We Won Despite CKW...

[Russ Smith]

Someone asked this pages ago and got no clear reply, are you really suggesting nobody ever coached Ryan Williams on how to avoid fumbling?

It happens, it was a damn near tragedy my girlfriend actually came running into the room where I was watching because she was afraid I'd gotten hurt or something the way I reacted. But to say he fumbled because he wasn't properly prepared by his coach is a massive leap in logic.

I wouldn't have pitched the ball wide for the very reasons you said, dangerous, increases the odds he goes out of bounds. But the pitch was fine and he didn't run out of bounds in fact he cut in which suggests he probably was told don't go out of bounds, he just didn't get wide enough before cutting in.

LSH made a mistake too IMHO but Donald already explained his excuse, the high bounce convinced him he ought to just take the knee. I disagree but I have no idea how close the guys were to him when he made that decision, he probably figured they'll get me in less than 6 seconds anyways so better to get the ball at the 20.

There are plenty of things that happen in the course of a game that aren't the result of poor coaching.

 

[Mitch]

Someone asked this pages ago and got no reply, are you really suggesting nobody ever coached Ryan Williams on how to avoid fumbling?

It happens, it was a damn near tragedy my girlfriend actually came running into the room where I was watching because she was afraid I'd gotten hurt or something the way I reacted. But to say he fumbled because he wasn't properly prepared by his coach is a massive leap in logic.

I wouldn't have pitched the ball wide for the very reasons you said, dangerous, increases the odds he goes out of bounds. But the pitch was fine and he didn't run out of bounds in fact he cut in which suggests he probably was told don't go out of bounds, he just didn't get wide enough before cutting in.

LSH made a mistake too IMHO but Donald already explained his excuse, the high bounce convinced him he ought to just take the knee. I disagree but I have no idea how close the guys were to him when he made that decision, he probably figured they'll get me in less than 6 seconds anyways so better to get the ball at the 20.

There are plenty of things that happen in the course of a game that aren't the result of poor coaching.

Russ---there is just no way you want to risk contact anywhere near the ball in any shape or fashion in that situation. That's the problem with the play. Even if the play was 3rd and 2---you can't risk the fumble, not when you can run the clock down to 30 seconds.

 

[Russ Smith]

Russ---there is just no way you want to risk contact anywhere near the ball in any shape or fashion in that situation. That's the problem with the play. Even if the play was 3rd and 2---you can't risk the fumble, not when you can run the clock down to 30 seconds.

That's not what I asked. I'm asking do you REALLY believe that the guy who fumbled that has never been told not to fumble and never shown how to make it less likely? Look at the poor kid he was damn near in tears on the sideline do you really think he believes it was his coaches fault and not his?

You're arguing he fumbled because he was never coached how not to fumble or because we didn't practice that play.

How do you possible know that to be true?

I'm fine with you disagreeing on kneel don't kneel. If we did we're probably punting with 28 seconds left, it's a fair debate if that's worth not taking the fumble risk on 3rd down. What I disagree with is your repeated assertions that the fumble was due to bad coaching. I can semi see your point about the decision being bad, although I don't agree, it's the coaching part of it I'm disagreeing with.

You're blaiming Whiz for a mistake Williams made, with zero evidence the mistake was due to a lack of coaching.

 

[Mitch]

That's not what I asked. I'm asking do you REALLY believe that the guy who fumbled that has never been told not to fumble and never shown how to make it less likely? Look at the poor kid he was damn near in tears on the sideline do you really think he believes it was his coaches fault and not his?

You're arguing he fumbled because he was never coached how not to fumble or because we didn't practice that play.

How do you possible know that to be true?

I'm fine with you disagreeing on kneel don't kneel. If we did we're probably punting with 28 seconds left, it's a fair debate if that's worth not taking the fumble risk on 3rd down. What I disagree with is your repeated assertions that the fumble was due to bad coaching. I can semi see your point about the decision being bad, although I don't agree, it's the coaching part of it I'm disagreeing with.

You're blaiming Whiz for a mistake Williams made, with zero evidence the mistake was due to a lack of coaching.

Russ---let's say you and I are coaching this late-game situation in practice.

We put 1:10 on the clock and set the chains at 3rd and 13---we tell the offense that the opponent has no timeouts left.

Even if we are crazy enough to call a toss LEFT (which from a ballhandling aspect is RB unfriendly to begin with because RBs are most comfortable with the ball in their right hand---which many are overlooking)---what do we tell Williams?

