Wade, Bosh, Haslem opt out.

[tobiazz]

I get why people are upset at what appears to be happening, but I see it a little differently. This option has been on the table for every team, every year, for a long time. This is one of the few times pro athletes have been willing to take less money to help the team out. People are acting like they're scum for doing this, but they're putting team ahead of individual. My question is, will the NBAPA allow this? It can't be good for them that players are willingly taking less money.

I know, it's funny. It used to be that players were derided for wanting max money and not leaving room to sign other players. They were called money chasers. Now being a "ring chaser" is derogatory. It's just a coping mechanism for the fans of teams that do not have such good teammates.

 

[BC867]

I get why people are upset at what appears to be happening, but I see it a little differently. This option has been on the table for every team, every year, for a long time. This is one of the few times pro athletes have been willing to take less money to help the team out. People are acting like they're scum for doing this, but they're putting team ahead of individual.

It sounds very noble. Overpaid millionaire athletes willing to take less money to help the team out.

Now let's call it what it is. Overpaid millionaire athletes manipulating rosters to corner the market on championships.

I am so glad the Heat lost and put a temporary skid on player collusion.

 

[SO91]

It sounds very noble. Overpaid millionaire athletes willing to take less money to help the team out.

Now let's call it what it is. Overpaid millionaire athletes manipulating rosters to corner the market on championships.

I am so glad the Heat lost and put a temporary skid on player collusion.

They're overpaid if they get a max deal, and overpaid if they take less than market value? Which is it?

 

[BC867]

They're overpaid if they get a max deal, and overpaid if they take less than market value? Which is it?

M I L L I O N S, either way. I am referring to school teachers and cops and firefighters, etc.

 

[KloD]

They're overpaid if they get a max deal, and overpaid if they take less than market value? Which is it?

They are overpaid period. It's disgusting what athletes and entertainers are paid. Speaks to the backwards priorities of society, but it is what it is.

 

[Covert Rain]

I have mixed feelings about this. I mean how many times on this board have we suggested one of our players take pay cuts to create room to sign another player? I have seen that countless times over the years. Now that Miami is doing it with their players people have a problem with it. Seems hypocritical.

I have less problem with them doing what many on here have suggested in the past with our own team and more of a problem with the way the NBA rules allow teams to load up on multiple superstars on a single team.

Two? OK. Three or Four? That is just bad for the league. I don't know what a solution is though? I don't think there is a solution unless you slot every single roster spot. I don't see that as viable.

Any ideas?

 

[SO91]

Not sure what the league can do, but I was wondering if the Union could step in and do something.

 

[SO91]

They are overpaid period. It's disgusting what athletes and entertainers are paid. Speaks to the backwards priorities of society, but it is what it is.

That's a topic for a different thread and discussion IMO.

 

[Mainstreet]

It sounds very noble. Overpaid millionaire athletes willing to take less money to help the team out.

Now let's call it what it is. Overpaid millionaire athletes manipulating rosters to corner the market on championships.

I am so glad the Heat lost and put a temporary skid on player collusion.

This is a good word for it.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I have mixed feelings about this. I mean how many times on this board have we suggested one of our players take pay cuts to create room to sign another player? I have seen that countless times over the years. Now that Miami is doing it with their players people have a problem with it. Seems hypocritical.

seriously...when Duncan takes a huge pay cut and Manu signs a generous deal below market value, those deals are called "home-town discounts" and those guys are lauded for loyalty and putting team first. Same with Brady in the NFL who took a pay cut to bolster his team. But the Heat guys do it try and better their team and they're scum, colluding and it shouldn't be allowed? That's ridiculous. They're doing what EVERY FAN of EVERY TEAM is pretty much ALWAYS complaining about...putting the team first ahead of their contracts.

not only that, but I'd love to find out how many people here were completely up in arms when we were one of the Haves during the Barkley years and in back to back years, JC went out and signed THE best FA on the market to one year, one million dollar deals (AC Green after we lost to Chicago and Danny Manning after we lost to Houston) with wink, wink nod contracts with the promise to get them their actual due salaries the next season once we held their Bird Rights (which we did) to completely circumvent the salary cap. I'm guessing NONE of you had a problem with that.

