TWolves vs. Suns 12/3

[jbeecham]

The Suns are always going to have trouble winning when refs don't call hand-checking (alien on Nash everytime), over the back, illegal screens, 3 seconds in the lane defensively and offensively and just hard fouls in general.

I thought I was tuning in to watch a basketball game tonight, but I was mistaken.

 

[elindholm]

I'm surprised no one has yet made these two points:

1. Shawn Marion is doing a great job with the task being assigned him. Yeah, I know that a lot of people have been saying that all along, but my respect for him went way up tonight. He takes threes at the wrong time and he isn't nearly the finisher on the break that he used to be. Those are the bad things. But gosh darn if he didn't try, I mean really try, to make his matchup against Garnett work. In the first quarter, Garnett destroyed him. But after that, Marion made some adjustments (as did the Suns), trying to prevent Garnett from catching the ball too deep. Garnett wasn't the one who beat the Suns down the stretch, and Marion should get a lot of credit for that.

Furthermore, he brings more of an attitude than I had realized before. He was pretty passive to start the season, but in this game, he looked intense and even angry some of the time. He didn't back down from the Garnett challenge on the offensive end, facing up on him and driving around him a couple of times. I guess he needed a break at some point, but the two or three minutes that he was out in the fourth quarter was when the game shifted to Minnesota's favor.

2. We've all been waiting for a "game that matters" to see how Joe Johnson would do. This was it, and he failed miserably. He did nothing well. He was sluggish, passive, and lost on both ends of the court, bricking nearly every shot he took and routinely losing either Szczerbiak or Sprewell. Several of his shots were off by two feet or more. I was pretty high on Johnson during the first two weeks of the season, but he's been declining since then, and tonight's game was an utter disaster. In my mind, this game proves that management was correct not to give him an extension yet. I think there's at least a 50-50 chance he won't be with the team next year, and chances are that will be just fine.

And I just want to agree with another point that has been made by others, which is that it is an absolute mystery why Hunter didn't get more time. If Hunter had played in the last six minutes of the game instead of Johnson, I think the Suns might have had a real chance.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'm surprised no one has yet made these two points:

1. Shawn Marion is doing a great job with the task being assigned him. Yeah, I know that a lot of people have been saying that all along, but my respect for him went way up tonight. He takes threes at the wrong time and he isn't nearly the finisher on the break that he used to be. Those are the bad things. But gosh darn if he didn't try, I mean really try, to make his matchup against Garnett work. In the first quarter, Garnett destroyed him. But after that, Marion made some adjustments (as did the Suns), trying to prevent Garnett from catching the ball too deep. Garnett wasn't the one who beat the Suns down the stretch, and Marion should get a lot of credit for that.

Furthermore, he brings more of an attitude than I had realized before. He was pretty passive to start the season, but in this game, he looked intense and even angry some of the time. He didn't back down from the Garnett challenge on the offensive end, facing up on him and driving around him a couple of times. I guess he needed a break at some point, but the two or three minutes that he was out in the fourth quarter was when the game shifted to Minnesota's favor.

2. We've all been waiting for a "game that matters" to see how Joe Johnson would do. This was it, and he failed miserably. He did nothing well. He was sluggish, passive, and lost on both ends of the court, bricking nearly every shot he took and routinely losing either Szczerbiak or Sprewell. Several of his shots were off by two feet or more. I was pretty high on Johnson during the first two weeks of the season, but he's been declining since then, and tonight's game was an utter disaster. In my mind, this game proves that management was correct not to give him an extension yet. I think there's at least a 50-50 chance he won't be with the team next year, and chances are that will be just fine.

And I just want to agree with another point that has been made by others, which is that it is an absolute mystery why Hunter didn't get more time. If Hunter had played in the last six minutes of the game instead of Johnson, I think the Suns might have had a real chance.

I'm with you 100% on everything above E. I've been a pretty vocal Shawn-detractor but the guy has been pretty unbelievable so far this season - awesome rebounding, good offensive numbers and solid D and a passion I haven't seen from him since he was a rook.

I asked the question what JJ's game was like against Sacto and Dallas in the chat room - as those were our two biggest game sup till this point and it didn't surprise me at all that he only scored 15 on 6-14 shooting against Sacto and only had 7 points against the Mavs and then was apparently horrid tonight. He is THE MISSING PIECE - him and the Bulls pick - those two things packaged together can get the big guy we so desperately need and then in the offseason we need to get one more dead on shooter and this team will be set (that is if Amare realizes that to be a COMPLETE player, that means REBOUNDING the freaking rock). Joe is just soft - plain and simple. He's got soooo much talent and just doens't EVER appear to really use it when we need it most.

