Warner, Holt, Lombardi - Total Access about Kolb

[Arizona's Finest]

But are we to use the Bears and Broncos as examples of teams who really know how to evaluate QB talent?

I don't think that's the route to take with Orton though. Too much guessing about too little information. It seems the Cardinals are targeting Kolb anyway so it's likely a non-issue but Orton is a darned solid QB who was playing at an elite level last year.

Lets flip that. The Bears and Broncos are two teams that have been desperate for good QB play (especially the Bears) and both were okay with tossing him out like nothing.

LOL Orton was playing at an elite level!?!? They won 2 games for christ sakes and was playing in blow out after blowout with McDaniles calling 80% passing plays (exaggeration)

I play it but ill be honest - I hate Fantasy Football. Its messed with everyones heads on what makes a good player or not.

 

[kerouac9]

First off you and I have different evaluations of Kolb. You seem to think he is Filibertos. I dont think thats necessairly the case.

To carry on your analogy, its more like this from my perspective. I hear about a restaurant, and admittedly no nothing about it. But the Head Chef has who works there has had a successful restaurant in the past, the menu seems to have food and drinks i like, and I read a few Zagat reviews I liked.

Sure the prices seem to be somewhat high, but I have the money and Damn I dont really have a restaurant nearby I like to take freinds, family, and coworkers. So Ill take a shot. Sure my tab maybe high and who knows - the food and service may suck. But I am taking enough of a educated guess that Im comfortable saying let the chips fall where they may.

See this is where you and I disagree. You think Kolb is Kyle Orton reincarated. I don't. I think he COULD be as good as a Aaron Rodgers (admittedly unlikely) but I could defintely see him being Matt Schaub and like I mentioned earlier, I think we can win and win big with that type of players. Like we have debated before - its not just the 0player individually - Its the player + the environemnt, and like Wiz said last week, I think we have a pretty QB friendly environment.

He also could be Charlie Whitehurst or AJ Feeley. But I am comfortable taking that risk at the pretty good chance he ends up like Schaub and in my wildest dreams like Rodgers.

I have never heard you laud DRC before, and now all of a sudden hes Darrelle Revis? DRC is like the 15th best corner in the league or so, and had a down year last year. We drafted the best CB prospect in the last 5 years this past year. I like DRC but his immaturity and unwillingenss to tackle are bothersome to me. And ESPECIALLY if the Cards get a FA CB, I make this trade in a second. Im okay with DRC going to Philly and being better. Again I dont think its that ludicrious that PP21 is better then DRC by the end of the year. You may say "hes only a rookie" but hes the most lauded DB since Champ Bailey. Ill take my chances with him if it helps me upgrade at QB.

Lastly you are wrong me thinking Orton and Kolb equal the same amount of wins. I am going to say it right now. If we get Kolb and stay relatively healthy, I say we win 10+ games. I think SF and SEA are in rebuilding mode and Im not that worried about the Rams. I like the rest of our team and if we get some OL and a OLB in FA, we can really do some damage.

And if Kolb is REALLY good, which is in play IMO, well then we are talking deep playoff run.

I think that Hasselback is Filibertos. I think that Kolb is Serranos.

Your example is flawed. You see a nice restaurant run by a celebrity chef, but what you're saying is that you want to buy the menu from the chef. You don't take the chef with you, you don't take the ingredients, you don't take the atmosphere, you don't take the location, you don't take anything else.

Do you think you can transplant the menu at Pizzeria Bianco and leave everything else behind and still have the place show up on Oprah?

Even if Kolb turns into Schaub, what has Schaub won? Nothing! He's put up Fantasy Football stats in an offense run by a certified genius and he's lit up the stat sheet like a pinball machine and won nothing. Last year they finished 3rd in their division.

I'd make a Schaub deal for Kolb--two seconds--and be happy with what I got. But you want to make a much, much bigger deal for Kolb, and expect the same level of results.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Zing! Schaub comparison is quite interesting...I think most believe that Schaub would be Kolb's ceiling. (Rodgers of course being an absolute pipe dream)

I mean your probably right, but what would you have said Rodgers "ceiling" was prior to Farve leaving?