 

[Covert Rain]

This is a good word for it.

Is it? Collusion is a secret or illegal cooperation in order to cheat or deceive others. Are they following rules? If they take less money willingly to create cap space is that considered cheating or deceiving others?

I don't know about that. It does stomp on the spirit of fair competition in the NBA and many of our own ASFN posters have suggested similar solutions in the past with our own players. Yes, I hate what they are doing, hated when the Lakers tried to load up and hate when teams like the Yankees do it in baseball. Having said that I would love it if it was the Suns in this position.

seriously...when Duncan takes a huge pay cut and Manu signs a generous deal below market value, those deals are called "home-town discounts" and those guys are lauded for loyalty and putting team first. Same with Brady in the NFL who took a pay cut to bolster his team. But the Heat guys do it try and better their team and they're scum, colluding and it shouldn't be allowed? That's ridiculous. They're doing what EVERY FAN of EVERY TEAM is pretty much ALWAYS complaining about...putting the team first ahead of their contracts.

not only that, but I'd love to find out how many people here were completely up in arms when we were one of the Haves during the Barkley years and in back to back years, JC went out and signed THE best FA on the market to one year, one million dollar deals (AC Green after we lost to Chicago and Danny Manning after we lost to Houston) with wink, wink nod contracts with the promise to get them their actual due salaries the next season once we held their Bird Rights (which we did) to completely circumvent the salary cap. I'm guessing NONE of you had a problem with that.

+1. You said it better than I did.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It sounds very noble. Overpaid millionaire athletes willing to take less money to help the team out.

Now let's call it what it is. Overpaid millionaire athletes manipulating rosters to corner the market on championships.

isn't the point of playing at the highest level to try and win championships? the Heat OBVIOUSLY weren't good enough to do that anymore so the players are taking steps to try and make their team better. you guys are slamming these guys for realizing their team isn't good enough and realizing that their salaries right now make it so that their team will likely never be good enough. what are they supposed to do in that situation? just accept that they're not going to win again? that's ridiculous.

 

[Covert Rain]

isn't the point of playing at the highest level to try and win championships? the Heat OBVIOUSLY weren't good enough to do that anymore so the players are taking steps to try and make their team better. you guys are slamming these guys for realizing their team isn't good enough and realizing that their salaries right now make it so that their team will likely never be good enough. what are they supposed to do in that situation? just accept that they're not going to win again? that's ridiculous.

+1 again. It's not like if this was the Suns, we wouldn't be asking our own players to take the same actions to make room to sign a major free agent or keep other guys on the roster.

 

[Cheesebeef]

+1 again. It's not like if this was the Suns, we wouldn't be asking our own players to take the same actions to make room to sign a major free agent or keep other guys on the roster.

seriously. Look at it from another angle. The majority of fans here are Cardinals fans, right? And what do we ALL think Larry and Dockett (especially Larry) need to do next season with their huge contracts that will keep that team from contending? To a man, everyone thinks they should take a pay cut so their contracts don't choke the life out of the team and that would enable us to add more to a team that isn't good enough to win a title. Literally, EVERYONE who follows the Cardinals is saying this. But LeBron does EXACTLY what we want Larry to do and he somehow ends up the bad guy? that's hypocrisy at it's worst.

 

[BC867]

The resentment is not so much about what LeBron, Bosh and Wade will do about pay cuts to return to the Heat, but what LeBron and Bosh did do to join Wade. If they were all homegrown with Miami, it would be a different story.

What happens now is a residue of the collusion, not the beginning of it. Ballplayers arranging building a team instead of the General Manager.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The resentment is not so much about what LeBron, Bosh and Wade will do about pay cuts to return to the Heat, but what LeBron and Bosh did do to join Wade. If they were all homegrown with Miami, it would be a different story.

