UA & Pac-12 Basketball Thread
- Thread starter carey
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I think you are overrating the talent, something that happens often when you get off to an incredible start (fueled by a lot of luck). Teams without point guards tend to struggle, we have no point guard. Many of us said it at the start of the season, we will live and die with Momo II. Lyons can carry us at times but when he's not carrying us he's sinking us. As for Nick, I have no idea what's going on with him - he just hasn't been the same player the past few weeks.
Steve
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I think you saw what's right and wrong with both programs last night.
Miller is a great recruiter but not even a really good coach right now. ESPN was being polite saying they don't seem to run any offense and the defense isn't as good as it was earlier. That's connected, you take bad shots you're not in position to get back on D. Tarc is getting better as is Jerrett but now ashley and Johnson are fading(again for Nick). And it all starts with Lyons and that was on Miller he made the decision early on he's my PG and has never wavered.
UA was better last night with Lyons not in the game, he was more interested in woofing at Drew than running the offense and got schooled, again.
For UCLA you saw the improvement of the players, the defense getting better(terrible help in the first half though) and you saw the new freedom on offense in transition. But then with the game almost over you saw why Howland won't be the coach next year, he again had to "take over" and milk the clock which led to several empty possessions, turnovers that gave UA good shots, and got to a point where UA was down 3 and got the last shot.
Luckily, Miller again showed his coaching accumen by putting the ball in Lyon's hands and letting him try to win it. If you're not going to take a 3 why run the clock down that far at all? Go immediately. I get that Lyons has won several games late this year but Lyons wasn't playing well last night, to just trust on faith he'd pull out a miracle was silly, especially given how hot Jerrett was and how both Parrom and Nick had made 3's. Really poor coaching decision, unless that was Lyons on his own.
Miller is a great recruiter but not even a really good coach right now. ESPN was being polite saying they don't seem to run any offense and the defense isn't as good as it was earlier. That's connected, you take bad shots you're not in position to get back on D. Tarc is getting better as is Jerrett but now ashley and Johnson are fading(again for Nick). And it all starts with Lyons and that was on Miller he made the decision early on he's my PG and has never wavered.
UA was better last night with Lyons not in the game, he was more interested in woofing at Drew than running the offense and got schooled, again.
For UCLA you saw the improvement of the players, the defense getting better(terrible help in the first half though) and you saw the new freedom on offense in transition. But then with the game almost over you saw why Howland won't be the coach next year, he again had to "take over" and milk the clock which led to several empty possessions, turnovers that gave UA good shots, and got to a point where UA was down 3 and got the last shot.
Luckily, Miller again showed his coaching accumen by putting the ball in Lyon's hands and letting him try to win it. If you're not going to take a 3 why run the clock down that far at all? Go immediately. I get that Lyons has won several games late this year but Lyons wasn't playing well last night, to just trust on faith he'd pull out a miracle was silly, especially given how hot Jerrett was and how both Parrom and Nick had made 3's. Really poor coaching decision, unless that was Lyons on his own.
MaoTosiFanClub
The problem
Yeah it's hard to say what Miller is or isn't offensively considering the only point guard he has had at Arizona smoked enough grass to make Snoop Dogg blush and got kicked off the team. If there's still these offensive lapses next year with McConnell and following with PJC then my guess is changes will be made but problem is too many recruiting whiffs at that position. I understood why Miller took Lyons, but it's clear it's not going to work.
MaoTosiFanClub
The problem
You can have all the talent in then world but if your chemistry sucks there's not much any coach can do. That being said it's all on Miller for bringing in two straight headcases to run the point for him. He has to realize that UofA isn't Xavier.
TJ
Frank Kaminsky is my Hero.
Talent is fine; depth is fine. Ashley, Jerrett and Tarc will be great Wildcats next season. The problem is we have two #2s in our backcourt who can't run an offense or pass the ball. If McConnel were eligible, we'd be a top 5 team.
For the time being, Miller has to adjust his offense accordingly and at least have the guards not shoot an inordinate amount of 3s to start games.
SO91
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Anybody got a stream for the game.
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Well that and two wins over UA. I agree UCLA got lucky after the WSU loss that Oregon folded(they need a strong tourney now to get an NCAA bid IMO).
Honestly the team that blew it was UA, they have the most talent.
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We did blow it but I'm not sure we have the most talent. If the NBA held a draft today from the Pac schools only I think UCLA players would fare far better than any other school. But it's not always about talent anyway, just look at a fairly loaded Washington squad and the teams they've managed to lose to.
Anyway, congrats to UCLA for winning the regular season. Not that I really believed it when I said it but I told a friend of mine early in the season this would happen. I was ranting about how bad UCLA was making the conference look after their loss to Cal Poly and that it just figures they would make it even worse by winning the regular season. I wish I had kept my mouth shut.
As for the coming tournament, if the game against ASU really means that Nick is back to playing basketball, I like our chances as well as anyone's. Of course, that's not saying much as there really are at least 6 teams with almost equal chances to win it and maybe only 3 teams with no chance at all.
