We Won Despite CKW...

[Chris_Sanders]

That was a lot of posts to trash. Jim Hart, you were out of line on this thread and will take a short break.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Belichick, Fox, Coughlin, Smith(Atlanta), Shanahan, Reid, Harbaugh, Fisher, Tomlin, McCarthy,Harbaugh(baltimore), Turner, Carrol(maybe) ok you win I can name 12-13....

Some of these guys...absolutely no way:

Whisenhunt

42-40 or 51% winning percentage.

He is 4-2 in the playoffs 75% winning percentage.

He has had one losing season in 5 years

John Fox:

38 - 44 for a 46% winning percentage

Playoffs: 1-2 33% winning percentage

One losing season in 5 years

Mike Shannahan

27 - 39 for a 41% winning percentage

Playoffs: Not Applicable

4 out of 5 losing seasons

I could pull more.

 

[Stout]

Wow, I finally get a chance to visit the board again, and this has exploded. Huh.

First of all, to the holier-than-thous on this thread: I stipulated that I thought CKW coached a hell of a game until the end, so all those 'idiots that just want to bag our coach' and 'idiots calling for his head' comments can be shoved back down a few throats. That said, we shouldn't have knelt for THREE straight plays--that was my knee-jerk, battered card fan syndrome talking. We DEFINITELY should have taken the knee on the last play. 2 yard loss? Big friggin' deal. 3 seconds less time off the clock? Big friggin' deal. With 13 yards to go, we weren't getting a 1st down, so we'd still have to punt. And, to top it off, instead of calling just a run, he calls a PITCH play. I don't care that the pitch worked--it's needlessly risky. I'll stand by that--should have knelt on 3rd down, no ifs ands or buts.

LSH is getting a free pass. If he runs the ball out of the end zone, NE doesn't get the 2 minute warning TO and the game is over.

Yamon. Feely was flipping out on the sidelines when he took the touchback. I was flipping out at home.

 

[schutd]

I also credit Whisenhunt for what he deserves---

You would be standing here alone, Chris, if Gostkowski makes the FG and the Cardinals lose because of one of the stupidest plays in Arizona Cardinal football history.

Funny how you can call it a good play because Whisenhunt got away with it, isn't it?

There is NO chance you are right on this one. NONE.

Sorry, Id be standing with him. Nothing reeks of tail between legs like a kneel and punt. Its garbage football. You give your back the ball, and let him do what hes paid to do. Most of the time they'll be fine. This time he wasnt.

Kneel and punt. pfffft. Now THATD be SOC....

 

[schutd]

I guess...the other blunder made me just as mad so it made the pitch worse. Why didn't Whiz or anyone say to run the ball out on the kick off? That was a major bone head play too...because if he did that...the 18 yard run by Williams would have iced the game.

Yah, thats totally on the coach. You guys are hilarious.

 

[D-Dogg]

You people who are defending Whiz on this are just being totally unrealistic.

A guy can be a good HC and have holes in his game, late game management is one peculiar hole in the dudes game.

Calling a running play with a rookie RB in that situation is bad, calling a pitch a lot worse.

Forget telling him not to fumble I agree that's a given, forget telling him to get down, that's all too late there for a rookie to absord, it's not the way people think and you could as easily cause a fumble putting that in his head as not given how green he is to the NFL.

One point we should make this AINT PW football, there aren't 6 foot 3 inch 300lb monsters who run a 4.7 40 in Peewee football!!!!

Defending Whiz against being fired, fine, defending him overall fine, defending this?

Go on with your bad self, just stamp homer on your forehead IMO.

Chances are Miller called the play, Whiz didn't negate it and is just covering for him, JMO.

The argument about WHO was running it was valid. The argument about whether a pitch or a standard run is valid (though meaningless, because the pitch came off without effort).

The argument that you should simply kneel and punt rather than run in that scenario is tenuous at best. Time, negative play, no chance at all to pick up a first and end the game, etc. That is where people are having an issue.

Personally, I think LSH should have been the guy running a play like that, and I'm fine with the pitch. He has very good ball security, knows to not go out of bounds and had the most opportunity to squirt through for 15 yards to pickup a first down. RW took the run back to the inside into the teeth of the defense, which made it worse, rather than going outside the tackles. LSH would have had a chance to make something happen.

