What did you expect from Watson as the coach?

[Mainstreet]

Do people forget that Mike D wanted to leave here? He was granted permission to interview and leave since he was under contract but the vast majority of fans were tired of his 7.5 man rotations and being drubbed the Spurs every postseason in a similar fashion because he made no adjustments.

As I recollect, the Spurs were a very good team.

Yes, Mike D'Antoni asked to leave but everything was not black and white. There was friction between GM Steve Kerr and Coach D'Antoni.

Below is a link to an article that covers the story from a historical perspective written by Paul Coro in USA Today dated 11-29-12

When Kerr became general manager in 2007, he and D'Antoni butted heads early when Kerr questioned D'Antoni after a loss for not posting up Amar'e Stoudemire. From there, D'Antoni never felt like he had the support of the basketball operations office, and grew more sensitive to criticisms.

"I think we got frustrated and I got frustrated," D'Antoni told ESPN Los Angeles. "That's why I left. We were there, it seemed like we deserved it, and then it seemed like something happened all the time. Maybe we weren't good enough either. We have to understand that.

"I probably irrationally made a decision right when the season was over. You should take a month to figure it out. I shouldn't have left. That was my fault."

Now it's all water under the bridge but I enjoyed when the Suns were relevant.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2012/11/29/mike-dantoni-regrets-suns-knicks/1734117/

 

[AzStevenCal]

Do people forget that Mike D wanted to leave here? He was granted permission to interview and leave since he was under contract but the vast majority of fans were tired of his 7.5 man rotations and being drubbed the Spurs every postseason in a similar fashion because he made no adjustments.

I'd disagree with this. Yes, Mike chose to leave but we showed him the door and pushed him halfway out of it before he made that choice. And I highly disagree with the idea that most Suns fans wanted him gone. Most Suns fans loved him IMO, although he'd clearly fallen out of favor on the message boards and with local sports radio. I don't think "our group" is all that representative of the overall fan perspective.

And I also believe that if Barkley hadn't led the crusade against Mike, he'd have stayed in Phoenix until the end of his career. He loved it here and IMO he's by far the best coach we've ever had and that includes the beloved Cotton.

He wasn't perfect, he needed to make a few changes in his approach but he was smart enough to do just that. And with a break or two falling our way, I think we'd have won a championship and along the way he would have made the changes necessary to sustain success post-Nash. JMO.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'd disagree with this. Yes, Mike chose to leave but we showed him the door and pushed him halfway out of it before he made that choice. And I highly disagree with the idea that most Suns fans wanted him gone. Most Suns fans loved him IMO, although he'd clearly fallen out of favor on the message boards and with local sports radio. I don't think "our group" is all that representative of the overall fan perspective.

And I also believe that if Barkley hadn't led the crusade against Mike, he'd have stayed in Phoenix until the end of his career. He loved it here and IMO he's by far the best coach we've ever had and that includes the beloved Cotton.

He wasn't perfect, he needed to make a few changes in his approach but he was smart enough to do just that. And with a break or two falling our way, I think we'd have won a championship and along the way he would have made the changes necessary to sustain success post-Nash. JMO.

This is a very good summation.

 

[JustWinBaby]

Kudos to both Mainstreet and AzStevenCal. - very fair summations of MDA.

I did not agree with everything that Mike did but when you compare him with any of the coaches that have succeeded him it is hard to listen to the unfair criticism he receives from far too many. I wish his teams would have played a little better defense. I wish we would have rebounded a little better and I wish we had gotten a few breaks along the way. I know one thing for sure I never changed a channel or missed one minute of play while he was coach. I watched every pregame and post game. I read every news column and was constantly searching the internet for more info on those teams. I also always wished Robert Sarver would acquire a back up PG for Nash to get him some rest and a back up defensive center that could rebound and play defense alongside Amare, that never happened because Sarver was only willing to pay for 7 players.

Currently Mike has the Rockets playing like those Suns teams he coached. However he has far more depth than he ever had in Phoenix and he is using it.

Yet again coach Watson does not play Bender or Ulis, guys that know how to share the ball. He chooses to play the great PJ Tucker 36 minutes. Our record since Tucker has been a Sun is 141wins and 214 losses. That includes that one miracle season of 48 and 34. I bet MDA would find minutes for both Bender and Ulis.

 

[3rdside]

Watson is doing a good job imo, he has a young team, no PF with experience on the roster right now and a 19yro rookie starting.

Maybe we are 2 wins belows the expectation right now but that is all. At least the team does not have this negative cloud hanging above their heads like during the last years. I credit Watson a lot for that, he brings the correct approach and mentality. It is a work in progress.