Steve
TJ
Frank Kaminsky is my Hero.
Sorry if that came off as if I discounted your championship. Not the case. UCLA deserved it. Congrats!
UCLA could lose in the first round and get a bid. No worries there. With Muhammed, Anderson, Drew, and the Wear twins, you should have no issues getting at least to the Sweet 16. The Cats certainly blew it. Had we won last weekend, it would have been co-champs for both our programs.
I'm skeptical about NJ, still. He played very well against ASU and Carson the last time around. Could be that he thrives on playing the "rival" and familiar competition. He still has to prove that he didn't hit the proverbial wall like he did last season.
As for the PAC Tourney, it is anyone's guess seeing as no team wants to take charge in our conference. This conference season was like the game "Whac-a-Mole." One team pops up, gets knocked down, then another one comes up. Started with Oregon, then ASU, then USC, then Cal, then UCLA. The winner will win by default because someone has to win 3-4 games in a row this week.
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I think UCLA has at most 3 NBA players. Bazz will play in the NBA although again I don't think he's as good as advertised. I think Kyle will play in the NBA although what position is unclear. I think Adams makes it. Wears no, Drew no(iffy maybe daddy gets him), Powell no, Parker no he's an undersized 5.
So at best I see 3 NBA players.
UA I think all 3 freshmen bigs eventually play in the NBA. The difference is the borderline guys I think Nick (to my surprise) is much better than Powell, I think Hill better than the Wears, I think Parrom better than Powell or Wears.
the main thing with UA is that they have 3 very talented freshmen bigs but they didn't develop as fast as they could have and I attribute some of that to not getting the ball enough early in the year. Now later in the year when they should be flourishing, only Tarc is even starting.
UCLA's freshman were more college ready we all knew that, which is why it's surprising that UCLA improved much more over the course of the season than UA did.
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I don't see UCLA winning the tourney. THe bye helps but winning 3 in a row with 8 players where 2, Powell and Parker, aren't playing much or very well is going to be tough .Powell had 10 against WSU so I was hoping he was going to get his mojo back but then a donut against UW.
Oregon was the best team but they fell apart without Artis. Colorado would be really dangerous if they had Roberson.
Cal is the one team I don't want UCLA to play, Monty just knows how to cut up UCLA's "defense".
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I think Drew and probably even Travis get drafted. Drew might even have a decent career. Our young bigs haven't come around as quickly as I'd hoped but I thought they got plenty of minutes and touches early in the season. Obviously, Tarc got the most opportunity but the other two were given their chances. It's hard to take full advantage of big men though when you don't have a point guard.
As for Nick, he was our best player to start the season but he's been disappointing on both ends of the court for the past month. The ASU game showed him returning to form, hopefully, but I'll need to see a few more games like that before I'll be confident about him.
Steve
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Drew had a terrific senior year but I still don't see anybody listing him as draftable. I think he's a very lazy defender, when he wants to he defends hard(like he did on Lyons last shot in the 2nd game) but even ben pubicly stated a few times that he coasts on D. He's small too, don't think he shoots well enough to stick in the NBA but we'll see. Obviously had an excellent senior year.
I don't think Travis gets drafted but certainly possible, he shoots it well but again no NBA position, can't guard the 3, isn't strong enough to play the 4. He is also a total black hole. 29 assists in 2 years at UCLA.
I agree PG was the issue but I think if Miller did a better job early of telling Lyons I don't care if we're winning, you HAVE to get the ball to the bigs, it might have turned out differently. All 3 of those kids are going to have long NBA careers IMO.
I guess it's who you're a fan of UCLA has 1 5th year senior and 2 4th year juniors so that constitutes experience and talent. I came into this season thinking Lyons, Parrom and Hill would better than UCLA's 3 experienced guys, and that didn't even account for Mayes. I think UCLA got more from it's 3 than UA did from it's 4, and remember Travis has missed several games and David hasn't been the same since the hard fall against Georgetown he's reportedly been playing hurt all year.
I thought Altman did the best coaching job until late in the year when Oregon fell apart after Artis got hurt. Right now I'd vote Monty COY although you can make an argument still for Howland or Altman.
And I still think UCLA has a new coach next year.
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I know why(Cal Poly and WSU) but interesting that UCLA wins the conference outright, sweeps UA, and still rated behind UA in the national polls.
But I think it goes back to my point that the perception is on paper UA is the best team in the conference.
If Lyons woke up today and decided it's my last chance to show I'm a PG UA could surprise in the postseason, but my guess is he's more likely to shoot even more trying to go out with a bang.
But I think it goes back to my point that the perception is on paper UA is the best team in the conference.
If Lyons woke up today and decided it's my last chance to show I'm a PG UA could surprise in the postseason, but my guess is he's more likely to shoot even more trying to go out with a bang.
TJ
Frank Kaminsky is my Hero.
