two years?

[thegrahamcrackr]

BTW, am I saying Marion is worth a max deal?

It depends on the night, sometimes yes, sometimes no.

But it doesn't matter anymore. As long as we aren't trying to trade him, all that matters is he is locked up for the next 5 years.

 

[Chaplin]

I think that is a great post, Graham. I agree with you 100%. I just find it hilarious that there is so much gloom and doom on this board right now, when we are in a terrific position.

Look at the bottom 20 teams, heck, the bottom 25 teams in the league, and we are still unique in that we have a lot of youth, but it's youth that really is going to be pretty darn good. We aren't like the Clippers or the Hawks, or even the Cavs, who are young and have some good young players, but they are not top-to-bottom looking at a very good future. Lebron and Boozer are nice players, but will Cleveland ever smell the NBA Finals with them? Probably not.

 

[Ryanwb]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
Honestly now, I think some people are having a hard grasp on the fact this team can support a decent amount salary.

Assuming we obtain Kobe for a max Salary, then max out Amare, with Shawn we will have 36-42 million tied up in those 3 players once all their contracts hit(and depending on the year).

WE DONT NEED CAP ROOM AFTER THAT.

Okay and lets say somebody needs microfracture surgery like Penny, or all of the sudden sucks like Googs.....is this team just supposed to weather the storm? I am sorry, but I cannot think of one example of a team that was able to be competitive (ie win Championship) with 3 MAX salary players. Marion is the odd man out.

This team has been burned countless times in the past decade with overpaid players who can't stay healthy. Danny Manning, Hardaway, Googs, KJ, Chapman etc

Does that mean they should never have a max guy again? No, it just means they need to situate themselves before they layout guarnanteed money for 6 years again.

Bottom line, you have slight flexability with 2 max players, that all goes out the window with 3

 

[F-Dog]

The way the salary system is currently set up, most teams should have (at least) two max players. Is Marion a top-45 player? Of course.



In two years, a couple of the players we think of as integral to the team's future will be gone, and at least a couple of new players will be significant factors for the Suns. It wouldn't surprise me if Voskuhl, Lampe, Joe J and/or Marion were gone by then. (It also wouldn't surprise me if any of those players were still around.) Vujanic will be here, and the Suns will have to add a center or two and probably a G/F as well.

I think that at least half of the Suns of 2006 will be foreigners, and there's a good chance the Suns will have some sort of quasi-farm system deal worked out with one of the FIBA teams in Europe. They might own the rights to one or two players who are several years away from playing in the NBA.

I hope that both Amare and D'Antoni are both fixtures for the team by that point.


Of course, I could be wrong.

 

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by Ryanwb
Okay and lets say somebody needs microfracture surgery like Penny, or all of the sudden sucks like Googs.....is this team just supposed to weather the storm? I am sorry, but I cannot think of one example of a team that was able to be competitive (ie win Championship) with 3 MAX salary players. Marion is the odd man out.

The whole concept of max salary is too new to make this kind of blanket statement, IMO. I mean, you could argue that the Bulls were carrying three max salaries in one player when Jordan was making $30+m.

In any case, the Kings are carrying two max-type contracts right now (Bibby and Vlade) and a super-max contract (Webber), and it didn't prevent them from going after Brad Miller when the occasion warranted it.

The important thing is to have players that are valuable as trade chips, and the Suns should have plenty of those in the next few years thanks to the draft.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Ryanwb
Okay and lets say somebody needs microfracture surgery like Penny, or all of the sudden sucks like Googs.....is this team just supposed to weather the storm? I am sorry, but I cannot think of one example of a team that was able to be competitive (ie win Championship) with 3 MAX salary players. Marion is the odd man out.

This team has been burned countless times in the past decade with overpaid players who can't stay healthy. Danny Manning, Hardaway, Googs, KJ, Chapman etc

Does that mean they should never have a max guy again? No, it just means they need to situate themselves before they layout guarnanteed money for 6 years again.

Bottom line, you have slight flexability with 2 max players, that all goes out the window with 3

But you can't construct a team based on the off-chance you'll have a huge injury. Why do you think Penny is still in the league? Or why do you think KJ lasted as long as he did in the NBA?

Who would you lay guaranteed money out for? I'd sign Tim Duncan to a max contract for as long as I can. But what if 2 weeks into his Suns career he tears his ACL? Would you go on record to say that we shouldn't have offered him a huge contract?

