What’s Wrong with Murray?

[Stout]

This is a tough one for me. Kyler cant help his height. For the the team, knowing his height, it should be paramount to surround their less-than-ideal-height QB with talent that doesnt exacerbate the issue. Putting 5'8" receivers in the slot when you have a 5'10" QB just sounds foolish. Yet thats what we did. So I dont view it as an excuse. While I agree its a problem, its an FO problem, not a Murray one, in this instance...

More than fair.

 

[DVontel]

its an FO problem

Steve Keim was certainly a special guy.

 

[DeAnna]

What's wrong is that he is regressing

I think the Cards will keep him - if only because of his huge salary. Otherwise, his auditions have gone very poorly. Seems like he is playing scared again and doesn't let plays develop.

 

[Chopper0080]

I challenge the "scared" designation and would use "small". He plays like a small QB. He is aware of the big athletes around him unlike other smaller QBs. His arm looks weak and small. His pocket presence looks like someone who wants to escape. He doesn't play with confidence.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I think its been clear since 2022 because of just how small Rondale Moore is he doesnt attempt the same throws he did when Larry was the slot or when Kirk was the slot. He's not throwing back shoulder fades to Hollywood Brown (at least from memory)

Its the intermediate game where we're asking our 5'10" to throw to guys shorter than him thats been an issue. It wasnt like Kyler suddenly got better on the deep ball when Hopkins returned. He didnt. He just got better on the intermediate throws.

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How tall do you think Christian Kirk is?

 

[SoonerLou]

How tall do you think Christian Kirk is?

4 inches taller than Rondale Moore and Greg Dortch. 2 inches taller than Hollywood Brown.

 

[nashman]

IMO at the moment Murray has a superior support cast to what Mahomes is working with.

That’s a joke right?

 

[Alan]

It almost seemed like Kyler was told not to leave the pocket yesterday and it screwed everything up.

 

[oaken1]

That’s a joke right?

That’s a joke right?

A good QB elevates the players around him. Makes average wr's look good and good ones look great.
It's very possible that DHop and Kirk made Kyler look better than he was...
But the simple truth is that a great QB does not need a great supporting cast....decent is enough Kurt Warner took us within moments of a Lombardi trophy with what everyone said was the worst team to make the playoffs in NFL history.
Kyler just isn't that guy. Might be in five or six years. But as it stands he ain't that guy.

But yeah...the chefs offense is nearly completely bereft of talent ..they have a couple linemen and an aging kelce

 

[slanidrac16]

Yeah...I don't know how you go into 2024 still evaluating Kyler.

Seems an awful lot of people think you can’t evaluate Kyler with this roster. I’m not one of them.

 

[phillycard]

A good QB elevates the players around him. Makes average wr's look good and good ones look great.
It's very possible that DHop and Kirk made Kyler look better than he was...
But the simple truth is that a great QB does not need a great supporting cast....decent is enough Kurt Warner took us within moments of a Lombardi trophy with what everyone said was the worst team to make the playoffs in NFL history.
Kyler just isn't that guy. Might be in five or six years. But as it stands he ain't that guy.

But yeah...the chefs offense is nearly completely bereft of talent ..they have a couple linemen and an aging kelce

Those WR's are awful. A lot of the stank is masked because they have that arrowhead with the KC inside on their helmet, but you make a good point Oaken.

 

[phillycard]

Seems an awful lot of people think you can’t evaluate Kyler with this roster. I’m not one of them.

Facts. The eye test is what it is, and he was NOT good yesterday.

 

[DVontel]

A good QB elevates the players around him. Makes average wr's look good and good ones look great.

Okay, this is not a Kyler defense statement, but fans need to stop with this.

Herbert isn’t ”elevating” Quentin Johnston any better & Josh Allen hasn’t elevated Gabe Davis any better than he was years ago.

 

[nashman]

A good QB elevates the players around him. Makes average wr's look good and good ones look great.
It's very possible that DHop and Kirk made Kyler look better than he was...
But the simple truth is that a great QB does not need a great supporting cast....decent is enough Kurt Warner took us within moments of a Lombardi trophy with what everyone said was the worst team to make the playoffs in NFL history.
Kyler just isn't that guy. Might be in five or six years. But as it stands he ain't that guy.