First we tell him to catch the toss.

Then we tell him to stretch the play out as far as he can get withoiut running out of bounds.

Then we tell him at the first show of color (football term for at the first sign of penetration), to both put two hands on the football and make sure your knee hits the turf.

You have now accomplished what you wanted.

The fact that Williams---who is essentially a rookie who has never been in this situation in the NFL (and he FUMBLED the week before)---did exactly what coaches would tell him NOT to do indicates he wasn't properly prepared to run the play....and that he was the wrong choice.

THAT is on the coaching.

If you and I saw him cutting back into the teeth of the defense we would have thrown nutties. Honestly.

You can't leave these plays to chance---you have to have run them in practice and have made the instructions clear.

This is exactly what practice is for.

 

[Russ Smith]

Russ---let's say you and I are coaching this late-game situation in practice.

We put 1:10 on the clock and set the chains at 3rd and 13---we tell the offense that the opponent has no timeouts left.

Even if we are crazy enough to call a toss LEFT (which from a ballhandling aspect is RB unfriendly to begin with because RBs are most comfortable with the ball in their right hand---which many are overlooking)---what do we tell Williams?

First we tell him to catch the toss.

Then we tell him to stretch the play out as far as he can get withoiut running out of bounds.

Then we tell him at the first show of color (football term for at the first sign of penetration), to both put two hands on the football and make sure your knee hits the turf.

You have now accomplished what you wanted.

The fact that Williams---who is essentially a rookie who has never been in this situation in the NFL (and he FUMBLED the week before)---did exactly what coaches would tell him NOT to do indicates he wasn't properly prepared to run the play....and that he was the wrong choice.

THAT is on the coaching.

If you and I saw him cutting back into the teeth of the defense we would have thrown nutties. Honestly.

You can't leave these plays to chance---you have to have run them in practice and have made the instructions clear.

This is exactly what practice is for.

how do you know it's because of coaching?

Many years ago I watched a college basketball game that had LSU and Dale Brown the "coach". He had some big kid on his team named Tito Horford(Al's dad) and late in the game on the sideline they drew up a play and you could hear him pointing at Tito telling him whatever you do, don't shoot, because he knew the kid couldn't shoot and if he tried to they'd foul him. He then told the rest of the team don't pass the ball to Horford. Ball ends up with Tito of course, and he immediately goes up to shoot of course, gets fouled, missed the free throws LSU loses. Billy Packer went over and over short of taking him out of the game, which means he's not there for a possible putback of a miss, what can you do as the coach?

Kids make mistakes, I have no doubt the Cards told Williams hang onto the football don't fumble ball security etc. He still fumbled.

You're starting your point with a huge assumption, that nobody ever practices that play or told Williams what to do, and then using that assumption as your entire defense.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

how do you know it's because of coaching?

Because if you blame the player for the bad play, it destroys his theory that the wrong play was called and it destroys his paradigm that he knows more than the coach.

 

[Darkside]

how do you know it's because of coaching?

Many years ago I watched a college basketball game that had LSU and Dale Brown the "coach". He had some big kid on his team named Tito Horford(Al's dad) and late in the game on the sideline they drew up a play and you could hear him pointing at Tito telling him whatever you do, don't shoot, because he knew the kid couldn't shoot and if he tried to they'd foul him. He then told the rest of the team don't pass the ball to Horford. Ball ends up with Tito of course, and he immediately goes up to shoot of course, gets fouled, missed the free throws LSU loses. Billy Packer went over and over short of taking him out of the game, which means he's not there for a possible putback of a miss, what can you do as the coach?

Kids make mistakes, I have no doubt the Cards told Williams hang onto the football don't fumble ball security etc. He still fumbled.

You're starting your point with a huge assumption, that nobody ever practices that play or told Williams what to do, and then using that assumption as your entire defense.

Reminds me of the special on Belichik they did on NFL channel, and all week you can hear Belichik telling his coaches we have to stop this dude in the slot (I forget who it even was). Every day he's telling them that. He's like this is all they can do well, we have to stop it. Over and over. Sunday comes and what happens? Guy in the slot slaughters them and beats their ass. You can even hear Belichik on the sideline in his headset, just distraught, going "we worked on this all week, it's all we worked on," LOL. Coaching can only take a team so far. Comes down to players.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Russ---there is just no way you want to risk contact anywhere near the ball in any shape or fashion in that situation. That's the problem with the play. Even if the play was 3rd and 2---you can't risk the fumble, not when you can run the clock down to 30 seconds.