My point is, you can't construct a professional basketball team based on the possibility that there might be an injury--you do that with solid role players--most of which we are currently watching blossom in front of our eyes. In fact, I'll go as far as to say that with Kobe, we would be only one solid role-playing center away from greatness. As it stands now, we are sitting pretty good--BUT, this group here, even when Amare becomes a superstar, will be hard pressed to win a championship. That's where the value of a Stephon Marbury or (gasp) a Jason Kidd comes into play--that 3rd of the "Big 3" that can put us over the top.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Well the Penny and Googs arguements are interesting. However, both of those signings had problems from the start. Tom was overpaid to begin with, and Penny had and injury history.

Now when you have high flying players like Shawn and Amare, there is a greater risk of them being hurt. Like Chap said however, you can't run the game expecting an injury.

Back to Penny and Googs. If there is a freak injury to one of our max players again, I think the suns proved it is possible to still move them, and actually get into a great situation.


My main point was that giving up Marion doesn't give us extra flexibilty. All it does is effect the pockets of the Cs, which is fine by me.

 

[Wally]

I guess I'm the only one on the board that believes Kobe would not be worth the risk. Perhaps it's because of the Hardaway & Hill type deals where a team gets burned badly. Where is Kobe now? On the bench with a shoulder injury and it's not the first time for the same shoulder. In fact, he had the shoulder operated on to "fix" it. His style of play is to jump into the defender to draw a foul. I guess he could change that style, but if he did, would he be the same player? I say no. And I also say no to Kobe.

We have some very exciting young players on this team, including Marion, and I would like to see them develop as a team. I'm even beginning to like CJ

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Wally
I guess I'm the only one on the board that believes Kobe would not be worth the risk. Perhaps it's because of the Hardaway & Hill type deals where a team gets burned badly. Where is Kobe now? On the bench with a shoulder injury and it's not the first time for the same shoulder. In fact, he had the shoulder operated on to "fix" it. His style of play is to jump into the defender to draw a foul. I guess he could change that style, but if he did, would he be the same player? I say no. And I also say no to Kobe.

We have some very exciting young players on this team, including Marion, and I would like to see them develop as a team. I'm even beginning to like CJ

Again, this is not a team made to seriously contend for a championship. I don't understand why people don't SEE that!

 

[George O'Brien]

I find little in cly2tw's statement that agree with.

Originally posted by cly2tw
A one dimentional player you also conceded he (Marion) is, he will always be underachieving in the playoffs, when the defense gets tight.

I did not get the impression that Marion had such a terrible series against hte Spurs. He did as well as everyone else did - win two games.

This current team is mediorc, it doesn't say nothing about how his talent would improve Suns' chance of winning a championship in the future more than getting rid of his contract to free cap room would.

This team is not mediocre. It is young, really young. Getting an expensive free agent won't change that. Other than Kobe (a long shot at best), there is no one out there this summer who is likely to make a bigger impact on the team than Marion already does.

Ask yourself the question, if you have say 56 mil cap room to sign players to their market value, would you want to have Marion on your team? For what salary?

Yes, For as little as I can get away with paying.

There are some other guys I love to have, but unless they are availabe as free agents, it makes absolutely no difference to me.

Any team who has Marion as its 2nd scoring option has no chance to get out of the first round in playoff, not to mention he is a mediorc defender at best.

I'm guessing Marion will be the Sun's third scoring option. He averaged 21.2 ppg last year and 18.7 ppg this year in spite of a very slow start. I would guess his points will go down in a more balanced attack that includes JJ, Amare, and Barbosa all scoring in double figures. I would point out that the second highest scorer on the Kings is Bibby who is scoring 17 ppg.

I think Marion is a much better than average defender, but he can and should get better. I have felt his defense was very good the last few games which reflects better overall team defense.

If you are not the Knicks or the Mavericks, you don't pay max your 4th or 5th option, agree?

Marion is likely to be the Suns second or third option on offense. As the offense is adjusted to meet his needs, I think we will see his shooting get back to where it was a year ago: 21.1 ppg, 45.2% from the field, 38.7% for 3, 85.1% from the line, and 2.4 apg.

As I said before, show me another free agent who is as productive that can be had for less money, then I'd be interested. But just because there are some players who signed long term contracts before they were good is not very interesting.