Regardless, during the post season, I will, at some point, be using profanity and Marks Lyons in the same sentence. He won't be a pass-first PG in the post season and will likely shoot us out of a game.
If you had told me we'd be guaranteed a Sweet 16 program at this point, I'd take it and not look back.
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It's not just who UCLA lost to, it's who UA beat. Wins against Florida, Miami and San Diego State give us a much better national profile. If the rankings were really an attempt to place teams in order of who you think is the better team, UCLA would probably be above Arizona by virtue of their sweep and regular season title. But for the most part, they just look at where you were in the last ranking and what you've done since and adjust accordingly and it's usually done without actually watching the game.
We were incredibly fortunate to win against Florida, San Diego State, Colorado and even Miami (missing key players) and if you put those games under the microscope, we start looking like the team we really are - top 25, barely. College basketball is still a guard driven game and for quite awhile there our trio of Mayes, Lyons and Johnson were a huge disappointment. Lyons is a blessing and a curse but Mayes has shown signs of life recently and Johnson is coming off a big game so those of us that choose to drink the kool-aid (that's me, btw) can go into this tourney and the one to follow with high hopes.
Steve
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Yeah on paper I think UA is the best team. they also had the most stable roster, Oregon lost Artis, Cal had no depth and a guy they thought would start, Kreklow, played 6 games all year. UCLA lost 2 more transfers, Travis missed 3 games and played half of 2 others. Colorado no Roberson down the stretch. Arizona didn't have any major injuries that I'm aware of, no midseason transfers etc and still technically finished 4th.
Miller is a great recruiter but I think they really underachieved in conference. You could also cite luck, UA outscored UCLA and allowed less PPG(conference games only) and yet lost one more game than UCLA did. But UCLA did that with a younger team(minutes played) than Miller had.
He's a tough coach to figure out he's a great recruiter but so far not sure he can coach the talent he gets. Next year is the big year for him he'll have a PG and he'll have talent and UCLA figures to be down several notches, he better win the conference next year.
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Yeah I'm not questioning the ranking I am questioning the system that makes it possible to rank UA ahead of UCLA with similar records given the head to head. It's not like UCLA lucked into those wins, first game 2 starters sick, Travis plays 11 minutes due to injury and UCLA wins at Arizona. 2nd game Travis still not healthy and UCLA wins again.
I picked UA to win both times, if they play in the conference tourney I'll pick UA to win again because on paper they should win. But the first 2 games were basically Drew destroying Lyons and Miller letting it happen by not taking the ball out of Lyons' hands.
I should add I'm having the same debate on the UA Scout board. Several people are claiming UA actually isn't more talented than UCLA and using as proof that UCLA got more first place votes from the media preseason than UA did. UA finished first because apparently a couple of voters didn't vote UCLA high thinking Shabazz might not be eligible.
makes some sense except none of the voters knew at that time that Josh Smith would be at Georgetown, not playing for UCLA. UA was the preseason favorite because most people thought they had the best team, because by then we'd all seen Josh Smith's weight.
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TJ
Frank Kaminsky is my Hero.
Mark "dammit stop shooting threes" Lyons. 2-10 today, and two consecutive misses (one an airball) prompted the CU run that brought the game within 2 in the 2nd half.
Mayes was nice off the bench, though.
BTW - I think Grant Jerrett will be one of the best players in the Nation next season. So impressed with his play.
Mayes was nice off the bench, though.
BTW - I think Grant Jerrett will be one of the best players in the Nation next season. So impressed with his play.
Chaz
observationist
should be a great matchup tomorrow.
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Really bizarre to watch as a non UA fan. Why does Miller keep putting Lyons in position to do that? he got mad at him, yanked him, and then 90 seconds later puts him back and lets him shoot Colorado back in the game. yeah he came up big at the end with that huge 3, but the game was only close because he took so many bad shots earlier.
If Miller would yank Lyons today at the first sign he's trying to take over against Drew, I bet UA would be better. They've been better with him out in both games against UCLA so far.
TJ
Frank Kaminsky is my Hero.
Didn't watch, but listened to the second half on the radio. UofA began to choke toward the end and the botched double dribble call along with the technical on Miller sealed the deal.
0-3 to UCLA on the season. They'll be ranked ahead of us in the Tourney, and deservedly so. I'm guessing a 5th seed.
BTW - Sucks to hear about Adams' broken foot, especially since it occurred at the end of the game.
0-3 to UCLA on the season. They'll be ranked ahead of us in the Tourney, and deservedly so. I'm guessing a 5th seed.
BTW - Sucks to hear about Adams' broken foot, especially since it occurred at the end of the game.
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Yeah, that's going to be hard for them. He pretty much carried them tonight.
I didn't like the T and I didn't like the discrepancy in free throws (something that has happened a lot to us since the first Colorado game and I don't think it's coincidental) but I never like to hear the coach talk about it in the press conference. At most, maybe a casual mention but I don't think he did us or himself any favors bringing it up so many times. He tried hard to give full credit to UCLA while taking shots at the refs but that never works well.
Steve