There is only one justification for describing Watson as doing a good job and that is if he is deliberately making us lose.

That's it.

Booker - regressed
Knight - regressed, worst player in the league
Offense - appalling, seemingly based on an analytic that suggests Bledsoe is one of the best elbow scorers off pick and rolls in the league (who cares about assists, ball movement and therefore team dynamic, right? Defined by an historically bad assist to turnover ratio (barely above 1:1).
Development of Rookies - marginal, and probably a fail considering we're losing and playing vets
Team Spirit - again, marginal. You say the cloud is removed but from what I can tell there's no screaming and yelling from the coach, no energy rousing speeches during time outs, whatever you're looking for from your coach etc etc. He may be a likable guy but that's hardly a pass on it's own.

 

[3rdside]

Development of Rookies - marginal, and probably a fail considering we're losing and playing vets

Which I guess suggests Watson is either trying to win (in which case he's not doing well) or he's trying to showcase players for a trade (which could be a win if it's Tucker we're trying to get rid of, much less so if it's Knight).

 

[leclerc]

Again with the show casing. We should still have meaningful and consistent minutes to our three rookies along with better defence and not least offence. If Watson is so likable make him a PR guy. A coach should be judged on how the team performs and the development of players, no? What do people say about great coaches like Pop? That he's likable and showcases some disgruntled dude who's playing like a behind? I'm sorry I don't hate Watson I just don't think he's a good coach even a mediocre coach. Even for a tank job. Please spend money on a coach, Sarver. Just once.

Versus Minnesota:
Tucker 35 min, Duds 22 min, Bender DNP
Knight 29 min, Barbosa 14 min, Ulis DNP

Cut 10 and 5 and give the rooks 15 min each.

 

[devilalum]

Problem with assessing Watson is that there is no way to know how much control he has over minutes. Other than that he's fine. The Suns have an oddball collection of marginal players, no real stars, a couple of nice prospects and no chance of going anywhere soon.

I've been impressed by the fact that they have only been blown out a handful of times. They keep fighting right til the end.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I haven't seen anything (on the court) that convinces me Watson is a good head coach but it's far too early to call him a bad coach IMO. Look at Minnesota, did Thibs all of a sudden forget how to coach? That's a more developed team then we have and they have more talent too and they are far from being a factor in this league. It takes time to bring a team together, especially when you're loaded with youth. And like devilalum said, we've been competitive in almost every game.

 

[elindholm]

There is only one justification for describing Watson as doing a good job and that is if he is deliberately making us lose.

That's it.

Booker - regressed
Knight - regressed, worst player in the league
Offense - appalling, seemingly based on an analytic that suggests Bledsoe is one of the best elbow scorers off pick and rolls in the league (who cares about assists, ball movement and therefore team dynamic, right? Defined by an historically bad assist to turnover ratio (barely above 1:1).
Development of Rookies - marginal, and probably a fail considering we're losing and playing vets
Team Spirit - again, marginal. You say the cloud is removed but from what I can tell there's no screaming and yelling from the coach, no energy rousing speeches during time outs, whatever you're looking for from your coach etc etc. He may be a likable guy but that's hardly a pass on it's own.

Yeah, I pretty much have to agree with all of this.

The thing I like best about Watson so far is that he's giving minutes to Chriss. Maybe he's forced into it because of Warren's injury, but at least he's not playing the idiotic Tucker-Booker-Knight-Bledsoe unit for 15 minutes a night.

The thing I like worse about Watson so far is, everything else.

Here's one thing I'd love to know: Is there any team discussion at all about the quality of shots that they take? The players seem utterly oblivious to it as a consideration.

 

[hcsilla]

I'd disagree with this. Yes, Mike chose to leave but we showed him the door and pushed him halfway out of it before he made that choice. And I highly disagree with the idea that most Suns fans wanted him gone. Most Suns fans loved him IMO, although he'd clearly fallen out of favor on the message boards and with local sports radio. I don't think "our group" is all that representative of the overall fan perspective.

And I also believe that if Barkley hadn't led the crusade against Mike, he'd have stayed in Phoenix until the end of his career. He loved it here and IMO he's by far the best coach we've ever had and that includes the beloved Cotton.

He wasn't perfect, he needed to make a few changes in his approach but he was smart enough to do just that. And with a break or two falling our way, I think we'd have won a championship and along the way he would have made the changes necessary to sustain success post-Nash. JMO.

I don't know.

I always thought if Gentry takes over the team earlier, we would have won a championship.