 

[cly2tw]

A reasonable team for me would, for instance, be like Kobe/Amare/JJ to start at SG/SF/PF, with backups in Zarko/Marshall/Swift, a Vujanic/Barbosa PG rotation, and White/Jake/Lampe center by committee. If Marion is to replace either of the backups, I don't see we have much better chance to win in the playoffs. With the cap room Marion now occupies, my sample team is a financially implementable idea. So, Marion is a luxary the Suns can well do without! Let me stop at that. Note that Marion's personal stats are absolutely irrelevant in the above reasoning. Maybe none of Zarko/Marshall/Swift would have better stats than Marion is having with the current team of Suns. But my contention is that MY team has at least the same chance to win, if not better, than the one with Marion on it.

 

[Joe Mama]

I figure Shawn Marion isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Even though he has struggled for much of this season I get the feeling that the Colangelos really like him and his attitude. Besides his BYC status makes him very difficult to trade anyways. To me the entire offense looks better lately, and I think a big part of it is that JJ and Shawn Marion are both going to the basket more often. As many of you know I'm still not sold that he is a maximum player, but I disagree with the people that constantly bag on his ballhandling. He is intense did this many of the swingman out there. That's true. I think he's fine though. I also think the coaching staff is going to help him and many of the other players a lot with work during the off-season.

I figure the Suns will try their hardest to get Vujanic over here next season. They may try to ditch Howard Eiseley just to get more financially responsible and give them flexibility in free agency and trades. I think they'll try to keep at least one of their draft picks and try to get an experienced big man with a low-cost, short-term contract. I don't think they will go throwing their money around this summer.

Of course nothing would surprise me from this organization.

Joe Mama

 

[Djaughe]

Originally posted by scotsman13
looking at this team and the way they are playing now. the development of the players, lottery picks and FA signings where do you think that the suns will be in a couple of years?

I think the suns has a positive future with the young talent.

One item to point is that the other teams (i.e. lakers, kings, timberwolves, etc.) arn't getting any younger!

 

[Joe Mama]

I think if the Denver Nuggets lose Marcus Camby they will slide some season. His health is often overlooked because of the acquisitions of Andre Miller, Earl Boykins, and Carmelo Anthony, but he is having one of the biggest impacts on that team. Given his history of injuries and you have trouble seeing any team throw him really big money though. Also, they have been rumored to have a lot of interesting Quentin Richardson. I think if any team gives him much over the mid-level exception of making a big mistake.

If the Clippers can get their hands on Kobe Bryant I figure in a , the Suns, the Grizzlies, and the Nuggets are they good, young teams in the Western Conference.

Joe Mama

 

[scotsman13]

is ben wallace a superstar? all he does is play defence, block shots and rebound he isnt a good scorer, he doesnt have a low post game, and he isnt a person that can carry a team on his back. how about jason kidd (yea i know he isnt well liked here)? is he a superstar? all he does is pass, rebound, and play defense. his scoring sucks, he has never been a player who will win with his scoring, heck i have always felt that he wasnt even a good passer in the half court game, he has all kinds of personal problems off the court. how about scottie pippen in his prime? he could score, pass and defend, but he couldnt ever carry a team and he was always noted for being poor in the lockerroom. cedrick ceballos could score a lot and rebounded well but he never could play defense, but he was an allstar and carried the lakers back into the playoffs before they should have. now what does any of this have to do with the price of tea in china? nothing but marion is a better rebounder then anyone of these guys beside wallace, a better scorer then any but pippen and ced, a better passer then any but kidd and pippen and a better shot blocker then any but wallace. marion isnt your normal superstar but then there isnt a set path to being a superstar. here is a question for some of you do think that there are other teams out in the nba that would give marion a max contract? portland would love to have a player like him, chicago, new york (heck they think that hardaway is a good defender over there), new jersey, miami, orlando (marion would match up with tmac great), utah, denver, houston, san antonio, dallas, golden state, seattle, clippers, lakers, pistons? in everyone of these cases but new york and the lakers marion would be the best or second best player on their team. , no other small forward rebounds like him, very few small forwards get steals and blocks like he does and only one other player in the nba (most likely mvp) leads his team in 4 stats. so to say that marion isnt a worth the money that the suns are paying him is foolish and very short sighted

