Trade talks & rumors

[AzStevenCal]

How has the game changed exactly? This is still a league where titles are dominated by teams with quality big men? If you look at every title since 2000 there is a quality big man with decent money tied into them.

Can you elaborate?

I've tried writing it up half dozen different ways and I keep losing my train of thought. Sorry. Just google "has the NBA game changed" and I'm sure you'll find a much better explanation than I'm capable of providing but I'll cover a few of the basics.

Analytics and the effectiveness of the 3 point corner shot. Rules changes to prevent defenders from re-directing the ball handler (Derek Fisher retired just in time). Legalizing zone defenses that effectively put an end to much of the back to the basket game plus stifling the Barkley/Malone kind of ISO play down low. The world seeing the value of scoring before the defense gets set (part of the 3 point explosion. Changes to the way Flagrant fouls are called, impacting the way big men protect the key and so on.

If you watch 3 Suns telecasts in a row you won't be able to escape Eddie talking about how he wishes he could play in today's game. He constantly harps on the fact that you can't touch a shooter on the perimeter at all. Watch any broadcast and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a single game where they don't mention how much easier it is for the ball handler to penetrate in today's game because of changes in the way fouls are called on the perimeter. And it's rare that they won't mention the need to have one of your big men capable of taking their defender 15 feet or more from the basket.

The big man has not gone the way of the dinosaur, neither has defense. But scoring guards are almost a necessity in today's NBA and big men are more likely to be the Euro type of big than the big's of the 80's and 90's.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

According to the Rockets insider the Suns are holding out because they are trying to include Goran Dragic in a deal for DeMarcus Cousins, hoping that the Kings will listen to offers before the deadline.

That's stupid. The tiny chance that the Kings would be willing to trade Cousins to Phoenix isn't worth the risk of losing out on a good deal while you hold your breath for the home run. If I'm the Kings, I tell McDonough, "Sure, we're thinking about moving him" just to string the Suns along and let them hurt their own chances.

 

[Mainstreet]

That's stupid. The tiny chance that the Kings would be willing to trade Cousins to Phoenix isn't worth the risk of losing out on a good deal while you hold your breath for the home run. If I'm the Kings, I tell McDonough, "Sure, we're thinking about moving him" just to string the Suns along and let them hurt their own chances.

If the Suns were going to trade for Cousins in a fantasy scenario it might look something like this. The article was written by By Kellan Olson of SB Nation. IT would have to be traded elsewhere.

Kings receive: Alex Len, T.J. Warren, Gerald Green, Miles Plumlee, LAL 2015 first-round pick (top five protected in 2015, top three protected in 2016), PHX 2016 first-round pick

Suns receive: DeMarcus Cousins

I guess the deck could be reshuffled to include Dragic.

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2...-should-make-the-godfather-offer-for-demarcus

 

[elindholm]

If the Suns were going to trade for Cousins in a fantasy scenario it might look something like this.

Kings receive: Alex Len, T.J. Warren, Gerald Green, Miles Plumlee, LAL 2015 first-round pick (top five protected in 2015, top three protected in 2016), PHX 2016 first-round pick

Suns receive: DeMarcus Cousins

I'm very high on Cousins, but that's an overpayment.

 

[Covert Rain]

I've tried writing it up half dozen different ways and I keep losing my train of thought. Sorry. Just google "has the NBA game changed" and I'm sure you'll find a much better explanation than I'm capable of providing but I'll cover a few of the basics.

Analytics and the effectiveness of the 3 point corner shot. Rules changes to prevent defenders from re-directing the ball handler (Derek Fisher retired just in time). Legalizing zone defenses that effectively put an end to much of the back to the basket game plus stifling the Barkley/Malone kind of ISO play down low. The world seeing the value of scoring before the defense gets set (part of the 3 point explosion. Changes to the way Flagrant fouls are called, impacting the way big men protect the key and so on.