Nothing to be alarmed about though tonight - the game pretty much just validates what my opinion of this team is - good enough to crush bad teams, good enough to beat most of the good teams, but definitely not in the top tier of the league at this point. Too small and not enough guys willing to REALLY step up when it matters. Nash ain't enough and Amare not getting rebounds will kill us against the bigger more physical teams.

 

[newfan101]

If Hunter had played in the last six minutes of the game instead of Johnson, I think the Suns might have had a real chance.

I wouldn't take it that far, considering JJ has been great most of the season, including more than a fair share of 4th quarters. I would prefer to say that if Hunter had played Jacobson's 16 minutes the Suns would have had a real chance. Casey has been horrible all year, regardless of whether or not the game mattered. If ever there was a game that we needed an athletic 7 footer to cover Garnett, this was it. Yet there was our slow, un-athletic, poor finishing, poor shooting 6'6" shooting guard getting the majority of the bench minutes ... again.

The Wolves will be the toughest match-up this year for the Suns, because they are taller and more physical, yet won't be run out of the building because they have the athletes, mainly Garnett, who can run with us. We looked genuinely exhausted at the end of the game, probably from the constant pounding we took on the boards. I like small ball more than many on this board, but this team will kill us every time with that tactic.

 

[Joe Mama]

Long... I can't sleep

I've got to go back and watch the game again if I have some time. First of all I would like to look at the officiating. George and Jbeecham have said that the referees made a big difference tonight. I really didn't see it. Certainly I didn't think it was anything like that Sacramento game where the officials repeatedly screwed the Suns.

My criticisms of Shawn Marion may have cooled a little bit before cheese's, but last year I definitely felt he was overpaid and somewhat overrated. There's no way I would trade him for Richard Jefferson or Tayshaun Prince (keep in mind this had as much to do with money as anything else). I did say repeatedly that his biggest problem was his lack of confidence in his jump shot. He still has his off nights, but his jump shot is much, much better this season. Last year, especially in the first half of the season, he was consistently bricking his midrange jumpers. He has been incredible this season.

I know they like to give the Dan Majerle hustle award to one of the less prominent players, but so far Shawn Marion has been head and shoulders above everybody except possibly Nash in hustle and determination. Eric, I'm curious as to why you said he isn't as good at finishing anymore.


SportsCenter this morning Tim Legler and Greg Anthony showed the differences between Kevin Garnett and Amare Stoudemire. I really hope Amare watches that peace. They basically pointed out all the differences that we have been discussing on this forum last night and this morning. They showed how much better KG is on the boards, defensively, with his footwork on offense, and with his passing. KG is much, much better.

I will say this in Amare's defense. Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan are clearly the elite power forwards in the NBA. I don't think many of us would argue that Amare Stoudemire is in their class yet because of the differences described on SportsCenter. However those guys have a couple advantages over Amare. First of all each of them has at least 4-5" inches of reach on him. KG's reach might be 6-7" more. These guys are power forwards in center's bodies. Furthermore they both get to play next two centers with legitimate size most of the time. Still, neither of those advantages really excuses to Amare's poor work on the boards last night. He needs to learn that defensive rebounding isn't just about standing under the basket and waiting for the ball. He has to put his body on somebody.

I think we can all agree that Amare does not look to pass as much as Kevin Garnett. But KG's teammates put themselves in position to receive good passes from him. JJ and Q have got to start putting themselves in position to receive the ball from Amare when he is in the low post. Instead they just stand around the three-point line at the top or on the other side of the floor where it is much more difficult for Amare to get them the ball.

Most of us in the chat room last night for that hunter must have been injured since he didn't play in the first half last night. This is clearly a game where he made much more sense than Jake Voskuhl and also should have taken some minutes from CJ, JJ, and Q. CJ was getting killed last night. I'm not as down on him as several people around here, but last night he was awful. I don't think hunter is the inserted every game, but had he been utilized more last night I feel the outcome probably would have been different. In this isn't something we are pointing out just because hunter played well when he finally gotten again. It's something that D'Antoni should have realized much earlier.

JJ did have a bad game last night. After the first half of the first quarter Q played pretty poorly as well although he did a good job on the boards (somebody other than just the Timberwolves had to take up Amare's slack in that department). I actually think Amare Stoudemire, Steve Nash, and Shawn Marion tried to do a little too much on offense, and D'Antoni should have run some more plays for JJ in the lane and off the screen and Q in the post. Those guys are much more effective in those areas.

