Was the WR core grossly overrated?

[mjb21aztd]

Ugh i know cards had to go Simmons but imagine lamb/metcalf heading into future with hop lot better than Kirk Isabella....

 

[cardncubfan]

Fitz is not the problem.

 

[scandalous_b]

Fitz was open more often then not ... gosh, if youf midget QB can't see over the middle and see where your open WR are than it doesn't matter if it's fitz, Kirk, Isabella, Arnold, Drake (all were multiple times open) you don't get the completition and your WR/TE/RB corps looks way worse than it in reality is. Hopkins looked week the last two week as well, not over 20 mio a year worth...

And D will take the rushing lanes and short passes away and we will struggle as long as Kyler can't find the crossing, slant, go routes in the middle or find the open guy down field...

Fitz has a PFF grade that ranks 111th out of 119 qualifying WRs.

If he was getting open anywhere near as often as you claim, he would not be graded so poorly.

 

[scandalous_b]

You see plenty of them run, you don't see many of them thrown. Watch this 2nd video with the dumb throw to Kirk. He has two players open in the flat both running crossing routes yet delays and goes for the 1% short to Kirk in coverage.

There's a combination of problems. Kliff doesn't call them much (there's too many quick passes outside the numbers) and when they are run Kyler can't/won't find them.

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The 2nd one yeah he should have gone underneath but he also got hit in the face as he threw it. I think he was just trying to get it out where if the WR doesn't get it nobody does. It wound up that the Wr broke up a possible INT so he should have taken the shorter throw. I think he TRIED to be safe there but because of the hit he was throwing off the back foot and couldn't get enough on it and nearly compounded the mistake with a turnover.

He has to check that down AND be safe with it

In all fairness, the pass thrown downfield to Kirk was on 3rd & 8.

The receivers running the crossing routes are both at least 5 yards short of the sticks with defenders in the area waiting for them.

I'm not gonna whine about him taking a shot downfield into single coverage on 3rd & long while under pressure. It's not nearly as dumb of a decision as you guys are making it out to be.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Fitz has a PFF grade that ranks 111th out of 119 qualifying WRs.

If he was getting open anywhere near as often as you claim, he would not be graded so poorly.

LOL PFF grade.

Murray got an 80 last week. PFF is trash.

 

[scandalous_b]

LOL PFF grade.

I mean it's easy to trash PFF, but I don't think people understand how difficult it is to actually quantify performance & value in football. That doesn't mean you treat everything they say as the holy gospel - but to dismiss it completely is beyond embarrassing.

With that being said - a player's grade can be just as heavily reliant on coaching & scheme as the actual talent level of that player.

In this case, Fitz not being able to get open doesn't mean that he does not have the ability to get open - but rather that the tape says he isn't getting open. So I would bet that a large part of Larry's struggles on paper have more to do with the emphasis of getting others open rather than himself.

Murray got an 80 last week. PFF is trash.

I mean I don't know what to tell you about this take.

I don't think Kyler played an outstanding game, but I think he played pretty damn well given the limitations of the gameplan. Yeah he didn't throw the ball all over the place - but that had more to do with the gameplan than Kyler's performance. Ultimately he went 3/3 scoring TDs in the redzone, and didn't really put the ball in harm's way.

If Andy Isabella doesn't trip over his own feet on that deep ball down the sideline, the narrative on Kyler's game is completely different. That ball was right where it had to be, and Isabella completely butchered it.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Fitz is not the problem.

it’s not about him being a problem. It’s about him not being enough of a solution for the salary he’s bringing in. Can’t get better if we can’t afford better players because we’re overpaying our own.

 

[BritCard]

In all fairness, the pass thrown downfield to Kirk was on 3rd & 8.

The receivers running the crossing routes are both at least 5 yards short of the sticks with defenders in the area waiting for them.

I'm not gonna whine about him taking a shot downfield into single coverage on 3rd & long while under pressure. It's not nearly as dumb of a decision as you guys are making it out to be.

Not sure what you are seeing there. Drake is wide open and in motion against a single DB thats 5 yards off him and heading the wrong direction. Any RB in the league is getting a 1st down there easily.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

it’s not about him being a problem. It’s about him not being enough of a solution for the salary he’s bringing in. Can’t get better if we can’t afford better players because we’re overpaying our own.

At this stage of his career he should be here on a team friendly contract, not $11 mil

 

[BritCard]

At this stage of his career he should be here on a team friendly contract, not $11 mil

Sure, I agree but if your boss says he's willing to pay you $100k a year do you say "No thats ok boss I'll take 50k because you've been good to me". It's not Fitz's fault Bidwill is a mug. It's not like Fitz is going to move to another team.

On saying all that, Fitz can't catch balls that aren't thrown to him. He is getting open but he's not getting the targets.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

On saying all that, Fitz can't catch balls that aren't thrown to him. He is getting open but he's not getting the targets.

This is true.

If Larry has some separation he still has good hands.

But the argument is what's he worth in salary?

 

[BritCard]

This is true.

If Larry has some separation he still has good hands.

But the argument is what's he worth in salary?

You got to think where the cap in now. It's not 2005.

Alshon Jeffery in on $13m. Tyler Boyd nearly $11m. Sterling Sheppard $10.2m. Jamison Crowder $9.5m. Randall Cobbs $9m.

It's not like he's a million miles away from where he should be for a guy that his still getting plenty of separation. But as I said, he can't catch balls not thrown to him.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I mean it's easy to trash PFF, but I don't think people understand how difficult it is to actually quantify performance & value in football. That doesn't mean you treat everything they say as the holy gospel - but to dismiss it completely is beyond embarrassing.