IIRC NO ONE had him being all that good, and he went #21 and no one understood why they would let Farve walk.

But all the things you heard about Rodgers then.....you hear about Kolb now.

Im not saying its going to happen and I would bet on and take Schaub as an apt comparison (after all I made it ) but people get too lost in what they know opposed to how things actually were.

Just like we all KNEW Warner was going to blow up when he signed here off the scrap heap for 1 million. Riiiiiiiight................

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I think that Hasselback is Filibertos. I think that Kolb is Serranos.

Your example is flawed. You see a nice restaurant run by a celebrity chef, but what you're saying is that you want to buy the menu from the chef. You don't take the chef with you, you don't take the ingredients, you don't take the atmosphere, you don't take the location, you don't take anything else.

Do you think you can transplant the menu at Pizzeria Bianco and leave everything else behind and still have the place show up on Oprah?

Even if Kolb turns into Schaub, what has Schaub won? Nothing! He's put up Fantasy Football stats in an offense run by a certified genius and he's lit up the stat sheet like a pinball machine and won nothing. Last year they finished 3rd in their division.

I'd make a Schaub deal for Kolb--two seconds--and be happy with what I got. But you want to make a much, much bigger deal for Kolb, and expect the same level of results.

Oh K9. You are losing me here. I could have interchanged the chef example with numerous other things and my point would have remained the same.

I am saying Kolb is an UNKNOWN. And that there is enough evidence to suggest he could be good. So go to the restaurant and be mindful what you order, but realize to try the place and take the swing, there is going to be a tab.

Schaub hasn't won anything because of his dipstick coach and pourous defense. Not because he isn't good. Thats my opinion.

I like our coach and our secondary much better then Houstons and think if Shaub were in Az, we would be talking about playoff wins, not what a loser he is.

Im going to laugh when the price for Kolb is much less then whats been rumored. I see it being a 2nd and a 3rd. Everything else is just the Eagles treating everyone else as their puppet and Seattle trying to pay back Az for last year with Whitehurst.

But even if its a 1st OR DRC I would get the reasoning and be on board with the move.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I'm not sure I understand the other bolded section. I understand that asserting this fits your argument in favor of Kolb, but why do we NEED a long-term answer to the quarterback problem right now? Especially in a situation where the solutions available are so unappetizing.

Everyone not picked in the top 10 picks of the draft including Kevin Kolb is a stopgap. If he sucks he will be gone and we will draft someone and his bonus will eat up marginal cap space for a year or two. This is the NFL, any mistake short of a top pick or a disastrous head coach who you construct drafts and rosters around can be mopped up pretty quick. Not like the Cardinals are worried about having to deal with paying Eddy Curry to eat for the next seven years.

 

[MrYeahBut]

You guys made me hungry with all the Ruth's Chris, Flemmings...etc.

Gonna go grab a burger...can't afford steak

btw, I really hope Kolb works out, too

 

[kerouac9]

Everyone not picked in the top 10 picks of the draft including Kevin Kolb is a stopgap. If he sucks he will be gone and we will draft someone and his bonus will eat up marginal cap space for a year or two. This is the NFL, any mistake short of a top pick or a disastrous head coach who you construct drafts and rosters around can be mopped up pretty quick. Not like the Cardinals are worried about having to deal with paying Eddy Curry to eat for the next seven years.

Kolb wants a contract in excess of what Aaron Rodgers' extension was. Look up the deal for the last two headline traded QBs and Rodgers:

Matt Schaub (2007): Schaub signed a six-year, $48 million contract with the Texans, a move that officially consummates the trade. As part of the deal, Schaub -- who played golf with Houston coach Gary Kubiak on Monday in a get-acquainted session, the Houston Chronicle reported -- will receive $7 million in guarantees.

Matt Cassell (2009): Cassel and the Chiefs worked out a six-year deal that will pay him in excess of $10 million a season, according to a source. The contract will keep Cassel with the Chiefs until 2014.

The deal is for $63 million, with $28 million guaranteed, according to a source. He's going to make $40.5 million in the first three years of his contract.