This concept that's been popping around infuriates me: "it's very difficult to pick up the first down, so just give it up and punt and hope Hall of Famer Tom Brady and unguardable Gronk don't use the sidelines and get into FG range with a phenomenal kicker who's already made two 50 yard FGs. Maybe Brady will be dumb enough to throw it down the middle. Oh, and lets give him an extra 5 seconds, too."

You play to WIN, which means run the ball and give it your best shot to pick up the first down, or bare minimum get positive yards to push the punt that much deeper. If you are forced to give the ball back, so be it. But you don't give it up. The odds of a blocked punt, shanked punt, big punt return or Brady moving into FG position are just as big as a fumble taking place on a run play. Yes, perhaps the wrong guy was chosen to run it, but at least Whis didn't tuck his junk Buffalo Bill style and elect to kneel on it and punt.

 

[Duckjake]

The argument about WHO was running it was valid. The argument about whether a pitch or a standard run is valid (though meaningless, because the pitch came off without effort).

The argument that you should simply kneel and punt rather than run in that scenario is tenuous at best. Time, negative play, no chance at all to pick up a first and end the game, etc. That is where people are having an issue.

Personally, I think LSH should have been the guy running a play like that, and I'm fine with the pitch. He has very good ball security, knows to not go out of bounds and had the most opportunity to squirt through for 15 yards to pickup a first down. RW took the run back to the inside into the teeth of the defense, which made it worse, rather than going outside the tackles. LSH would have had a chance to make something happen.

This concept that's been popping around infuriates me: "it's very difficult to pick up the first down, so just give it up and punt and hope Hall of Famer Tom Brady and unguardable Gronk don't use the sidelines and get into FG range with a phenomenal kicker who's already made two 50 yard FGs. Maybe Brady will be dumb enough to throw it down the middle. Oh, and lets give him an extra 5 seconds, too."

You play to WIN, which means run the ball and give it your best shot to pick up the first down, or bare minimum get positive yards to push the punt that much deeper. If you are forced to give the ball back, so be it. But you don't give it up. The odds of a blocked punt, shanked punt, big punt return or Brady moving into FG position are just as big as a fumble taking place on a run play. Yes, perhaps the wrong guy was chosen to run it, but at least Whis didn't tuck his junk Buffalo Bill style and elect to kneel on it and punt.

Excellent analysis. Very pertinent is the bolded above. Our punt coverage unit has been erratic dating back to last season. Leon Washington averaged 17.5 yards per return and the NE return guy had averaged 12.5.

But CKW had faith in the 3 and out Defense and that's why he ran the ball in that situation. Even if there's a fumble the 3 and out gang would keep the Patriots from scoring.

Has there ever been a team better at holding teams inside the 30, forcing FGs and then having the opposition miss?

 

[gmabel830]

I really wonder what the reaction would be for the people insisting that we should have taken a knee if we had done so and given up the subsequent game-winning FG. The clarity seems crystal in hindsight.

 

[D-Dogg]

For those still trotting out the "should have kneeled" argument, go download the Cardinals podcast and listen to this week's In the Red Zone with Whis and Doug & Wolf. Whis goes into great detail about the call, and why kneeling and punting was not an option.

Sounds exactly like what everyone has said already, but straight from CKW's mouth. He gets VERY specific about the time impact as well. I expect that once you listen, you will drop it. So please go now.

 

[Mulli]

I agree Ddug, but I will never listen to Wolfley ever again.

 

[D-Dogg]

I agree Ddug, but I will never listen to Wolfley ever again.

He doesn't talk much in this interview, mostly CKW. Of course, he does try to get Whis to give away the tell that caused Kolb to call the sneak play for TD, and I wish I could see Whis' face when he responds. Dumb, dumb question.

It's a very good listen though, he specifically addresses the comments to the "kneel and punt" crew.

 

[Mulli]

He doesn't talk much in this interview, mostly CKW. Of course, he does try to get Whis to give away the tell that caused Kolb to call the sneak play for TD, and I wish I could see Whis' face when he responds. Dumb, dumb question.

It's a very good listen though, he specifically addresses the comments to the "kneel and punt" crew.

Does he address what his winning percentage would be if the Cards punted on third down more often?

 

[Russ Smith]

Sounds exactly like what everyone has said already, but straight from CKW's mouth. He gets VERY specific about the time impact as well. I expect that once you listen, you will drop it. So please go now.