What happens now is a residue of the collusion, not the beginning of it. Ballplayers arranging building a team instead of the General Manager.

then, you're problem is with FA on a whole. Something every sports league fought for and deserved to get because otherwise every league was restricting trade. If the GM is the only person who can build a team and players have no choice, then you're looking at indentured servitude.

It's not collusion for a couple guys to say...boy, my team sucks and it's going to continue to suck so when I get a chance, i'm going to go play with guys I can win with. That's called wanting to win.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The resentment is not so much about what LeBron, Bosh and Wade will do about pay cuts to return to the Heat, but what LeBron and Bosh did do to join Wade. If they were all homegrown with Miami, it would be a different story.

What happens now is a residue of the collusion, not the beginning of it. Ballplayers arranging building a team instead of the General Manager.

and again, I ask, were you up in arms when colangelo colluded with AC Green and Danny Manning on one year deals to circumvent the salary cap back in the day? because that was LITERALLY collusion and the next CBA changed the rule because of it.

 

[BC867]

and again, I ask, were you up in arms when colangelo colluded with AC Green and Danny Manning on one year deals to circumvent the salary cap back in the day? because that was LITERALLY collusion and the next CBA changed the rule because of it.

No, I wasn't up in arms. I guess the difference is that, whereas either AC or Danny might be equivalent to Chris Bosh in not being one who could lead his team to a championship, none of them are in LeBron's league. The best player in the league manipulating a big-3 onto one team.

 

[Cheesebeef]

No, I wasn't up in arms.

then you have no right to slam these guys unless you're okay with being a hypocrite because that was LITERALLY collusion.

I guess the difference is that, whereas either AC or Danny might be equivalent to Chris Bosh in not being one who could lead his team to a championship, none of them are in LeBron's league. The best player in the league manipulating a big-3 onto one team.

how did he manipulate anything? did he force his way off Cleveland and say he was going to sit out and force a trade to Miami? Because that would have been manipulating. Did he tell Bosh to force his way off the Raptors and say you have to sit out and demand a trade to Miami and i'll do the same? Because THAT would have been manipulating.

No...they all became FAs, after YEARS of playing on and elevating pathetic franchises and decided they were sick of playing for losers and wanted to win. there's literally no manipulation there. AND none of that would have even been possible if Riley, the GM didn't make every move he needed to make to open up that cap space. HE did the work to give them the opportunity to play together. They just took it.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The resentment is not so much about what LeBron, Bosh and Wade will do about pay cuts to return to the Heat, but what LeBron and Bosh did do to join Wade. If they were all homegrown with Miami, it would be a different story.

What happens now is a residue of the collusion, not the beginning of it. Ballplayers arranging building a team instead of the General Manager.

I guess you hated the 2001 Diamonbacks team also that spent like drunken sailors to win their title. Because correct me if I'm wrong, but The Big Unit, Schilling, Williams, Bell and Reggie Sanders sure as hell weren't homegrown and were all gotten through shelling out HUGE amounts of money.

 

[KloD]

and again, I ask, were you up in arms when colangelo colluded with AC Green and Danny Manning on one year deals to circumvent the salary cap back in the day? because that was LITERALLY collusion and the next CBA changed the rule because of it.

You're correct, my logic has fallacy written all over it. It's not rational, but as I said and will say again. I don't believe I'd like it anymore if it were the Suns they came to play for. There's just something about it that rubs me wrong and it's not because it's not my team. To be honest, I didn't like when Jerry did that, but I wasn't vocal about it. I didn't like when we found out about the deal with Joe Smith. I want to see a competitive league. I want to believe that all teams have the ability to build a championship team. I don't even like free agency in the sense that big markets or better weather cities have an edge. Of course there needs to be free agency, but I think there has to be a better way to keep the league competitive. I don't want to see 2 or 3 teams winning it all every year because those are the teams that the best players will sign with. I've never had a problem with players getting as much as they can. I don't think I've ever complained about that and I have no problem with what I think Miami is doing right now, but I didn't and don't like how that team was put together in 2010. That they haven't won it all every year is great. I don't think they would have won 2 in a row if they had to go through the West. Maybe there should no longer be an East and West conference. Maybe it's just the best 16 teams and no more competition disparity between the two conferences.

