd only became super awesome after he left us and Hardaway had most definitely peaked before he got here.

Stats aren't everything I know but here they are (using last year's stats for Bledsoe and Dragic as it's a better comparison even though definitely imperfect due to Bledsoe's injury) and they probably support your argument that K+H > B+D but it's not a huge difference - what BC2000 had in assists, BC2015 has in points. There is a big difference in rebounding:


Kidd: PPG - 14.3, Asst - 10.1, Rb - 7.2, PER 18.4, WS - 8.5
Hardaway PPG - 16.9, Asst - 5.3, Rb - 5.8, PER 17.9, WS - 7.8
Total PPG - 31.2. Asst - 15.4, Rb - 14.0

Dragic PPG - 20.3, Asst - 5.9, Rb - 3.2, PER 21.4, WS - 10.3
Bledsoe PPG - 17.7, Asst - 5.5, Rb - 4.7, PER 19.6, WS - 4.1
Total PPG - 38.0. Asst - 11.4, Rb - 7.7

And to repeat; the salary cap is going up disproportionately the year after next (details of which I'm sketchy on) so the relative value of BC2015 salaries will go down quite a lot.

All I know is that the probable reason for our success last year was the guards' play therefore we're better off building on this idea rather than trying anything else, and paying Dragic $17m to do it isn't crazy. And what's interesting in last year's stats is how high Dragic's WS number is vs Bledsoe's - I've always thought Dragic is the better player.

Kidd made all-nba first team basically every season in Phoenix

Dragic and Bledsoe are not even in the same universe as Kidd and Hardaway when backcourt2000 was put together.

If you want to make a comparison it would be like if one team right now put together Chris Paul and James Harden.

 

[3rdside]

Good players can adjust? But apparently Dragic can't adjust right now..

Bottom line is Dragic is not worth anywhere near the max.

Touché but im not sure it's not quite what I meant - dragic has been marginalised by his own team.

And $17m is not the max.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[slinslin]

McDonough would have to be braindead to pay Dragic 17M$ per season.

 

[AzStevenCal]

All I know is that the probable reason for our success last year was the guards' play therefore we're better off building on this idea rather than trying anything else, and paying Dragic $17m to do it isn't crazy. And what's interesting in last year's stats is how high Dragic's WS number is vs Bledsoe's - I've always thought Dragic is the better player.

Without weighing in on who is better, this comparison is like comparing total career points from a 1st year player to a 20 year player. IOW it has no relevance unless they've played a similar number of games and even then it's questionable.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

McDonough would have to be braindead to pay Dragic 17M$ per season.

I think you're going to see a lot of players making that kind of money and more when the TV deal kicks in.

Steve

 

[3rdside]

Without weighing in on who is better, this comparison is like comparing total career points from a 1st year player to a 20 year player. IOW it has no relevance unless they've played a similar number of games and even then it's questionable.

Steve

I'd be inclined to agree if the gulf wasn't so huge.

 

[3rdside]

McDonough would have to be braindead to pay Dragic 17M$ per season.

It's not a stupid idea.

I mentioned BC2000 as a reference point to make sure it isn't completely insane to go heavy spending on back court 2015 i.e we've done it before with some degree of success, albeit with better players. But the heavy Dragic salary must be considered in light of the disproportionate increase in the cap predicted for 2016, and the success we had last year :

Even though Kidd / Hardaway is better than Dragic / Bledsoe, the 99-00 Suns won only 5 more games than we did last year, and they had a far superior supporting cast in Rodney Rogers, Tom Gugliotta and Cliff Robinson. IMO, this further puts into perspective the over achievement of last year, where Dragic was the leading player on that team.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'd be inclined to agree if the gulf wasn't so huge.

Of course the gulf is huge, that's my point. It would automatically be huge simply because he played in more games and his team won more games. If you are the best player in the world and you only play in half your games, you're going to look pretty mediocre compared to decent players that appeared in all their games. Last year Eric's W/S was also below that of Tucker, Green, Markieff and Marcus too but it was higher last year than Kevin Durant's is this year. IOW, meaningless especially if they don't play in and win roughly the same number of games. At least that's my understanding of the stat.

Steve

 

[3rdside]

Of course the gulf is huge, that's my point. It would automatically be huge simply because he played in more games and his team won more games. If you are the best player in the world and you only play in half your games, you're going to look pretty mediocre compared to decent players that appeared in all their games. Last year Eric's W/S was also below that of Tucker, Green, Markieff and Marcus too but it was higher last year than Kevin Durant's is this year. IOW, meaningless especially if they don't play in and win roughly the same number of games. At least that's my understanding of the stat.

Steve

I see what you're saying. It's the first time i've seen that stat and I think you're right; it's not done on a pro-rata basis.