If you watch 3 Suns telecasts in a row you won't be able to escape Eddie talking about how he wishes he could play in today's game. He constantly harps on the fact that you can't touch a shooter on the perimeter at all. Watch any broadcast and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a single game where they don't mention how much easier it is for the ball handler to penetrate in today's game because of changes in the way fouls are called on the perimeter. And it's rare that they won't mention the need to have one of your big men capable of taking their defender 15 feet or more from the basket.

The big man has not gone the way of the dinosaur, neither has defense. But scoring guards are almost a necessity in today's NBA and big men are more likely to be the Euro type of big than the big's of the 80's and 90's.

Steve

That's an interesting take and I can see that if your goal is to score the most points humanly possible. I know they changed the rules so you can put up more points. I guess if your end game is scoring more points...that is a great point. However, even if the game evolves so that your traditional big man is more of an outside scorer (a la Dirk), that just means that where they get their points changes. Not that having a big man is any less a necessity for a being a long term title contender.

I guess only time will tell but I don't see teams wrapping up almost max money at the PG & SG position at the same time becoming the norm for title chasing teams even with all the changes.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm very high on Cousins, but that's an overpayment.

I agree it's overpayment but if the Suns were really wanting Cousins I think they would have to offer something close to this hypothetical trade to get the Kings attention.

So we agree, the Suns should not risk losing out on a good deal for the remote chance of getting Cousins unless the Suns are willing to over pay. And If they are prepared to over pay for Cousins, put the chips on the table now, don't wait.

 

[FArting]

Saw this posted on realgm

The discussion today is about what exactly Dragic is requesting and if we offer him a large contract (the best offer) if he will take it.

After today (maybe tonight if it leaks) but tomorrow look for a smaller trade. If the talks don't go well and he wants out and wants to be the ball handler (this is possible) we will look to move Dragic by Thursday. Per his request. We will not under any circumstance be trading Bledsoe.

McD knows with a true SG Bledsoe is the best point guard for us given his contract.

Our preference. Let me REPEAT. OUR PREFERENCE: Is to keep Dragic long term with Bledsoe. That is our priority. Everyone else is up for grabs for the right place. Even Len. Especially Green and the twins. And we are willing to overpay to get a star. Just not many stars available.

Cousins is not up on the block at the moment. We've tried.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1372450&start=1140#start_here

 

[AzStevenCal]

That's an interesting take and I can see that if your goal is to score the most points humanly possible. I know they changed the rules so you can put up more points. I guess if your end game is scoring more points...that is a great point. However, even if the game evolves so that your traditional big man is more of an outside scorer (a la Dirk), that just means that where they get their points changes. Not that having a big man is any less a necessity for a being a long term title contender.

I guess only time will tell but I don't see teams wrapping up almost max money at the PG/SG position become the norm for title chasing teams even with all the changes.

Well, I think the idea of big men has changed to big man more than anything. Dirk was most effective from mid-range and beyond and was clearly the reason that Dallas team won it all but it doesn't happen without Chandler. I think you still need a good starting low post player (center or PF) not to mention a decent backup but I'm not sure a combo like Malone and Eaton could thrive today.

Anyway, 20 years ago the point guard was often ignored when you analyzed a team's success. He had to set up the offense and that was pretty much it. In today's game he needs to be able to score too and as such he becomes a more important part of a team's success. 30 million against last year's salary cap sounds like too much but in a few years it will likely be around a third of a team's payroll. In the 80's you probably still wouldn't want to spend a third of your money on your starting guards but it makes sense today.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

I'm very high on Cousins, but that's an overpayment.

Its not an overpayment since we're not even trading Bledsoe or Dragic.

SAC wouldn't even pick up the phone unless one of those two is on the table.

I'd give up anything besides Bledsoe to bring in a big man like Cousins here. Bledsoe is good friends with him so he stays but anyone and everyone else, absolutely on the table.

All pointless though because there's very little chance that SAC trades him especially within their own division.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Its not an overpayment since we're not even trading Bledsoe or Dragic.