What?! This is insane. I truly believe the only reason people are making this argument is because they have battered fan syndrome. Look... That kind of play happens to us routinely, but it just doesn't to the Rey of the league. That being said, we can't govern ourselves by looking backward. We have to move forward believing we won't make that terrible play because that's how good teams operate. Out of belief. NOT FEAR.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Plus, I think it was Dockett who said Wells was telling Williams the main thing to do was hold onto the ball and they were going over how to carry it. So, I'm sure Williams knew ball security was the #1 issue there and that's why he was so distraught.

The one thing I coulld complain about with Whiz in that situation was playing Williams over Wells. In his presser, Whiz was asked why Williams was in instead of Wells and Whiz simply answered, "because it was his turn". I don't like that answer and hope there was more to it than that. With the game on the line, you don't put a guy in who is more apt to fumble, and much less experienced, just because it is his turn.

 

[Russ Smith]

Reminds me of the special on Belichik they did on NFL channel, and all week you can hear Belichik telling his coaches we have to stop this dude in the slot (I forget who it even was). Every day he's telling them that. He's like this is all they can do well, we have to stop it. Over and over. Sunday comes and what happens? Guy in the slot slaughters them and beats their ass. You can even hear Belichik on the sideline in his headset, just distraught, going "we worked on this all week, it's all we worked on," LOL. Coaching can only take a team so far. Comes down to players.

I did something like that twice playing basketball in HS. Once as a junior we had this play on jumpballs everyone rotates the same way the guy tipping it directs it as needed. All you do is wait to hear which way to rotate. So coach says left, everyone else goes left, I stand still and the ball is tapped to my left, where I'm supposed to be and am not. On the bench.

Scrimmage before my junior year we're playnig agains alums. One of them is a great shooter and red hot. Russ go guard Jay whatever you do don't leave him. So I'm guarding Jay, ball goes into the high post I drop down to try and steal it he passes to Jay who nails a jumper as I'm running at him. On the bench.

What can you say both times i knew exactly what to do, but I brain farted.

It's instinct you can tell a player something over and over, doesn't mean in the heat of battle they won't do the wrong thing.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

1. the snap

Listing a "snap" as a risk in a football game is like risking "drowning" as a risk in a swim match.

2. the toss (an INSIDE underhanded pitch, that could easily be poked away even by the guard getting pushed backward)

Was executed perfectly.

3. the catch of the pitch

Was executed perfectly.

4. a subsequent fumble

Since your claim is that it is on THE COACH (LOOK WE CAN ALL DO BIG WORDS...WEEEEEE)

....for how well a play goes then.....

You are claiming that the Cardinals practiced and prepared the play of pitching and catching. They practiced this a bunch since it went off so perfectly.

THUS Ryan Williams WAS actually PREPARED for the play and just made a mistake on his own.

How else could all that other crazy stuff happen without them being prepared? Mitch, I whole heartedly agree with you, Whisenhunt had this team well prepared but Ryan Williams just screwed it up.

 

[Russ Smith]

Plus, I think it was Dockett who said Wells was telling Williams the main thing to do was hold onto the ball and they were going over how to carry it. So, I'm sure Williams knew ball security was the #1 issue there and that's why he was so distraught.

The one thing I coulld complain about with Whiz in that situation was playing Williams over Wells. In his presser, Whiz was asked why Williams was in instead of Wells and Whiz simply answered, "because it was his turn". I don't like that answer and hope there was more to it than that. With the game on the line, you don't put a guy in who is more apt to fumble, and much less experienced, just because it is his turn.

Agreed I don't like the his turn thing either. But that's a different point not the one I was disagreeing with.

 

[D-Dogg]

OK---that logic sounds good doesn't it?

But---in order to accomplish what Whisenhunt was aiming to do, you are risking:

1. the snap
2. the toss (an INSIDE underhanded pitch, that could easily be poked away even by the guard getting pushed backward)
3. the catch of the pitch
4. a subsequent fumble or
5. the RB winding out of bounds

On a kneel down you are risking just the snap, and if you go into the victory formation you have two RBs behind the guards to pounce on the ball if the snap is fumbled AND you have a RB safety in case the ball squirts backward.

What's even worse than the call itself in some respects is not having the RB prepared to do the right thing---which means you haven't practiced the play and the situation with him---nor have you communicated what he is supposed to do to him during the timeout.