Aaron Rodgers (in-season 2008) Packers sign Rodgers through '14; deal worth more than $66M, source says

The deal will pay Rodgers more than $11 million a year and will include $20 million in guarantees, a source told ESPN.com's John Clayton.

So you're looking at six years, $65 million, with $25 million guaranteed. Does that sound like the kind of contract that you just turn over after 8 months?

Or you can live with A.J. Feeley Part Deux for the next three years and hope our next head coach knows what a quarterback looks like.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I'd be more concerned about those numbers if Kolb had shown what Rodgers or even Cassel did before they got their money. He won't get that so it doesn't really matter what Kolb wants considering he's under contract this year and we have the franchise tag option in 2012 if necessary. You're being completely speculative, might as well say that we're going to trade for Knowshon Moreno and give him Steven Jackson money.

It must be fun to freak out over things that haven't happened.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

But since you point out Rodgers that makes a great example. Rodgers signed his extension in the middle of 2008, Green Bay didn't give him anything other than the starting job until that point. Once he proved himself over the course of that season the Pack paid the man. My guess is you see something similar here if he plays well over the course of the first several weeks and if not Kolb will fade into oblivion with AJ Feeley who is a horrible example by the way as Feeley never had an NFL caliber arm unlike Kolb.

 

[kerouac9]

But since you point out Rodgers that makes a great example. Rodgers signed his extension in the middle of 2008, Green Bay didn't give him anything other than the starting job until that point. Once he proved himself over the course of that season the Pack paid the man. My guess is you see something similar here if he plays well over the course of the first several weeks and if not Kolb will fade into oblivion with AJ Feeley who is a horrible example by the way as Feeley never had an NFL caliber arm unlike Kolb.

Would you like to make an avatar wager on that?

 

[TJ]

Would you like to make an avatar wager on that?

Signed Nov. 2nd, 2008. Midway through the season

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3675543

Rainbow Brite or Care Bears?

 

[kerouac9]

Signed Nov. 2nd, 2008. Midway through the season

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3675543

Rainbow Brite or Care Bears?

Nice try, but I meant it happening with Kolb.

 

[moklerman]

Lets flip that. The Bears and Broncos are two teams that have been desperate for good QB play (especially the Bears) and both were okay with tossing him out like nothing.

LOL Orton was playing at an elite level!?!? They won 2 games for christ sakes and was playing in blow out after blowout with McDaniles calling 80% passing plays (exaggeration)

I play it but ill be honest - I hate Fantasy Football. Its messed with everyones heads on what makes a good player or not.

Flip it? That was the flip. One of the primary arguments against Orton has been that Chicago and Denver "gave up" on him. Right? So why should we put such stock in two franchises that have had real trouble finding a regular starter much less a franchise guy.

And if you don't consider Orton leading the league in passing yards, completing 65% of his passes and having 20/6 TD/INT elite, then I think you have unrealistic ideas on the subject.

Also, I'm not limiting my opinion of Orton to what the fantasy football stat lines offer. I've watched him play and the specific game I offered as an example illustrated a QB who could make all the throws and playing really well. His passes were accurate and on time and he made some beauties.

As far as his numbers being inflated because of various factors that's what often happens with poor teams. That he could still put up such efficient numbers for such a lousy team should be looked at as a positive IMO. And just because the numbers were inflated does not mean they were false or misleading.

And to get back to the "Chicago gave up on him" topic, his time there was hardly conclusive. I don't think there's really much to go on when he was starting as a rookie for a run first team with a poor WR corps. Of course his numbers aren't going to be dazzling. Even still, the 2nd chance he got he put up 18/12 TD/INT and the Bears were 9-6.

Assuming the situation wasn't too far different if he went to the Cardinals, wouldn't 62% 3,800 yards 21TD 12INT 88.0 rating be a pretty darned good stat line from a guy who shouldn't cost very much?

Paying much more for who knows what kind of production from Kolb doesn't seem like a wise choice between the two of them.