The more patient offense and the much improved defense did miracles despite the squad being weaker than under D'Antoni.

 

[BC867]

And I also believe that if Barkley hadn't led the crusade against Mike, he'd have stayed in Phoenix until the end of his career. He loved it here and IMO he's by far the best coach we've ever had and that includes the beloved Cotton.

He wasn't perfect, he needed to make a few changes in his approach but he was smart enough to do just that. And with a break or two falling our way, I think we'd have won a championship and along the way he would have made the changes necessary to sustain success post-Nash. JMO.

I question how you think D'Antoni would have won a championship when his history was going all for broke during the season and ending up with a spent Steve Nash in the playoffs. No leader is going to succeed if he doesn't prepare for the big picture. In other words, if he is shortsighted.

 

[Matt L]

I don't know.

I always thought if Gentry takes over the team earlier, we would have won a championship.

The more patient offense and the much improved defense did miracles despite the squad being weaker than under D'Antoni.

I really thought Gentry got hosed

 

[3rdside]

I've been impressed by the fact that they have only been blown out a handful of times. They keep fighting right til the end.

Interesting point although I suspect it says more that they like the coach rather than he's much good.


Knowing MDA got canned after a year as Watson might be on track to do, I checked his record with Denver that year ('98-'99, the 50 game lockout season), just for comparison (and as we've been talking about him and as he's the topic of the day with Houston in town).

They went 14-36 and had:

- Nick van Exel
- Antonio McDyess
- Chauncey Billups
- Danny Fortson


That's a decent, but not great amount, of above average NBA talent although:

- Billups played SG - badly (.386% 2ptFG). He's a PG and is only 6'3".
- Fortson was a bruiser in a bruiser's build and not a runner at all.
- Raef LaFrentz was a rookie and missed all but the first 12 games.

...So there's a couple of explanations why DA might not have been able to deliver

Of course, MDA might have just sucked also.


Anyway, I'm not sure this post means much really other than to raise the question:

"Does Watson deserve a second season based on current suck-performance?".

I still lean 'No' at this point but I probably would have said the same about MDA with Denver in '98-'99.

 

[Errntknght]

There's very little positive about Watson. He's in a perfect situation to go all out with player development but he's blowing it. On top of that his offense is painfully unstructured so I don't see our young guys becoming first rate team players - or even second rate. At this rate we'll come out of the the year without much a read on Williams, Ulis, Bender and Jones - perhaps on Chriss. I can't see how he could be doing worse.

 

[JustWinBaby]

I don't know.

I always thought if Gentry takes over the team earlier, we would have won a championship.

The more patient offense and the much improved defense did miracles despite the squad being weaker than under D'Antoni.

Another falsehood about Mike's tenure.

Gentry's team in 09/10 - Ranked 19th in defensive efficiency

Mike's Phoenix Teams were ranked - 12th, 19th, 16th and 17th.

The Great Earl Watson team of this year is ranked 23rd. Houston is 14th.

Mike may not be the greatest defensive coach in history but he is better than anyone Robert Sarver has hired and Steve Kerr's replacement for him.

Why in the world are the Timberwolves struggling on the defensive end, with Thibodeau as their coach? Maybe they do not have the right players. Could that be? Could that have happened to Mike in New York and Los Angeles?

 

[Covert Rain]

I question how you think D'Antoni would have won a championship when his history was going all for broke during the season and ending up with a spent Steve Nash in the playoffs. No leader is going to succeed if he doesn't prepare for the big picture. In other words, if he is shortsighted.

Agreed. Almost only counts in horseshoes. I know people thinking suspensions and injuries could have made the difference in some seasons but what keeps me from being one of those is D'Antoni himself. It seems like in big games against good coaches he lacked the ability to make on the fly adjustments, stayed with certain plays (high pick and roll) despite it getting stopped over and over (he was stubborn to a fault).

He simply couldn't play chess with really good coaches. I think Nash was a better tactician than D'Antoni. His lack of real success since he left here is proof positive. Not to mention he has gutted each team he has gone to defensively. I am keeping an eye on what he is doing with Houston but Houston is top 10 worst in the NBA for opponent scoring last time I checked despite shooting lights out.

Sounds like same old same old to me.

 

[Mainstreet]

Agreed. Almost only counts in horseshoes. I know people thinking suspensions and injuries could have made the difference in some seasons but what keeps me from being one of those is D'Antoni himself. It seems like in big games against good coaches he lacked the ability to make on the fly adjustments, stayed with certain plays (high pick and roll) despite it getting stopped over and over (he was stubborn to a fault).