Oh well. It's not as if the Suns are getting blown out by these top-tier teams. There are three losses have all been very close. I do believe that Minnesota matches up with the Suns better than any other team, so I'm not really disappointed in the game. I just hope they make the adjustments that will give them a better chance next time.

Joe Mama

 

[slinslin]

Garnett travelled at least 3 times last night. He wasn't having such a good game despite his dandy fantasy statistics.

This game was the Suns' to lose. They shot 2-18 from the arc compared to 7-18 for Minnesota. Jake Voskuhl hurt his own team. The bench contributed 1-6 shooting and 6 turnovers. Joe Johnson and Quentin Richardson combined for 7-27 shooting. The refs took away a 3-point play that would have kept the game within 1 instead the Wolves scored 5 straight or so.

We still only lost by 4 and are 13-3 on the season.

There is no way Amare is going to average Garnett like assist numbers on this team. Garnett doesn't have nearly the strong inside game that Amare has. You would never want Amare to spend as much time as Garnett on the perimeter handling the ball even less with Nash on the team.

To those who keep complaining about Amare's rebounding. Marion and Amare are the best rebounding duo in the league still. They average right about as much as duos of the past (Oakley/Ewing, Thorpe/Olajuwon, Robinson/Duncan...).
Playing regular lineups wouldn't hurt either because Shawn Marion doesn't block out ever and I'd imagine it would be pretty tough for any big guy to rebound on our team when you play against 2 other big guys on the boards and teams that play against you with a mission to crash the boards all night long.

 

[Joe Mama]

This game was the Suns' to lose. They shot 2-18 from the arc compared to 7-18 for Minnesota. Jake Voskuhl hurt his own team. The bench contributed 1-6 shooting and 6 turnovers. Joe Johnson and Quentin Richardson combined for 7-27 shooting. The refs took away a 3-point play that would have kept the game within 1 instead the Wolves scored 5 straight or so.

We still only lost by 4 and are 13-3 on the season.

Apparently this is how Mike D'Antoni is looking at the loss as well which is disappointing. I don't think anybody here is saying that this team has huge problems, and that a complete overhaul is needed to fix them. Both the coaches and players have things they need to change and work on however.

The Suns shot extremely poorly from the perimeter last night. The only had a handful of open shots though. Most of the night Minnesota players had a hand in the shooters face. Q especially took too many long shots early in the shot clock when he was being guarded well.

There is no way Amare is going to average Garnett like assist numbers on this team. Garnett doesn't have nearly the strong inside game that Amare has. You would never want Amare to spend as much time as Garnett on the perimeter handling the ball even less with Nash on the team.

KG gets a good portion of his assists from the low post. I agree that you don't really want Amare handling the ball too much from the top. Still, when he is consistently double and triple teamed in the low post he needs to find his teammates, and more importantly his teammates need to get to a place where he can find them. I don't think anybody is expecting KG's assist numbers from Amare, but a guy that draws as much attention as he does should be able to average 2-4 assists per game.

To those who keep complaining about Amare's rebounding. Marion and Amare are the best rebounding duo in the league still. They average right about as much as duos of the past (Oakley/Ewing, Thorpe/Olajuwon, Robinson/Duncan...).
Playing regular lineups wouldn't hurt either because Shawn Marion doesn't block out ever and I'd imagine it would be pretty tough for any big guy to rebound on our team when you play against 2 other big guys on the boards and teams that play against you with a mission to crash the boards all night long.

It may be true that they are the best rebounding duo in the league, but that's more because of what Shawn Marion is doing on the boards. He is averaging a ridiculous 12.4 rebounds per game by himself. Amare is grabbing 8.8 boards per game, but for the most part he's doing that on natural talent alone.

Let's get something straight. Shawn Marion might not block out as much as he should, but Amare rarely does it at all. Too often last night he was just standing there looking up in the air while Timberwolves players went right around him to grab rebounds. At other times the rebounds went over his head and to the Minnesota players because he did not have his body on a man.

If you took away three big rebounding games (New Orleans, Los Angeles, and Chicago) Amare averaged about 7.4 boards per game in the other 13 games. He can do better than that.

Joe Mama

 

[jbeecham]

Anyone else notice that when Garnett sets a pick at the top of the key, he sticks his knee way out so the defender gets knocked to the ground trying to go around the screen. It left Cassell and Garnett open so many times because he knocked Nash & Barbosa down or really slowed them up.

 

[George O'Brien]

Garnett is a LOT more experienced that Amare and he also gets more calls from the refs. In any case, Garnett has one thing Amare will never have - he is much much taller and longer. There is no way that Amare can block KG without jumping, but KG can block Amare unless Amare actually beats him to the basket. None the less, the Wolves double and triple teamed Amare yet no Suns were cutting to get in position to take a pass.