Did you have a straight face when you wrote that? You've been here long enough to know we never drop anything.

Hell I'm surprised I'm not still saying we should have picked Roy Williams over Fitz!

 

[Mulli]

Did you have a straight face when you wrote that? You've been here long enough to know we never drop anything.

Hell I'm surprised I'm not still saying we should have picked Roy Williams over Fitz!

And Reggie Williams, whoever that was.

 

[ajcardfan]

OK, Dems---do your best to tell us what running play versus a stacked box would have worked for 13 yards and a first down?

There isn't a running play on planet Earth that would have worked in that down and distance and situation.

Actually, teams quite often bust runs at the end of a game when the defense is stacking to stop the run. If the RB breaks the first line, often no one is there with an angle to stop them.

It happens every week at every level of football. It's happened God only knows how many times to the Cardinals themselves over the years.

 

[Stout]

Does he address what his winning percentage would be if the Cards punted on third down more often?

Again, way to be an absolute jerk. You've lowered my opinion of you significantly. One comment on this thread would have just been silly. Starting a thread about it is a douche move. Way to show your true colors, Mulli.

 

[john h]

Now, don't get me wrong...I am so incredibly stoked that we won yesterday. I'll prove it in a breathtaking new thread in a minute. For now, let's address the stupidity behind the situation that could have led to a heartbreaking loss.

The Pats are out of timeouts. We are NOT going to throw the ball. We can take all but 20 seconds off the clock. What is the ONLY FRICKING DECISION in this situation? KNEEL!!! For three straight plays, you KNEEL THE EFFING BALL!!! I was screaming at the TV because we wouldn't kneel. So, of course, because our coach was stupid (he even called a pitch play!) we went on to fumble the ball.

Hey, he coached a heck of a game for 59 minutes. Led us to a victory in that time. I had no problem with his two challenges. Not kneeling with the ball in that situation, however, is inexcusable.

This sort of goes along with Feeley having a heart attack when our kick returner stayed in the end-zone rather than run it out and use up time the last time the Patriots kicked off. Feeley went berserk on the sideline. He obviously was very much into the game and understood the implication of this. Wonder how many other players noticed this like Feeley? Perhaps he was concerned about fumbling which would be a legitimate reason. Maybe one of the other players told him to down it? I would like to hear the coaches take on this. Hindsight is always perfect of course. So in hindsight we won and what ever we did was right. I am glad we have Feeley as our kicker as I have confidence in this guy. He has been doing this for a long time now and I do not think nerves play much in his kicking.
I would have bet my house that N.E. would have made that short kick after this kicker had nailed 4 kicks right down the middle. I sat on my sofa stunned when he missed. Even the announcers sound stunned and did not seem to grasp what had happened for a second or two. Then the stupid TV station suddenly switches to the NYG game when the upset of the year had just occurred under dramatic circumstances. When that game was over and they went back to Terrry, Jimmy and company they gave us about 7 seconds of coverage and talked mostly about the Giants big come from behind victory. WTF!

 

[crisper57]

Agree, John. We lost despite that and LSH. He should've brought that ball out before the 2 minute warning. Sure, every time we return a kickoff, it seems like we get busted for holding, but if he ran of 6 seconds on that play, he would have essentially taken another timeout from NE. I think that is why Feely was so animated after that play on the sideline.

 

[D-Dogg]

This sort of goes along with Feeley having a heart attack when our kick returner stayed in the end-zone rather than run it out and use up time the last time the Patriots kicked off. Feeley went berserk on the sideline. He obviously was very much into the game and understood the implication of this. Wonder how many other players noticed this like Feeley? Perhaps he was concerned about fumbling which would be a legitimate reason. Maybe one of the other players told him to down it? I would like to hear the coaches take on this. Hindsight is always perfect of course.

Whis addressed that as well, slightly - as I suspected, the funny bounce the ball took at the one caused LSH to not take it out. Otherwise he would have...and we ALL know LSH loves to take the ball out even when he shouldn't.

 

[gmabel830]

I caught the Whiz interview yesterday on the radio... his logic seemed extremely well thought out and reasonable.

 

[daves]

Actually, teams quite often bust runs at the end of a game when the defense is stacking to stop the run. If the RB breaks the first line, often no one is there with an angle to stop them.