Everything you are talking about, however, is assuming there is a high likelihood of a fumble, which there is not. There is as much liklihood of a fumble as there is any combination of big punt return, blocked punt return, shanked punt or muffed snap on the punt.

Kneeling because of the risk of a fumble is both scared football and incredibly poor time management since the playclock starts immediately versus the running of a play, the unpiling and replacing of the ball to start the playclock.

Arguing the pitch is valid. It could be termed as unneccesary for sure. But taking that argument to the point of kneeling and punting is an enormous stretch. Epic stretch.

And Dockett said in the RW article on the cards site that prior to RW going in, he saw Beanie talking to RW about the importance of securing the ball, so it was being drilled into him.

Bottom line, the risk/reward for Whis' approach is a vastly better ratio than what you are proposing. You are suggesting to gameplan completely around the low probablity of a fumble to the point of giving the patriots the maximum time possible on the clock without factoring in any of the probability of the potential punt block/shank/return issues. I just fail to see the logic in that approach over Whis' logic.

 

[D-Dogg]

Russ---there is just no way you want to risk contact anywhere near the ball in any shape or fashion in that situation. That's the problem with the play. Even if the play was 3rd and 2---you can't risk the fumble, not when you can run the clock down to 30 seconds.

Whaaa? If it is 3rd and 2, you pick up the first down and end the game. And then, if you reaaaaaallly want to, you can finally kneel down.

It's the victory formation, not the "about to punt and cross our fingers" formation.

If Whis kneeled and punted on 3rd and 2, he should be fired after the game.

 

[D-Dogg]

If you and I saw him cutting back into the teeth of the defense we would have thrown nutties. Honestly..

I agree completely...that was a HUGE error. If he hadn't fumbled, I'd have been complaining about that a lot. The play was designed to go outside the D and hopefully get past a player and pick up the first, worst case add some more time to the reset of the playclock. Turning it back inside defeated both of those goals, and was right into the teeth of the defense where things get dicey, so doubly bad.

Until the fumble, RW's decisons on the play were not good.

 

[daves]

Russ---there is just no way you want to risk contact anywhere near the ball in any shape or fashion in that situation. That's the problem with the play. Even if the play was 3rd and 2---you can't risk the fumble, not when you can run the clock down to 30 seconds.

By that logic, why run a play on 2nd down and risk TWO fumbles (on 2nd & 3rd downs)? Why run a play on 1st down? That sounds like the definition of "playing not to lose".

...dave

 

[Phrazbit]

Apologies if this has already been addressed, but can someone recall a situation where a team knelt the ball with the intention of punting it away afterwards? It just doesnt happen. Can you imagine the hate we would have taken if we knelt 3 times then gave up a big punt return and lost?

Seriously, the problem was not the play call but the execution. Whiz coached a phenomenal game from beginning to end. Take issue with Ryan Williams baffling decision to treat a 3rd and 13 like third and short by throwing himself into the teeth of 3 defenders. Was he trying to leap over them or something and make it 3rd and 11?

So, rip Williams for his horrible start to his career, 2 fumbles in a mere 18 carries and 22 total yards?! But Whiz coached a team with a makeshift line, a QB who cant complete anything further than 10 yards, and almost no running game, to a win against a superbowl favorite in their own building.

 

[Russ Smith]

So, rip Williams for his horrible start to his career, 2 fumbles in a mere 18 carries and 22 total yards?! But Whiz coached a team with a makeshift line, a QB who cant complete anything further than 10 yards, and almost no running game, to a win against a superbowl favorite in their own building.

Yep they were 35-1 in the last 36 games in that stadium and we beat them with a QB who lost his job a few weeks ago, 2 RB's less than 100% and an OL that is on paper mediocre.

Defense and playing within ourselves on offense was the secret.

 

[Cardiac]

Someone asked this pages ago and got no clear reply, are you really suggesting nobody ever coached Ryan Williams on how to avoid fumbling?

It happens, it was a damn near tragedy my girlfriend actually came running into the room where I was watching because she was afraid I'd gotten hurt or something the way I reacted. But to say he fumbled because he wasn't properly prepared by his coach is a massive leap in logic.

I wouldn't have pitched the ball wide for the very reasons you said, dangerous, increases the odds he goes out of bounds. But the pitch was fine and he didn't run out of bounds in fact he cut in which suggests he probably was told don't go out of bounds, he just didn't get wide enough before cutting in.