Elite teams tend to be older and used to playing together for a while. I love the Suns, but they aren't there yet.

 

[jibikao]

Garnett is a LOT more experienced that Amare and he also gets more calls from the refs. In any case, Garnett has one thing Amare will never have - he is much much taller and longer. There is no way that Amare can block KG without jumping, but KG can block Amare unless Amare actually beats him to the basket. None the less, the Wolves double and triple teamed Amare yet no Suns were cutting to get in position to take a pass.

Elite teams tend to be older and used to playing together for a while. I love the Suns, but they aren't there yet.

That's what I was thinking... Amare needs to play a bit smarter because he is not going to get all the calls he deserves and not going to beat 2-3 defenders all the time. Marion and other players should make cuts and take advantage of the double/triple team. Or Amare should pass out to shooters like Nash and JJ. If Amare can play smarter, it will make him a more complete player.

I am not saying Amare should pass all the time because Suns needs him to score inside especially when outside shooting are not going in. Amare is quite different from KG. KG doesn't have an explosive inside game like Amare has.

Well, this is just a 4-pt loss and it can easily happen to any other teams including Spurs. It doesn't mean that Suns SUCKS all of sudden.

Keep up the great work!!

Jimmy

 

[Chaz]

Maybe it's me, but it seems like every time the Suns stop somebody in the low block a foul is called while Amare gets pushed and shoved constantly and nothing. The Wolves are a good team, but if the refs let the Wolves abuse Amare the Suns haven't a prayer. (Amare had 7 foul shots but should have had at least a half dozen more).

In any case, the Suns have proven they can't shoot well enough to beat a solid matchup zone that contests shots. In this kind of game, the Suns needed defense and rebounds more than having another shooting threat on the floor, which is why I was so disappointed that Hunter did not play more.

Right or wrong you have to earn respect form the referees in order to get calls. Amare is a big guy but he is far from the biggest of guys. He is going to have some problems against guys like Garnett and Olowokandi. It is all a learning process for Amare and so far his advancement has been amazing so I am not worried about him. He just needed a little help inside.

As for the Zone the Suns get in trouble when they have no threat in the middle. When they high post Amare and cut off of the defensive reaction they do really well. They have even pulled off a few posessions of this tactic with Voskuhl, going inside and pitching out, but offensively he is foul prone and not a real scoring threat.
I think Lampe, Hunter, or a healthy, stronger Zarko could fill this role with a little time running it. I think Zarko could be very good in this high post position because of his passing ability.

The loss was disappointing but not discouraging.

 

[Errntknght]

Sir Chaz, "As for the Zone the Suns get in trouble when they have no threat in the middle. Whn they high post Amare and cut off of the defensive reaction they do really well. They have even pulled off a few posessions of this tactic with Voskuhl, going inside and pitching out, but offensively he is foul prone and not a real scoring threat.
I think Lampe, Hunter, or a healthy, stronger Zarko could fill this role with a little time running it. I think Zarko could be very good in this high post position because of his passing ability."

Zarko did show well going to middle against zones already but he's going to need a big rejuvenation before we see him on the floor. Practically speaking, Amare is the only guy who is going to be playing enough to lead our attack from the center against zones. (We could also use a good bit of that type of attack against man defenses when they're stacking against Amare.) He looked quite capable in the one game where he tried seriously. Of course, we also need some guys cutting on the baseline so he has targets - but more than anything else we need coach Mikey to notice that it works and make it part of the play book.

I've harped on our lack baseline action so much I almost hate to bring it up again but against the Wolves I was watching a number of times when Nash curled off a high screen, he had a good passing line right down the middle early and we had Marion or Q or JJ asleep in the corner with their defender watching Nash and Amare. Pitiful. If they got involved at all it was to brick another one from long range.


In general, I thought the refs called a reasonable game and that while the Suns didn't shoot that great, the Wolves didn't play or shoot their best either. Until crunch time. The players have said it was a good learning experience and while it was a good learning opportunity it remains to be seen if they actually learn from it. I'll be most happy if coach Mikey learns something from it - up until now he's been as dense as ironwood.

 

[Chaz]

Zarko did show well going to middle against zones already but he's going to need a big rejuvenation before we see him on the floor. Practically speaking, Amare is the only guy who is going to be playing enough to lead our attack from the center against zones. (We could also use a good bit of that type of attack against man defenses when they're stacking against Amare.) He looked quite capable in the one game where he tried seriously. Of course, we also need some guys cutting on the baseline so he has targets - but more than anything else we need coach Mikey to notice that it works and make it part of the play book.

