two years?

[scotsman13]

looking at this team and the way they are playing now. the development of the players, lottery picks and FA signings where do you think that the suns will be in a couple of years?
i.e. the frontline of amare, marion, lampe, zarko, jake and draft lottery pick (center) becomes one of the feared frontlines in the nba and one of the most fun to watch. amare joins marion for the 2006 allstar game. the backcourt of milos, johnson, barbosa and jacobson have developed into one of the better back courts in the nba. barbosa is leading the nba in steals per game. jj is running the best shooting % of any nba guards with over 20 minutes a game. a lot of people that jj is the suns true point guard but the teams system looks at the back court as just having guards. milos is run away hit in his rookie and gets some talk as the rookie of the year but most sports writers dont view him as a rookie because of his age and as such dont vote for him. his second year in the nba is even better as he is learning how to deal with nba game.
the suns develop into a team that is very much like the 94-95 sonics in a pressing trapping defense and on the offense they are running an offense that is very close to what the kings are running now. passing is one of the real strenghts of the team. everyone shares the ball and plays with a lot of emotion. head coach d'antoni has become the longest serving suns coach since westphal and win 52 games this season and are looking for a good run into the playsoffs this year after their return in 95. most reporters believe that the suns are only a year or away making a run at the championship.

come on guys where do you see this team?

 

[cardsunsfan]

Sounds good to me

 

[elindholm]

i.e. the frontline of amare, marion, lampe, zarko, jake and draft lottery pick (center) becomes one of the feared frontlines in the nba and one of the most fun to watch.

Unlikely, in my opinion. I think the expectations that some people on this board have for Lampe are way, way, way too high. I expect the Suns to struggle at center for the forseeable future.

amare joins marion for the 2006 allstar game.

I think Stoudemire has a good chance of being there. I'm not too sure about Marion.

the backcourt of milos, johnson, barbosa and jacobson have developed into one of the better back courts in the nba.

That seems possible, if Johnson really can keep his head on straight. I'm not all that optimistic about Vujanic, since it seems like there are two or three Euro guards each year who are supposed to be awesome and don't pan out (Antoine Rigedeau, anyone?). But Barbosa's quickness is a huge asset.

barbosa is leading the nba in steals per game.

It will be tough for him, because I don't see him as developing into a big scorer, and you have to be a "star" in order to get away with stuff on the defensive end. But I do think he'll get a lot of steals.

jj is running the best shooting % of any nba guards with over 20 minutes a game.

Hmm, I wouldn't count on that, since the Suns won't have enough weapons to get Johnson easy looks reliably.

 

[Ryanwb]

Realistically speaking, the Suns still do not have the talent at this point to get out of the 1st round of the playoffs. Amare is an awesome talent, but his injuries are not allowing him to develop as much as I thought he would this year.

Joe Johnson's continued development is going to be key here, the man is an awesome talent.

Shawn Marion is also a problem here, his contract is going to limit where the Suns are in 3-4 years and he still hasn't proven to me he is worth it. He is a role player, not a dominant star player. What are the Suns going to do when Amare's rookie contract is up, what kind of money is he going to demand? What about Joe Johnson? The only way this team is going to get to the championship is to move Marion, he is a luxury this team cannot afford.

 

[slinslin]

Amare hasn't develloped as much as you thought? He played awesome.
I never expected him to be such a complete player so quickly.

You must have thought he would be a MVP candidate. Without the injuries Amare would probably be running for the ASG right now.

 

[Phill11]

Originally posted by slinslin
Amare hasn't develloped as much as you thought? He played awesome.
I never expected him to be such a complete player so quickly.

You must have thought he would be a MVP candidate. Without the injuries Amare would probably be running for the ASG right now.

Amare has played awesome in the minutes hes played, but he really hasn't improved much from last year.

 

[slinslin]

Shooting
Passing
Dribbling
Defense

He improved everywhere.