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by scotsman13
is ben wallace a superstar? all he does is play defence, block shots and rebound he isnt a good scorer, he doesnt have a low post game, and he isnt a person that can carry a team on his back. how about jason kidd (yea i know he isnt well liked here)? is he a superstar? all he does is pass, rebound, and play defense. his scoring sucks, he has never been a player who will win with his scoring, heck i have always felt that he wasnt even a good passer in the half court game, he has all kinds of personal problems off the court. how about scottie pippen in his prime? he could score, pass and defend, but he couldnt ever carry a team and he was always noted for being poor in the lockerroom. cedrick ceballos could score a lot and rebounded well but he never could play defense, but he was an allstar and carried the lakers back into the playoffs before they should have. now what does any of this have to do with the price of tea in china? nothing but marion is a better rebounder then anyone of these guys beside wallace, a better scorer then any but pippen and ced, a better passer then any but kidd and pippen and a better shot blocker then any but wallace. marion isnt your normal superstar but then there isnt a set path to being a superstar. here is a question for some of you do think that there are other teams out in the nba that would give marion a max contract? portland would love to have a player like him, chicago, new york (heck they think that hardaway is a good defender over there), new jersey, miami, orlando (marion would match up with tmac great), utah, denver, houston, san antonio, dallas, golden state, seattle, clippers, lakers, pistons? in everyone of these cases but new york and the lakers marion would be the best or second best player on their team. , no other small forward rebounds like him, very few small forwards get steals and blocks like he does and only one other player in the nba (most likely mvp) leads his team in 4 stats. so to say that marion isnt a worth the money that the suns are paying him is foolish and very short sighted

I think I agree with you, although putting hin paragraph breaks would be nice.

Realistally, the only SF I'm sure I would take over Marion is Predrag Stojakovic who is having an incredible year. He is terribly underpaid at $6.1 million. I'm not convinced he is an especially strong defender and he cannot rebound like Shawn, but this guy is a scoring machine.

Dirk Nowitzki makes a bit more money ($11.3 million) than Shawn ($10 million), but his numbers are not wildly better this season: 20.7 ppg, 44.3% from the field 9.1 rpg and Dirk is not known as an especially good defender.

Rashard Lewis is coming off contract this summer. He is currently making $7 million and is likely to get a major increase. He is currently scoring 18.5 ppg, 7.1 rpg, and is shooting 43.5% from the field. BTW, Lewis is the Sonics' second option on offense as long as Ray Allen is on the team.

I know that Marion's critics don't like taking about statistics because the stats do not support the claim that Marion is horribly overpaid. Compared to Stojakovic he is, but the same could be said about virtually every player in the NBA.

 

[scotsman13]

yea sorry about the paragraphs. i work for intel and i am getting calls all day long. sometimes when i try to make these posts i am getting a couple calls and just forget about making sence out of a post but what is int he fore front of my mind while i am also multi tasking about how to build a dang server for 40 to 50 people. what raid do you need and why you cant use a desktop board in a server.

 

[elindholm]

That's strange -- I thought for sure I'd read that Lewis signed an extension one or two summers ago. Was it a very short deal?

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
That's strange -- I thought for sure I'd read that Lewis signed an extension one or two summers ago. Was it a very short deal?

I use HoopsHype which only lists "official" contracts. Sometimes extensions are signed but not made official. Drives me crazy.

 

[Joe Mama]

Rashard Lewis signed a 6-7 year extension the summer before Shawn Marion got his extension.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
Rashard Lewis signed a 6-7 year extension the summer before Shawn Marion got his extension.

Joe Mama

I did some web searching. Apparently he signed a 7 year, $60 million deal before the 2002-03 season. Part of the problem is that the deal has another $15 million in incentives.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Yeah, I remember he was asking for around 80 million (same amount Shawn got the next year). Seattle balked, and after talks with Houston and Dallas, he resigned. Heavy heavy incentives I guess. I remember part of it is tied to being an all star.

 

[SunsTzu]

Actually Shawn signed his max extension 1st in the summer of '02. The Suns offered it to him as soon as they could, while Lewis' situation was dragged out till the end of summer.

 

[cly2tw]

Dennis Rodman changes the game outcome by his distrupting opponents' defense and frustrating their offense. Ben Wallace is the next to Rodman in this respect.

Pippen is the niddle that sews his team together, can always score one-on-one when needed, and is one of the alltime best defenders.

But Marion?

 

[scotsman13]

this year the suns are being outrebounded in almost every game. do you feel like giving up another 2 to 3 rebounds per game by moving down to the next best rebounding small forward? how about a block a game? almost a steal a game? how about a free throw out of 10 to miss? to give you an idea this is just some of the differances between marion and lewis.

right now nba.com ranks marion as the 10th most efficience player in the nba that ranking is Efficiency Formula: ((PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK) - ((FGA - FGM) + (FTA - FTM) + TO)) / G. this places him above pierce, kidd and even kobe. so give shawn a little credit.