SAC wouldn't even pick up the phone unless one of those two is on the table.

I'd give up anything besides Bledsoe to bring in a big man like Cousins here. Bledsoe is good friends with him so he stays but anyone and everyone else, absolutely on the table.

All pointless though because there's very little chance that SAC trades him especially within their own division.

I really doubt that division will even cross their minds. Historically it was an issue but now that you play just about every team in your conference 4 times per season, you'd pretty much have to cross off half of the teams in the league if you were worried about something like that. It's a big deal in MLB, it's not that big of a deal in the NBA IMO. It's still highly unlikely they'll trade him and even more unlikely that we'll have what they are looking for but if they start looking for a deal, I don't believe they'd hesitate to hear our offer.

Steve

 

[FutureSuperstar]

On any improbable Cousins deal - The Suns would have to give up a lot and the key I think is to give up players that the Kings (or other teams if 3 team deal) value EQUAL to or GREATER than the Suns value those players ...

This means I am against including guys like Len, Warren, and Goodwin in really any trade because the Suns value them more highly than other teams (in Warren and Goodwin's case, other teams would just assume those guys aren't looking good in practice, etc. .... If they are doing good "behind the scenes", no reason for Suns to trade when their value is low).

And this is not a type of "Not willing to give them up for Cousins" argument. It's basically if Len is an 8, but the Kings value him as a 5, Goodwin is a 5 - But Kings value him as 3 ... Instead of giving up both of them, it would be better to give up the Morris Twins (Who maybe the Kings - and Suns - value as a 10 combined) - Both parties would like the deal better ...

That means in any blockbuster deal, the Suns would need to trade guys that have established value - On the Suns roster, that's basically everybody but the young guys. The Morris Twins, the 3 PG's, Green, and Plumlee are the guys that have value to other teams and them, along w/ picks, should be the only available guys in any deal.

I really hope IT is traded ... His talents are just not needed here - Even w/o him, the bench will be fine. We'll still have Green/Morris off the bench - And Dragic/Bledsoe will probably be running PG anyway ...

 

[sunsfan88]

The Los Angeles Lakers and New York Knicks have expressed interest in Miles Plumlee.

The Phoenix Suns are trying to accommodate a trade of Plumlee.

Both the Lakers and Knicks are reluctant to add salary for the 15-16 season, but Plumlee is set to make just $2.1 million.

https://twitter.com/sam_amick/status/567775635406200832

NYK doesn't really have anything we'd want. Lakers have the Rockets 2015 first rd pick so that could work.

 

[Mainstreet]

NYK doesn't really have anything we'd want. Lakers have the Rockets 2015 first rd pick so that could work.

Plus the Lakers own the protection on the Lakers' pick the Suns own. They might be persuaded to remove it if they like the trade.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

NO WAY is Plumlee worth removing that protection... IMO.

 

[sunsfan88]

Plus the Lakers own the protection on the Lakers' pick the Suns own. They might be persuaded to remove it if they like the trade.

I don't think they would remove that protection for Plumlee. Probably not even for a Dragic trade.

 

[BC867]

Well, I think the idea of big men has changed to big man more than anything. Dirk was most effective from mid-range and beyond and was clearly the reason that Dallas team won it all but it doesn't happen without Chandler.

Bingo! The Mavs won their Championship when Chandler was the big man in the middle, though not the star of the team.

 

[Covert Rain]

Well, I think the idea of big men has changed to big man more than anything. Dirk was most effective from mid-range and beyond and was clearly the reason that Dallas team won it all but it doesn't happen without Chandler. I think you still need a good starting low post player (center or PF) not to mention a decent backup but I'm not sure a combo like Malone and Eaton could thrive today.

Anyway, 20 years ago the point guard was often ignored when you analyzed a team's success. He had to set up the offense and that was pretty much it. In today's game he needs to be able to score too and as such he becomes a more important part of a team's success. 30 million against last year's salary cap sounds like too much but in a few years it will likely be around a third of a team's payroll. In the 80's you probably still wouldn't want to spend a third of your money on your starting guards but it makes sense today.