LSH made a mistake too IMHO but Donald already explained his excuse, the high bounce convinced him he ought to just take the knee. I disagree but I have no idea how close the guys were to him when he made that decision, he probably figured they'll get me in less than 6 seconds anyways so better to get the ball at the 20.

There are plenty of things that happen in the course of a game that aren't the result of poor coaching.

Fully agree. I mean can we really say every time a player makes a mistake it's because he wasn't coached about it? Or maybe, just maybe, players make nano second reaction type decisions and they get it wrong. I'm not even convinced Hyphen was wrong.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Apologies if this has already been addressed, but can someone recall a situation where a team knelt the ball with the intention of punting it away afterwards? It just doesnt happen. Can you imagine the hate we would have taken if we knelt 3 times then gave up a big punt return and lost?

Seriously, the problem was not the play call but the execution. Whiz coached a phenomenal game from beginning to end. Take issue with Ryan Williams baffling decision to treat a 3rd and 13 like third and short by throwing himself into the teeth of 3 defenders. Was he trying to leap over them or something and make it 3rd and 11?

So, rip Williams for his horrible start to his career, 2 fumbles in a mere 18 carries and 22 total yards?! But Whiz coached a team with a makeshift line, a QB who cant complete anything further than 10 yards, and almost no running game, to a win against a superbowl favorite in their own building.

agreed.

I'm no stranger to calling Wiz out... but really? after THAT game? and after THAT play which pretty much every team runs all the time in that situation? You don't kneel on the ball before you have to punt. I've NEVER seen that happen and only battered cardinals fans would even think that's an option because we've seen that Ryan Williams type play three times in the last 14 years (Larry Centers versus the Bengals, Edge/Warner v. the Rams) whereas no other team's fans have probably seen it more than once.

 

[DoTheDew]

Why are we spending all week arguing about something that didn't stop us from winning?

Move on.

It's entirely possible that if we'd taken a knee, we'd have committed a pass interference 40 yards down the field after the punt and NE would have missed the FG that way, and the anti-Whiz (should read anti-upper management) crowd would be on here shouting about how we should have gone for it on 3rd down so we had a chance to run the clock out.

As for there being "no chance" of a 1st down there, consider that when you know the defense is going all out for the fumble they aren't going to be as focused on tackling AND they are more prone to commit a stupid penalty (we've done it countless times in the past when roles were reversed).

 

[Darkside]

The one thing I coulld complain about with Whiz in that situation was playing Williams over Wells. In his presser, Whiz was asked why Williams was in instead of Wells and Whiz simply answered, "because it was his turn". I don't like that answer and hope there was more to it than that. With the game on the line, you don't put a guy in who is more apt to fumble, and much less experienced, just because it is his turn.

I keep going back and forth on this. I dislike it for all the reasons most people do. But I like it because it causes players to maximize their opportunities. I also like it because these are grown men and I don't think you should try to protect them from themselves. Lastly, I really think it's a depth and experience thing. Sounds crazy, but I'd rather have RW fumbling in week 2 than week 10. I don't expect him to fumble in that situation again. From a depth standpoint it prepares your players and makes them better backups, especially in situations that matter.

When you combine all that I can see the advantages VS the disadvantages. But it would be nice to ride the hot hand, especially if someone is having a monster game. Given his rotation philosophy, one has to wonder if Beanie even has some of the huge games he had last year. Was he still in there merely because of injuries, or because he was having a huge day? If Ryan Williams were healthy, I'm starting to think Beanie's huge days last year would be only good this year because he'd be splitting major time.

 

[Stout]

Whaaa? If it is 3rd and 2, you pick up the first down and end the game. And then, if you reaaaaaallly want to, you can finally kneel down.

It's the victory formation, not the "about to punt and cross our fingers" formation.

If Whis kneeled and punted on 3rd and 2, he should be fired after the game.

Agreed. 3rd and 13? I say you take a knee. 3rd and 2? You run the ball.

 

[Shane]

Agreed. 3rd and 13? I say you take a knee. 3rd and 2? You run the ball.

Well you and Mith are in the very very very clear minority. Nor can either if you cite a time when another nfl coach has empowered that decision?

 

[Rats]

We got the best of fate pure and simple. We won. That is the only thing that makes this playcalling ok. We lose and it is a whole different animal. That fumble 9 times out of 10 is disaterous and the kicker makes the kick and is handed a win. He didn't and we live to fight another day.....