 

[Duckjake]

As far as his numbers being inflated because of various factors that's what often happens with poor teams. That he could still put up such efficient numbers for such a lousy team should be looked at as a positive IMO. And just because the numbers were inflated does not mean they were false or misleading.

I've never understood this line of reasoning from people who say a teams passing numbers are inflated because they were behind and had to throw all the time. To me the only thing that would be inflated would be number of attempts. Completion %, TD-INT ratio, etc. in positive territory is a big plus for me because the Defense knows you're going to throw which should make it even more difficult to put up good numbers not easier.

 

[chickenhead]

The two teams "giving up" on Orton is not conclusive for me. I mean, first of all, the Bears regime we're talking about is the one that was desperate beyond all rationale for Rex Grossman to be their star QB. The they traded for a young gunslinger with more upside who grew up a Bears fan.

The Broncos may not have drafted Tebow, but they didn't draft Orton either. This is another team that feels pressure to have a HoF quarterback. They may think neither is the answer, but it would be considerably less popular in Denver if they moved Tebow instead of Orton right now. Plus, they might feel that they can use Tebow elsewhere even if they do bring someone else in.

Maybe the Cardinals pass on Orton too, for Kolb, believing the latter has the superstar potential. None of this actually makes Orton any worse.

 

[Indiana Hoosier]

Orton is not the guy, still Like Palmer.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I've never understood this line of reasoning from people who say a teams passing numbers are inflated because they were behind and had to throw all the time. To me the only thing that would be inflated would be number of attempts. Completion %, TD-INT ratio, etc. in positive territory is a big plus for me because the Defense knows you're going to throw which should make it even more difficult to put up good numbers not easier.

I guess I am not making this clear enough

JOSH McDANIELS

Thats why "all of a sudden" Orton is a statistical outlier. Its also the very reason we need to be very worried about the Rams, if not next season, then going forward.

Unless Orton is bringing Josh with him, I dont see him EVER Putting up those type of numbers again.

 

[moklerman]

I guess I am not making this clear enough

JOSH McDANIELS

Thats why "all of a sudden" Orton is a statistical outlier. Its also the very reason we need to be very worried about the Rams, if not next season, then going forward.

Unless Orton is bringing Josh with him, I dont see him EVER Putting up those type of numbers again.

I didn't miss your point but I don't entirely agree with it.

For example, Orton's numbers were more efficient in his first year in a new system. Why? Brandon Marshall. Sure, McDaniels' system was a much better one than what Orton was running with the Bears but the moment he lost that star receiver, his numbers dipped. Which is understandable.

But I still go back to watching Orton play. He was doing what Whis wants his QB to do. Good with screens, good with ball handling and misdirection passes, good with slants and good getting the ball downfield. Threw an absolutely perfect pass to Lloyd down the right sideline for a TD. One on one, hit him in perfect stride over the top.

And he was like that all game. Dude was putting the ball where it was supposed to be. That was with Eddie Royal and Brandon Lloyd. I'll take Fitz and just about anyone else as a better WR combo. Oh, that offense didn't utilize the TE much either. Sound familiar?

He's basically already been playing in the Cardinals type of offense for the last two years and at the very least, been efficient and safe with the ball. That alone would probably be a 2 game swing from last year.

Kolb certainly seems to have the physical tools but who knows how he's going to look outside the very QB friendly Eagles system. But Orton's proven quite a bit more and the situations he's been playing in the last couple of years, illustrate that he could handle life playing in Whis' offense.

Better WR's, not much of a running game, probably playing close games or from behind, not much from the TE...he's sort of established in that environment.

 

[DemsMyBoys]

Heck ya, man. Olmos and the Dog Whisperer even sent me messages.


Sanjay Gupta is following me too!!

Dang, Mulli, I am impressed.

So when do you do, like, you know, actual work?

 

[Mulli]

Dang, Mulli, I am impressed.

So when do you do, like, you know, actual work?

I multitask.

 

[Mitch]

I multitask.

Make that---you Mulli-task!

 

[Pariah]

Make that---you Mulli-task!

Now that was a good one.

:claphat:

 

[Mulli]

Make that---you Mulli-task!

Kudos