 

[nathan]

PG
Shaun Livingston (draft)
Milos Vujanic

SG
Joe Johnson
Leandro Barbosa
Casey Jacobsen

SF
Shawn Marion
Hakim Warrick (draft)

PF
Amare Stoudemire
Zarko Cabarkapa

C
Maciej Lampe
Jake Voskuhl
FA

 

[scotsman13]

Originally posted by elindholm
jj is running the best shooting % of any nba guards with over 20 minutes a game.

Hmm, I wouldn't count on that, since the Suns won't have enough weapons to get Johnson easy looks reliably.

since the trade (11 games now) jj has been shooting .492 from the field. right now that would tie him for 11th spot for the year in shooting %. that is tied with garrett. there is only 1 guard above him and that is sam cassell at 10th shooting .499%. so is it possable for jj to have the best shooting % at the guard spot in the nba? yes it is, his game is mostly that of shooting the mid range shoot and he is very good at it.

 

[slinslin]

Originally posted by nm132
PG
Shaun Livingston (draft)
Milos Vujanic

Just a feeling.

Shaun Livingston will need years to make any type of impact and will never be a PG.
I would much rather have Telfair.

Also if we want a big PG we could also use Joe Johnson. I doubt Livingston will be anywhere near as good as Joe Johnson for some years.

If we got Kobe, I would put JJ at PG, Kobe at SG and Barbosa and Vujanic at the 1,2 plus a true PG like Telfair on the bench.

I could live with Warrick although I am not that high on this guy.


I like PG Telfair, SG Iguodala, G/F Luke Jackson, SF Josh Smith, PF Dwight Howard, PF Emeka Okafor

Luke Jackson is my sleeper.
6'7 22ppg 7.5rpg 5apg 1spg 51%FG 45%3s 90%FTs Senior out of Oregon.

Though Iguodala shut him down.

 

[George O'Brien]

Two years is a decent time frame. The Suns have the youngest backcourt in the NBA and their core has only an average of 2 1/2 years experience. Young teams are frustrating, but they could be very good.

I would not be shocked if the Suns made the playoffs next season even without major moves. They have proven they can compete with top teams even with Amare unavaivailable and Zarko not recovered. Get everyone healthy and this is a playoff team.

To get beyond the first round is more uncertain. In an ideal world, all of their young players will improve dramatically and the Suns will be a championship team wthout having to make a big a move. Logic says that this is a long shot. I would not be surprised if the Suns make a major move in the next two years, although I think it is too early to tell what they would do.

The most likely scenrio is a trade such as the one that brought Barkley to Phoenix: one really good player and two decent players for one great one. But Sir Charles was the finishing touch on an already very good team - not the starting point for a rebuilding team.

To make that kind of deal, the Suns have to wait for their young players to be worth something and their core players to be ready to contend.

BTW, I think it is very important that the Suns get into the playoffs next season. Playoff experience is extremely important. Teams do not go from being a lottery team to winning it all in one year.

 

[scotsman13]

yea saleries are going to be be an issue here shortly. (another reason i dont think that the suns are going to go after kobe). you have marion is max, jj is a year away from a new contract and i think if he can keep up the way he has been playing he will be looking 8 to 9 million starting a year. and then in 2 years more you have amare up for a new contract and if he can pick up his rebounding and passing he will be a max contract. that brings the suns back to about 70% of the cap gone in 3 players.

 

[elindholm]

since the trade (11 games now) jj has been shooting .492 from the field.

Then, to be fair, you should compare that percentage with the best 11-game stretch of every other guard in the league. Getting hot for a few weeks is easier than sustaining it for a season.

 

[cardsunsfan]

I think he can keep it up, especially if the referees start respecting him... hmmm Marion is getting back to form, Johnson is playing great, Stoudemire will be back soon. Barbosa is improving and so is Jake... Looks good to me.

 

[nathan]

Originally posted by slinslin
Just a feeling.

Shaun Livingston will need years to make any type of impact and will never be a PG.
I would much rather have Telfair.