With all that said (didn't need to be, but oh well) I still don't like it and I can't see that I ever will. As irrational as it is, it's just wrong to me.

 

[Covert Rain]

seriously. Look at it from another angle. The majority of fans here are Cardinals fans, right? And what do we ALL think Larry and Dockett (especially Larry) need to do next season with their huge contracts that will keep that team from contending? To a man, everyone thinks they should take a pay cut so their contracts don't choke the life out of the team and that would enable us to add more to a team that isn't good enough to win a title. Literally, EVERYONE who follows the Cardinals is saying this. But LeBron does EXACTLY what we want Larry to do and he somehow ends up the bad guy? that's hypocrisy at it's worst.

True. As a Cards fan as well...I want to team to continue to improve and reality is sometimes that requires hoping players take pay cuts so you can get that one extra player that can put your team over the top.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You're correct, my logic has fallacy written all over it. It's not rational, but as I said and will say again. I don't believe I'd like it anymore if it were the Suns they came to play for. There's just something about it that rubs me wrong and it's not because it's not my team. To be honest, I didn't like when Jerry did that, but I wasn't vocal about it.

Well, then you were the one. Because EVERYONE in the Valley was doing jumping jacks during both of those off-seasons.

I didn't like when we found out about the deal with Joe Smith. I want to see a competitive league. I want to believe that all teams have the ability to build a championship team. I don't even like free agency in the sense that big markets or better weather cities have an edge. Of course there needs to be free agency, but I think there has to be a better way to keep the league competitive.

One idea that I haven't seen floated here is doing what the NFL does and instituting a FRANCHISE PLAYER rule, where each team can "Franchise" a guy for a number of years after their first contract, but that means you have to pay a super premium for that player. And even there, I'd think that you could only do that for so long. But that's the only solution that makes any sense. If you can't build a winner around someone withn say 7 years, they deserve to go tail-lights on your ass.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You're correct, my logic has fallacy written all over it. It's not rational, but as I said and will say again. I don't believe I'd like it anymore if it were the Suns they came to play for. There's just something about it that rubs me wrong and it's not because it's not my team. To be honest, I didn't like when Jerry did that, but I wasn't vocal about it. I didn't like when we found out about the deal with Joe Smith. I want to see a competitive league.

another question then...so were you against the idea of the Suns trading Marion for KG and likely signing Grant Hill creating our own super-team of Nash/Amare/Garnett/Hill when it looked like those were real possibilities during the 2007 off-season, which would have created a Super-Team? Because I don't remember you or ANYONE saying the scenario above was going to be unfair from a competitive standpoint.

 

[Mainstreet]

Is it? Collusion is a secret or illegal cooperation in order to cheat or deceive others. Are they following rules? If they take less money willingly to create cap space is that considered cheating or deceiving others?

I don't know about that. It does stomp on the spirit of fair competition in the NBA and many of our own ASFN posters have suggested similar solutions in the past with our own players. Yes, I hate what they are doing, hated when the Lakers tried to load up and hate when teams like the Yankees do it in baseball. Having said that I would love it if it was the Suns in this position.

These are big name players who reap endorsements way beyond their pay. Then they appear to get together and wink wink, well let's add another big name player who can take a lower salary as well and make it up on endorsements so we can go back to winning Champioships.

IMO, they have an unfair advantage over most other NBA teams. Maybe the rules don't cover it now but that does not mean it is right. I call it circumventing the rules. The Commissioner used to have the power to to rule against such advantages for the good of the game. Those days are probably gone. The direction the NBA is heading now appears to be like an elite club and less like fair competition. Who knows maybe another professional basketball league will be formed again in the United States or worldwide. I could support such a league it if it is properly done.

Thanks for letting me vent. I know I have a losing argument.

If the Suns ever managed to get in this position to do this, I would say they literally bought a Championship with a band of mercenaries.