He simply couldn't play chess with really good coaches. I think Nash was a better tactician than D'Antoni. His lack of real success since he left here is proof positive. Not to mention he has gutted each team he has gone to defensively. I am keeping an eye on what he is doing with Houston but Houston is top 10 worst in the NBA for opponent scoring last time I checked despite shooting lights out.

Sounds like same old same old to me.

I think most Suns fans would gladly take the days of being relevant again, having a winning record and being in the playoffs.

The Suns are so far removed from those days and yet DA is still getting pounded by many on the Suns forum. DA is not coming back to the Suns but give the man his due when he coached the Suns.

 

[Chaplin]

I think most Suns fans would gladly take the days of being relevant again, having a winning record and being in the playoffs.

The Suns are so far removed from those days and yet DA is still getting pounded by many on the Suns forum. DA is not coming back to the Suns but give the man his due when he coached the Suns.

Who's not giving him his due?

The guy had some very successful years here. But if you REALLY want to be realistic, fine, let's be realistic. The main reason he WAS successful wasn't because he wasn't a great coach. The reason he was successful is because he had a certain point guard on the team. PERIOD. Take that point guard away and look what happens.

And don't give me that bull about his "circumstances" with NY and LA. Good coaches are supposed to handle diversity. Why are we even talking about this?

 

[3rdside]

This debate is a killer! If it was all down Steve Nash (and I'll admit I was probably on this side until two days ago) then what the hell is happening in Houston?!

It's all down to Harden? It can't be because he and the rockets sucked last year!

 

[Covert Rain]

The Suns are so far removed from those days and yet DA is still getting pounded by many on the Suns forum. DA is not coming back to the Suns but give the man his due when he coached the Suns.

Hold on....I didn't bring him up. I was responding. I don't see anbyody starting "pound on D'Antoni" threads. He got plenty of "due" when he was here but fans were overwhelmingly done with him by the time he left. He benefited from having a HOF PG in Nash. It's not like he has been devoid of talent in his other stops either. It's just I don't think D'Antoni outside of offense was ever able to get the most out of players here. You can't honestly tell me that if POP coached those same teams we don't have at least one title in the rafter.

I don't think anybody is saying D'Antoni can't help an offense are they?

 

[JustWinBaby]

I think most Suns fans would gladly take the days of being relevant again, having a winning record and being in the playoffs.

The Suns are so far removed from those days and yet DA is still getting pounded by many on the Suns forum. DA is not coming back to the Suns but give the man his due when he coached the Suns.

Amen

But what really good coach wants to work for Robert Sarver?

We are stuck with the likes of Earl Watson, I guess. While we he coaches horrible defense and continues to play PJ freaking Tucker over our youngsters.

What a joke!

 

[3rdside]

Good coaches are supposed to handle diversity.

Flat wrong - of course there's good situations for a coach and bad ones.

Just like there's good or bad situations with a girl you're trying to pick up or a new person you're trying to be friendly with; sometimes you're just not going to have 'it' (rapport / chemistry) whether that be with individuals or with certain groups of people and nothing you can do is going to change that.

 

[JustWinBaby]

Who's not giving him his due?

The guy had some very successful years here. But if you REALLY want to be realistic, fine, let's be realistic. The main reason he WAS successful wasn't because he wasn't a great coach. The reason he was successful is because he had a certain point guard on the team. PERIOD. Take that point guard away and look what happens.

And don't give me that bull about his "circumstances" with NY and LA. Good coaches are supposed to handle diversity. Why are we even talking about this?

I guess Thibodeau is not a good coach.

Please explain how he is a good coach when his team is losing?

I guess Mike is in a special category.

I cannot wait to hear the spin.

 

[JustWinBaby]

Hold on....I didn't bring him up. I was responding. I don't see anbyody starting "pound on D'Antoni" threads. He got plenty of "due" when he was here but fans were overwhelmingly done with him by the time he left. He benefited from having a HOF PG in Nash. It's not like he has been devoid of talent in his other stops either. It's just I don't think D'Antoni outside of offense was ever able to get the most out of players here. You can't honestly tell me that if POP coached those same teams we don't have at least one title in the rafter.

I don't think anybody is saying D'Antoni can't help an offense are they?

It is highly unlikely with Robert Sarver as owner.

What would have happened if D'Antoni had coached the Spurs with all the talent they had? It is not like Popovich won a championship every year. The Spurs also have always added rather than subtracted players from the mix so that they would remain competitive. Robert Sarver has systematically destroyed the talent on the Phoenix Suns, ever since he purchased this team.

No one wants to play here and no one wants to coach here. That is a fact.