Livingston will make an impact close to the same time Telfair does. Of all the options I would prefer Milos pan out. I like Barbosa, but don't think he will ever be that great of a playmaker

I like PG Telfair, SG Iguodala, G/F Luke Jackson, SF Josh Smith, PF Dwight Howard, PF Emeka Okafor

I would love to see the Suns win the lottery, get Okafor or Howard and then start them at C. In a few years the question "Who's gonna guard Shaq?" won't matter anymore as Shaq will could be retired or injured. This is his 12th year and injuries seem to be catching up.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by nm132

I would love to see the Suns win the lottery, get Okafor or Howard and then start them at C.

I'm not convinced Howard is going to be a center. Dwight's 20 to 25 pounds lighter thant Amare was when he came out and is less than Zarko. I don't think you take Howard as a center, just as an impact player.

I can see Okafor as a situational "small center", but he will be a PF most of the time. You play him 15 minutes at PF and 15 and center, and he ends up with starter minutes.

 

[cly2tw]

Originally posted by Ryanwb
The only way this team is going to get to the championship is to move Marion, he is a luxury this team cannot afford.

So true!

The best bet for the long term outlook of the Suns franchise is to sign Kobe, the second best bet is to trade Marion for cap room regardless.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by cly2tw
So true!

The best bet for the long term outlook of the Suns franchise is to sign Kobe, the second best bet is to trade Marion for cap room regardless.

So this team is better with Kobe, then with Kobe AND Marion?

 

[sunsfn]

I really do not think the suns will trade Marion any time soon....!

I do not think Okafor is as tall as Amare. However, if he is available I would think the suns will take him. He just is not going to play center in the NBA.

The suns really need a shot blocker that has some height so he does not have to jump as much as Amare............eventually Amare is going to quit jumping like he does, if not he will consantly hurt himself. All of these young players quit jumping because they know it will injure them.

The slam dunk contest at the all-star game is a good indication, the players rarely play more than two years at this and some will not go back the 2nd time. It is just too risky for their career. Many players have said this over the years.

 

[cly2tw]

Originally posted by Chaplin
So this team is better with Kobe, then with Kobe AND Marion?

It's about how much you want to pay your swingmen on the team. Kobe/Marion/JJ/Zarko would command a total of 38 mil a year together for SF/SG alone, if JJ and Zarko were to get 5 mil each, the way we have been hoping they would develop. Add Amare's max contract, how much do you want to pay your Centers and PGs, for Barbosa, Vujanic, Okafor in the long run?

If among Amare/Kobe/Marion/JJ/Zarko for PF/SF/SG, you have to get rid of one player to have a best combination of talent and financial reasonability, which one do you want to get rid of? I'd repeat Ryan's word: "Marion's is the luxary this team can't afford."

 

[Suns_fan69]

I can see how jumping in traffic would be extremely hazardous (my glass ankles are a testament to this) but jumping for the slam dunk contest should be relatively low risk for them. I refuse to believe they would use that as an excuse to not participate.

I think more players refuse because they don't want to be known as one dimensional players (like Marion).

And also, I don't know what some people's fascination with trading marion is all about. Cly, it seems every second post from you is about trading marion. I think we can all agree that he is slightly overpaid but I think his last few games should provide enough evidence that this team is better with him.

 

[cly2tw]

Originally posted by Suns_fan69
And also, I don't know what some people's fascination with trading marion is all about. Cly, it seems every second post from you is about trading marion. I think we can all agree that he is slightly overpaid but I think his last few games should provide enough evidence that this team is better with him.

A one dimentional player you also conceded he is, he will always be underachieving in the playoffs, when the defense gets tight. This current team is mediorc, it doesn't say nothing about how his talent would improve Suns' chance of winning a championship in the future more than getting rid of his contract to free cap room would.

Ask yourself the question, if you have say 56 mil cap room to sign players to their market value, would you want to have Marion on your team? For what salary? Any team who has Marion as its 2nd scoring option has no chance to get out of the first round in playoff, not to mention he is a mediorc defender at best. If you are not the Knicks or the Mavericks, you don't pay max your 4th or 5th option, agree?