But yeah...the chefs offense is nearly completely bereft of talent ..they have a couple linemen and an aging kelce

lol the Chiefs that just won the superbowl is comparable to the Cards, that might be the dumbest post I have ever read on here… that is all…

 

[Harry]

It almost seemed like Kyler was told not to leave the pocket yesterday and it screwed everything up.

I think that’s accurate. They certainly restricted called QB runs. I don’t think the primary game plan and play calls are focused on winning. They want to see Murray throw as much as possible. Some of it may be to build back arm strength. Some of it may be there’s no sense in a lost year to risk injury.

 

[Harry]

There’s no question it was a bad game and it won’t be the last. This is a bad year to draw many absolute conclusions. I think next season we’ll see a more aggressive effort in free agency. We should also see drafts picks that figure to make quicker contributions. Once those guys get a few games under their belt, then more valid conclusions can be made. Now we’re having to project too much.

 

[slanidrac16]

I think that’s accurate. They certainly restricted called QB runs. I don’t think the primary game plan and play calls are focused on winning. They want to see Murray throw as much as possible. Some of it may be to build back arm strength. Some of it may be there’s no sense in a lost year to risk injury.

The Rams has Kyler’s number. Their ends rush about 3 yards and stop while trying to pressure up the middle.
When the pass rush goes past the point where Kyler sets up they get in trouble.
Kyler didn’t and hasn’t run against the Rams because they control their rush and box him in. They have mastered their technique against us.

 

[Russ Smith]

I must have expressed myself poorly in this post. Several people responded that Murray had a good QB rating and success throwing deep. My point was that type of success combined with his all-in motion required a specific type of receiver. He needs receivers who dominate 50/50 balls, not speed demons. From 2019-2021 he first had Fitzgerald, Kirk and then Hopkins. They were exactly what he needed. Kirk was surprisingly good in this area. In 2020, for example, he ranked third in contested catches among slot receivers.

Marquise Brown is more a speed type. He is handy at stretching the field, but is not good at contested catches. Dortch, of course, has height issues. Wilson has too small a sample size to make an accurate judgment. My point was Murray has the wrong receiving unit to be consistently successful throwing deep. I don’t believe I ever said he couldn’t be successful with the right weapons; he has a strong arm. However, he has a weird motion. He’s not Dan Marino tossing a ball 40 yards into a small basket. Murray depends on his receivers to make a play.

Once they get the right receivers, his ultimate success, once he gets back in form, will depend on having good mechanics on shorter throws. He also needs to be on the move more. He wasn’t Sunday. He needs to use progressions. He must recognize blitzes. Finally he should not throw deep into double coverage.

I’ve written before he is the best running QB in the league. On the move he can demoralize a defense. The new under center offense enhances the running game. With a decent pocket he can throw the tree. He just needs the right guys on the other end of the passes. He can be a winning QB, IMO, but his margin fir error is smaller than some of his competitors.

I posted something during the Sunday night game that I wonder if it has any connection to Kyler too? Austin Ekeler in basically 1 year lost 25% off his top end speed after coming back from Covid which he had in Dec 2021. He got back and a year later was at 20MPH, but then never topped 18 the rest of the 22 season. This year his top speed is 15.5. He's only 28. He does have lots of use, and he's certainly not the only RB to not age well but apparently that was the entire reason the Chargers played hardball with his contract, they had concerns that he was not the same guy after coming back from Covid and they were afraid he wouldn't come back.

Murray had Covid Aug 22, so almost a year later than Ekeler did, basically 14-15 months ago. When he first came back we had reports in camp his arm strength was down. It seemed last year when he played he just wasn't the same guy, he'd always been effective throwing the deep ball, and I agree the WR's helped, but he wasn't underthrowing deep balls until last year.

I think some of it is likely the knee, he doesn't have the legs back fully yet so he doesn't have the arm strength, I don't even know if he's wearing a brace when he plays? But I also wonder if some it is he just has not gotten his arm strength back? And if that's the case it's a huge if as to whether he ever will. He had better treatment and the strain he got was less severe than early Covid was, google says he was back practicing about 5 days after testing positive, but we had reports throughout camp he had a "dead arm".