For a lot of us, to even quote PFF is completely embarrassing. I used to use PFF as well. Its a very lazy approach to talk about how players ACTUALLY played.

With that being said - a player's grade can be just as heavily reliant on coaching & scheme as the actual talent level of that player.

Right. Does PFF even know what the players assignment was on any given play? Who knows. It isn't a transparent system...at all.

In this case, Fitz not being able to get open doesn't mean that he does not have the ability to get open - but rather that the tape says he isn't getting open. So I would bet that a large part of Larry's struggles on paper have more to do with the emphasis of getting others open rather than himself.

And yet when people have ACTUALLY looked at the all 22, Larry is open frequently the past two games.

I mean I don't know what to tell you about this take.

I don't think Kyler played an outstanding game, but I think he played pretty damn well given the limitations of the gameplan. Yeah he didn't throw the ball all over the place - but that had more to do with the gameplan than Kyler's performance. Ultimately he went 3/3 scoring TDs in the redzone, and didn't really put the ball in harm's way.

If Andy Isabella doesn't trip over his own feet on that deep ball down the sideline, the narrative on Kyler's game is completely different. That ball was right where it had to be, and Isabella completely butchered it.

Murray had a historically AWFUL game. He had one of the single lowest yards per attempt with over 30 passes in NFL history. Like top 5 bad. That is objective fact. And when you pair that with play-by-play breakdowns, there are at least 6 or 7 instances where Murry threw a pass that resulted in a 5 yard or less gain, when there was a receiver open for 10+ yards. Sometimes 15+ yards. That mean Murray had MANY opportunities to get more yards. He stunk. I'm Murray's biggest fan on this board probably, but he was very much in position to succeed and for whatever reason that I won't speculate, he didn't come through.

An 80 grade? That's crap. They gave him like a 60 grade against the 49ers. Anyone who actually watched that game would disagree with this disparity in grading.

 

[cardncubfan]

it’s not about him being a problem. It’s about him not being enough of a solution for the salary he’s bringing in. Can’t get better if we can’t afford better players because we’re overpaying our own.

Have you picked out my avatar yet?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Have you picked out my avatar yet?

Did I win a bet?!

 

[cardncubfan]

Did I win a bet?!

Not yet but I may as well concede. The Pat P bet or was that with someone else?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Not yet but I may as well concede. The Pat P bet or was that with someone else?

lol... no, that was me. Lemme think on it.

 

[Rohinaz]

We need to draft Terrence Marshall from LSU, he will prob will the blitnekoff this year. 7 tds through 3 games 6"3 220 and is still a burner. We need a large target like fitz.

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[juza76]

I agree with EVERTHING you said. However, we need to be taking shots downfield on early downs and not waiting until 3rd and 12.
As far as Fitz how can he do anything when he gets 2 balls his way and 1 of them is behind the line of scrimmage which is totally ridiculous?
If we have Hopkins streaking down one side, Issabella down the other side and someone crossing over the middle Kyler has to find the open guy.

in another post I mention how we should have Kyler under center for the reason you mention. Defenses have virtually stopped rushing him and forcing him to find a wr in flooded zones.

I saw more screen passes in 3and long then downfield passes

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ugh i know cards had to go Simmons but imagine lamb/metcalf heading into future with hop lot better than Kirk Isabella....

If they hit on Metcalf last year they wouldn’t have drafted lamb and I doubt they would’ve traded for Nuk.

 

[BritCard]

We need to draft Terrence Marshall from LSU, he will prob will the blitnekoff this year. 7 tds through 3 games 6"3 220 and is still a burner. We need a large target like fitz.

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No more drafting WRs yet. Not high picks anyway. We have far too many other holes on this team.

Other teams are showing you don't need 3 star wide receivers if you have good trenches and DBs and if you don't have those things the WRs are pointless anyway.

 

[Rohinaz]

No more drafting WRs yet. Not high picks anyway. We have far too many other holes on this team.

Other teams are showing you don't need 3 star wide receivers if you have good trenches and DBs and if you don't have those things the WRs are pointless anyway.

I dunno man, since Hopkins came here, I think it made it more obvious that we need more talent at WR. Plus, Marshall would be a replacement for fitz and a high quality wr on a reasonable salary for the next 5 years. Fitz is the only big WR target we have right now.

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[BritCard]

I dunno man, since Hopkins came here, I think it made it more obvious that we need more talent at WR. Plus, Marshall would be a replacement for fitz and a high quality wr on a reasonable salary for the next 5 years. Fitz is the only big WR target we have right now.

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You give the QB time to throw and they can hit most WRs. You gave them a run game to lean on and they aren't always under pressure to throw. Give them a defense so they don't have to play from behind.

There are plenty of rosters with worse wide receivers. Not many with worse trenches and DBs.

 

[DVontel]

I understand the reason for this year, but I’d be kind of furious if we don’t draft a WR at least in the 3rd round next draft.

 

[Chopper0080]

I understand the reason for this year, but I’d be kind of furious if we don’t draft a WR at least in the 3rd round next draft.

Disagree a bit. Between OL, CB, and OLB...we have a ton of more pressing needs. Hell, if Kyler can't make this group work, we may need to draft a RB to take the ball out of his hand more. Kyler needs to start showing he can elevate talent. FA could obviously change our needs, but at this time, I just don't see it as the priority.