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Honestly now, I think some people are having a hard grasp on the fact this team can support a decent amount salary.

Assuming we obtain Kobe for a max Salary, then max out Amare, with Shawn we will have 36-42 million tied up in those 3 players once all their contracts hit(and depending on the year).

WE DONT NEED CAP ROOM AFTER THAT.

The suns have aquired a solid core of role players. JJ, Barbosa, Lampe (maybe), Vujanic (who knows), Casey, Zarko, Voskuhl. We already have these people under contract.

Yes, some of them will need to be extended throughout the next decade. However, we have Bird Rights on these players. We can match offers they will get as RFAs, or just extend them.

Will some leave? Of course, but we will replace some with furture rookies, and low level FAs.



You guys realize that Phoenix is like the 4th largest city in the country right? It is also top 5 in growth I believe. The city can support a high payroll. One of the reasons JC is building up down town, (AWA and BOB) is to make it a true center of the city. The light rail system will help this when it arrives in 2012 or whatever it is. They are building a new hotel downtown by 2008 I believe.

This team can support a 60 million dollar payroll if they consistantly win. For the first year in the a while, the average league attendance isn't dropping. In fact, David Stern recently said that as an average they are back to about 90 percent of capacity. As soon as the team has star power, and a winning record, the arena will sell out. The Kobe Bryant and Amare Stoudemire jersey's will fly off the shelves.


If JC was willing to have a 60 million dollar payroll with a loosing team, he will accept it with a winning team. I think that much is obvious. Penny and Steph's contracts were moved to same the team money this year. However, they are expected to be filled with new max contracts. That is the nature of the business.



I just can't understand how people can claim that he is "a luxary we cannot afford". If someone had an idea on WHO to replace him with (now, not in the future) I might understand, but this constant moving him for cap space is just well.....stupid.

 

[Suns_fan69]

I never conceded he was a one dimensional player. I said that he didn't want to be known as a one dimensional player and that's why he didn't participate in the dunk contest 2 years ago (or was it 3?).

If I had the option of having anybody, of course I wouldn't have Marion. But I can't, and Marion is not a bad settle. Is he worth the max? Debatable, but I'm not going to trade him because he's making 12 million (or whatever the max these days is) when he should be making 10.

And it's ridiculous to think that Shaq and Marion wouldn't get out of the first round because they could. Or even Duncan and Marion.

I agree that you don't pay the max for your 4th or 5th option, but I don't mind paying him to be the second option behind Stoudemire, or 3rd behind JJ as well.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Well, the cap is at 45 now, and might raise to 47 mil next year. We don't know how the new CBA will affect things, so we will use current rules.

Say we sign Kobe for 14 mil his first year. By year 3 he will be at at least 16 mil. (George gave me the first year salary).

Amare's max extension will kick in that year, at about 11 million.

So 27 million committed to two players.

Assume JJ gets 5.5 million that year (Maggettes salary).

That is 33 million.

If Casey keeps playing well, put him at 3 million.

Put Zarko at 2 million (still in rookie contract I believe), put Barbosa at 1.8 million (totally made up, but sounds right). Vujanic at 2.5 million.

Total of 6.3 million.

That puts us at 39.3 million.

Voskuhl at 2 million. Lampe at 2.5 million.

Now at 43.8 million

I will stop there.


Say the cap rises to 50 million. That leaves us with 6.2 million for a FA.

Can you replace Marion for that much money? I say no. That makes his salary irrelevent to everyone besides Jerry Colangelo and his partners.



Some of the numbers are arbitrary, but not out of line. My point is, with a max Kobe and Amare, even if we took away Marion, we wouldn't be far enough under the cap to sign anyone that could do half the things he does. Therefor it doesn't matter one bit to anyone but the person writing the check.

The suns are in a unique position. They have a ton of good young talent, locked up in rookie contracts. They potentially can sign a max FA this summer, with one already on the books. Then they can extend everyone else when their contracts is up. Whether or not Marion is being paid 10 million doesn't matter. Franchises kill to have the opportunity we have.


That make sense to anyone else???