... Especially after several runs up the middle, with the D expecting a run up the middle, getting Williams into space on the edge quickly with a pitch makes sense to me. Too bad he cut back inside and lost his handle on the ball!

...dave

 

[D-Dogg]

... Especially after several runs up the middle, with the D expecting a run up the middle, getting Williams into space on the edge quickly with a pitch makes sense to me. Too bad he cut back inside and lost his handle on the ball!

...dave

Whis specifically mentioned the play was designed to go outside for a couple of reasons...to get outside and in space, and also to develop longer and wider so the spot and starting of the playclock if it were unsuccessful would take longer (which I was hugely impressed with that the extra second or two there was on his mind...brilliant clock management and that is something I've busted on Whis for in the past.)

I was disappointed when RW took it inside myself, but then forgot all about it when the ball popped out.

 

[conraddobler]

I think we can all just drop this, Whis does some strange things in terms of end game stuff.

The whole team though tightens up, it's like the last vestiges of here we go again and I for one am rooting for the entire team to flush that out of their systems, expect to win, play smart, finish the game strong and unafraid.

Just please be smart coaches... players..., smart is good, not afraid, not expecting to lose just matter of fact let's finish this smart and I think we all agree we want that.

 

[Mulli]

I think we can all just drop this, Whis does some strange things in terms of end game stuff.

The whole team though tightens up, it's like the last vestiges of here we go again and I for one am rooting for the entire team to flush that out of their systems, expect to win, play smart, finish the game strong and unafraid.

Just please be smart coaches... players..., smart is good, not afraid, not expecting to lose just matter of fact let's finish this smart and I think we all agree we want that.

bravo, sir. bravo.

 

[Mitch]

Whis specifically mentioned the play was designed to go outside for a couple of reasons...to get outside and in space, and also to develop longer and wider so the spot and starting of the playclock if it were unsuccessful would take longer (which I was hugely impressed with that the extra second or two there was on his mind...brilliant clock management and that is something I've busted on Whis for in the past.)

I was disappointed when RW took it inside myself, but then forgot all about it when the ball popped out.

OK---that logic sounds good doesn't it?

But---in order to accomplish what Whisenhunt was aiming to do, you are risking:

1. the snap
2. the toss (an INSIDE underhanded pitch, that could easily be poked away even by the guard getting pushed backward)
3. the catch of the pitch
4. a subsequent fumble or
5. the RB winding out of bounds

On a kneel down you are risking just the snap, and if you go into the victory formation you have two RBs behind the guards to pounce on the ball if the snap is fumbled AND you have a RB safety in case the ball squirts backward.

What's even worse than the call itself in some respects is not having the RB prepared to do the right thing---which means you haven't practiced the play and the situation with him---nor have you communicated what he is supposed to do to him during the timeout.

This speaks to poor preparation---because if what you get is the RB cutting the play back into the teeth of the pursuit, so much so that even big NT Vince Willfork is in the vicinity.

The LAST thing you want in that situation is for the RB to have to absorb a tackle---and these days the way defenders are taught to lead head first into the ball (as Spikes did) or the way they are taught to stand up the RB so that other teammates can rip away at the ball (just the way Ryan Williams fumbled versus Seattle)---you just can't risk it---not in that down and distance and with that little time left on the clock.

So, to recap, two things were absolutely wrong about the play:

1. The risk factors of the play to begin with.
2. The coaches' lack of preparation of the play evidenced precisely by what the RB decided to do. Ryan Williams had not been coached to do the right thing.

Now---I know many of you will say as you have the past two days that "Ryan Williams should have known better."

This is exactly what coaching is for---it's to prevent what happened with Williams from happening on the play.

LaRod Stephens-Howling should have known better. Have we ever seen him down a ball a mere two yards into the endzone? No. But there again---obviously no one emphasized to him the need to run the ball out on a shorter kickoff if that's what they got---which it was.

Was LSH prepared?

Obviously not.

Even though coaches can have 100% trust in a player's instincts---what every coach will tell you is, if you haven't practiced the play and made clear what the key players have to do in that situation, again you are leaving too much up to chance.

However, the reason why we can smile today is that the FG block team was FULLY prepared---it was genius of Kevin Spencer to have Paris Lenon sprint unexpectedly from right to left in order to distract and hurry the kicker, especially with the concern everyone now has about the Cardinals' FG blocking prowess.

As Yogi Berra would say, "that was preparation ahead of time."