I've harped on our lack baseline action so much I almost hate to bring it up again but against the Wolves I was watching a number of times when Nash curled off a high screen, he had a good passing line right down the middle early and we had Marion or Q or JJ asleep in the corner with their defender watching Nash and Amare. Pitiful. If they got involved at all it was to brick another one from long range.

I kind of cringed when I said Zarko, he seems to be a popular one for trade throw in. I would not be opposed to moving him for the right deal, but I think he has a lot of talent and could be a really interesting player for the Suns.

I wish the guys would just catch the ball a little closer to the basket. I noticed Q was better in the last game catching at 15-18 ft out off of movement instead of staying out at the three point line. Same thing with Marion on the baseline. Against the zone I think they should catch the ball a little closer than the three point line as a regular offense.

In general, I thought the refs called a reasonable game and that while the Suns didn't shoot that great, the Wolves didn't play or shoot their best either. Until crunch time. The players have said it was a good learning experience and while it was a good learning opportunity it remains to be seen if they actually learn from it. I'll be most happy if coach Mikey learns something from it - up until now he's been as dense as ironwood.

As long as they are winning he is doing his job I guess. The Wolves are a team much like the Suns except they are deeper and more experienced. All of which wont matter much in the league but they will be crucial in the playoffs. I still think the Suns could give the Wolves a good run in a series right now.

Should be an interesting year no matter how it ends.

 

[PhxGametime]

I've harped on our lack baseline action so much I almost hate to bring it up again but against the Wolves I was watching a number of times when Nash curled off a high screen, he had a good passing line right down the middle early and we had Marion or Q or JJ asleep in the corner with their defender watching Nash and Amare. Pitiful. If they got involved at all it was to brick another one from long range.

I've seen you say that a few times and being that I never played Basketball on a team (I don't know a lot of strategy) but IMO it sort of does seem, that Marion, JJ, and Richardson are a bit too set on spreading floor... then when they get ball at 3PT line, that's when they become creative. I really like some of the plays I saw Richardson during his Clippers days, right now his inside game is based on post-ups or penetration but he had a few curls (?) off screens inside for easy baskets (with Clippers) and Marion does seem like a fit on baseline. Spacing the floor is great but I'd like to see more movement, although it does seem better when Nash has ball...

 

[George O'Brien]

One of the reasons Richardson is not posting up opposing guards is that he usually playing forward. It's hard for someone his size to post up guys who are four or five inches taller.

Caro in today's Republic article noted that Richardson did not really take off against the Blazers when SAR was guarding him, but when Hunter came in and he was being guarded by shorter guys Q just exploded. Not only did he hit his long shots, he broke down his man and got into the paint as well.

 

[Joe Mama]

One of the reasons Richardson is not posting up opposing guards is that he usually playing forward. It's hard for someone his size to post up guys who are four or five inches taller.

Caro in today's Republic article noted that Richardson did not really take off against the Blazers when SAR was guarding him, but when Hunter came in and he was being guarded by shorter guys Q just exploded. Not only did he hit his long shots, he broke down his man and got into the paint as well.

That may be true, and I certainly understand why that would make it difficult for him to post up. However he has started the last two games by nailing beautiful turnaround jumpers off the backboard from 10-15 feet. He does it once or twice per game and we never see it again.

Joe Mama

 

[Errntknght]

Bball_31, "I really like some of the plays I saw Richardson during his Clippers days, right now his inside game is based on post-ups or penetration but he had a few curls (?) off screens inside for easy baskets (with Clippers)"

The Suns are employing no plays that utilize off-ball screens this year nor did they last year. (Though the coaches did draw up one a couple of games back for an endline inbounds play - Amare circled out above a wall screen and came down the pipe for an uncontested stuff.)

With Nash running the show and getting into the middle of the floor so well it's not such a big deal because he's so creative. As long as the other players move some and stay alert he'll get them pretty good shots most of the time and often very good shots. What I was complaining about was the other guys hanging around in the corners too much instead of moving. Moving along the baseline is particularly effective when Nash is coming off a high screen because the mover's defender can't watch both his man and the ball.

I've always liked the curl up from the baseline off a down screen - the Suns used to run it several times a game for Marion a few years ago. But it is somewhat complex as it requires coordinated action from three players - all five if you count the two that have to keep out of the way. It's better to wish for simpler things - like the guys setting random picks for each other or flitting along the baseline. After all the coaches are just coaches, not choreographers.