 

[TheCardFan]

The Rams have the Cardinals number.

FTFY

Totally agree on Kyler but its much more than that.

 

[slanidrac16]

FTFY

Totally agree on Kyler but its much more than that.

Absolutely, but they have the blueprint on how to corral Murray.

 

[Chopper0080]

Okay, this is not a Kyler defense statement, but fans need to stop with this.

Herbert isn’t ”elevating” Quentin Johnston any better & Josh Allen hasn’t elevated Gabe Davis any better than he was years ago.

Here is where I take the elevating statement. A top QB can't make a WR get open. He can't make them study or know the offense. However, the best QBs can maximize the players who do and/or when they do. Guys like Greg Dortch who can get open and do seem to put in the work can be successful under better QBs. The reason is those players are rarely primary reads, but if they have a QB who can read defenses and work through progressions, they will get the opportunities to make plays. What they do with it from there is up to them.

In terms of Herbert and Johnston. My argument is that Herbert elevated Johnston by putting that potential game winning TD in his hands. Johnston just couldn't catch it.

 

[football karma]

here is my issue with the "he is too small" argument on Kyler:

that didnt seem to be an issue for most of 2020 and 2021. Since that time, here is what has changed:

1. Defenses have changed their approach -- a controlled pass rush focusing on keeping him in the pocket and pressure in his face + dropping 7 into coverage (btw- a league trend regardless of Kyler).

2. His offensive line has gotten steadily worse since that time -- especially G-C-G. For much of 2020 and 2021, RG was Justin Pugh. not a pro bowler, but a solid guard that can be counted on. Rodney Hudson was the C, and when he was out, it was Max Garcia.

3. I think there is something to the "WRs with Size" thing. Hopkins, AJ Green and Kirk have been replaced with Hollywood, Rondale and Dortch. It pretty much eliminates 50/50 type throws (and those throws happen all the time in the NFL).

the optimist in me says fixing 2 and 3 are in the teams control. 1 will be on Kyler.

 

[Chopper0080]

here is my issue with the "he is too small" argument on Kyler:

that didnt seem to be an issue for most of 2020 and 2021. Since that time, here is what has changed:

1. Defenses have changed their approach -- a controlled pass rush focusing on keeping him in the pocket and pressure in his face + dropping 7 into coverage (btw- a league trend regardless of Kyler).

2. His offensive line has gotten steadily worse since that time -- especially G-C-G. For much of 2020 and 2021, RG was Justin Pugh. not a pro bowler, but a solid guard that can be counted on. Rodney Hudson was the C, and when he was out, it was Max Garcia.

3. I think there is something to the "WRs with Size" thing. Hopkins, AJ Green and Kirk have been replaced with Hollywood, Rondale and Dortch. It pretty much eliminates 50/50 type throws (and those throws happen all the time in the NFL).

the optimist in me says fixing 2 and 3 are in the teams control. 1 will be on Kyler.

He plays too small.

 

[oaken1]

Okay, this is not a Kyler defense statement, but fans need to stop with this.

Herbert isn’t ”elevating” Quentin Johnston any better & Josh Allen hasn’t elevated Gabe Davis any better than he was years ago.

we all have different definitions of elevate...
but to me, there are some QB's who make throws other QB's wont even attempt. the tight windows,..the drop ins over coverage...
a good QB makes these throws instead of throwing out of bounds or scrambling or holding the ball... and those throws give those WR's a few more opportunities to make plays...not a ton week to week... but by the end of the season it can become 20 or 30 more catches for an extra 300 yards or so...
take an average wr from 60 catches for 850 yards and make him a 90 catches for 1100 yard guy instead....or a guy who normally gets 100 catches for 1300 yds, gets 120 for 1650... because they get more opportunities due to the types of throw the guy can make.

obviously a QB aint gonna help a 4.6 guy beat a corner deep....unless he has a good pump fake

 

[Sparky16]

Short and Scared, its that simple. He has regressed into turning backwards and falling, making a 5-6 yard loss into 13. He cant throw over the middle. Is not nearly as fast as people claim, he is quick but not fast. I have never seen him run away from anyone. I laugh when he goes down after being caught from behind by LBs. Still has that defeated pouty look on his face.... is not a leader