Steve

The only reason I brought up Dirk is because of the European style type player. A big man who can shoot lights out from outside the paint. You are also correct they don't get it done without Chandler. However, they don't get it done without Dirk either. Which means you either need a legit big man who can both score and play defense or two that can combine to do both. If either was some filler scrub...no title.

Just like the above scenario the same applies to your guards. I don't think you need both guard positions to score. I think you do just fine with either a distributing PG with a good shooting SG or a PG who can do both with a defensive minded SG.

I don't think there is any evidence that to win a title in the NBA you need both to be scoring machines even today. As above, I think you need a legit big man to get it done if history is any indication.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The only reason I brought up Dirk is because of the European style type player. A big man who can shoot lights out from outside the paint. You are also correct they don't get it done without Chandler. However, they don't get it done without Dirk either. Which means you either need a legit big man who can both score and play defense or two that can combine to do both. If either was some filler scrub...no title.

Just like the above scenario the same applies to your guards. I don't think you need both guard positions to score. I think you do just fine with either a distributing PG with a good shooting SG or a PG who can do both with a defensive minded SG.

I don't think there is any evidence that to win a title in the NBA you need both to be scoring machines even today. As above, I think you need a legit big man to get it done if history is any indication.

I think you're addressing a point that isn't in dispute. The question was "can you be competitive paying 30 million to your starting guards. I think the answer is a resounding YES. Right now, the luxury line is roughly 77 million, the floor is 57 million and the cap is at 63. 30 million for your guards is scary with a cap of 63. But in the season after next, the cap is expected to jump to north of 90 million (that's the cap itself, not the luxury tax number). A lot of teams will be paying their starting guards 30 million plus. Contender or not, we'll likely be one of them.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

It looks like we'll be trading Goran by Thursday. It's being reported pretty much everywhere that we've agreed to honor his request for a trade.

Steve

 

[Cheesebeef]

It looks like we'll be trading Goran by Thursday. It's being reported pretty much everywhere that we've agreed to honor his request for a trade.

Steve

Gotta say that's a black eye for this FO. Signing and drafting another PG at this point makes them look like the Matt Millen of the NBA.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It looks like we'll be trading Goran by Thursday. It's being reported pretty much everywhere that we've agreed to honor his request for a trade.

Steve

if he wants to go to LA, the trade is simple... take protection off that pick this year. We make that deal, I'm okay with the trade if that's all we can get.

 

[sunsfan88]

if he wants to go to LA, the trade is simple... take protection off that pick this year. We make that deal, I'm okay with the trade if that's all we can get.

If we trade him to the Lakers, we don't need the protection off. Their not gonna be bottom 5 with Dragic anyway.

 

[sunsfan88]

Gotta say that's a black eye for this FO. Signing and drafting another PG at this point makes them look like the Matt Millen of the NBA.

Their lead PG leads this team to 48 wins with Bledsoe and then gets All NBA recognition and then the Suns reward him by drafting and signing every PG that they could find.

I don't blame Dragic one bit.

 

[Cheesebeef]

If we trade him to the Lakers, we don't need the protection off. Their not gonna be bottom 5 with Dragic anyway.

pass that doobie this way. Put Dragic on that team, they're still beyond atrocious. See the 2012 Suns for proof of that.

 

[Covert Rain]

Gotta say that's a black eye for this FO. Signing and drafting another PG at this point makes them look like the Matt Millen of the NBA.

Agreed. The funny thing is with all the guard acquisitions just about every analyst and a bunch of fans were asking wth this front office was doing.

Now after this? The hits keep coming for this FO.

Also, I am NOT trading Goran to the freaking Lakers without removing that protection. Screw that. Not in our division. With our luck they sign him long term, they make a major acquisition that compliments him and he haunts us until retirement.