What I Thought I Saw

Harry

ASFN Consultant and Senior Writer
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Posts
12,798
Reaction score
28,179
Location
Orlando, FL
For more years than I'd like to count I've been analyzing the Cards. I've never been less sure in my observations. I honestly thought going into 2016 that this was a very strong team. Now I believe what I'm seeing is that the whole is not equal to the sum of its parts.

In college football momentum often rules the game and one player can take over a game. The more talented team is frequently upset. In the NFL coordination is often more critical. Rarely is it man-to-man abilities. It's much more how a team plays as a team. In this respect the 2016 Cards have failed thus far.

I know this is going to release the hornets, but I think the acquisition of Chandler Jones has hurt the Cardinals. He's more of a 4-3 DE than an OLB. In fact the Cards use him that way. That's how the Cards ended up with Minter covering a RB in pass coverage rather than an OLB. It's not that Jones has played badly, rather it's the Cards lack cover guys for those short routes so critical in third down situations. The Cards can't simply switch to a 4-3 as they lack LBs that could play that structure. They might have been better off getting a few solid LBs for the same money. They needed a better rush but they did decently with Freeney. They might also have been better off if they'd stuck with him.

Another major change that hasn't gone well was letting Rashad Johnson leave. He was the de facto captain of the secondary. As TM has returned things have not gone smoothly. First they played him deep and moved Jefferson up. Jefferson played well but TM was invisible. In the last game they moved TM up and Jefferson back but TM only had a positive impact on one play that I saw. On another play he covered the wrong receiver and that resulted in a huge completion. Jefferson on the other hand was unfamiliar in the Johnson roll overrunning another play that lead to a Rams' score. The secondary looked disjointed all night. The middle of the field was constantly open. Even though he gave up a few bad completions, Cooper was adequate and PP was fine though he made a mistake or two. Virtually all CBs do. Branch has been barely adequate, and he's a major drop off taking on many of TM's responsibilities. Of course TM's injury left little choice other than signing Branch, so mark that one unavoidable..

The biggest deficiency may be the loss of leadership that resulted from the Johnson departure. In 1999 Lomas Brown, Jamir Miller and Larry Centers were allowed to leave and a good Cards team literally fell apart. A team has to be careful not to undervalue leadership. It's never easy to see it will happen but in the case of Johnson I think the Cards lost leadership they're having trouble replacing.

The draft has been a topic of concern and if you check my posts at the time you will see some of these concerns. NK may yet be a player but for a team with Super Bowl aspirations, he was a bad choice. Pick two went for Jones. I would have made that deal too but it didn't help much. Then pick 3 was used on a player not ready to contribute. Boehm and Toner provide decent depth, but again offer no immediate assistance. So while some of these picks may have long term value, they won't likely impact 2016. Left unaided early spots included LB, TE, CB & OL. Finally the Cards again failed to secure a return man. Think about how you felt when the Cards last chance hinged on getting a good kick return. The Cards never had a chance. Returning kicks is an art, not just a routine function. The Cards undervalue it and field position constantly suffers.

So I'm not sure the Cards can recover this year. Can the pieces adjust their edges enough to fit into a solid configuration? Will the team remain fractured and struggle to mediocre results?

This team has too much talent to have a total disaster, but what impact will this have on Fitz's and Palmer's desire to play next season? With Floyd a near cinch to be gone also it's reasonable to wonder if anything will be left of the passing game in 2017. This may be the start of a major rebuild for this team and they're not starting from a very good place.
 

slanidrac16

ASFN Icon
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2002
Posts
16,284
Reaction score
17,283
Location
Plainfield, Il.
Yikes.

I said one of our bigger needs this off season was inside LB. That is coming to fruition. What bothers me most is why the hell is Minter allowed to stay in for obvious passing downs?

I still think this offense can be great, but we /they need to learn some patience. Impose their will on opposing defenses. RUn the ball . Work in some short pass plays and force the defense to come up to stop it. Jab, Jab, Jab and THEN you land the big hook.

Every year one or two teams are a major dissappointment. I hope we are not one of them.
 

MrYeahBut

4 Food groups: beans, chili, cheese, bacon
Supporting Member
Joined
May 20, 2002
Posts
18,001
Reaction score
13,874
Location
Albq
Depressing when you put it that way, Harry, but it's hard to argue against it.

I appreciate the time you put into your posts.
 

Jetstream Green

Kool Aid with a touch of vodka
Joined
Feb 5, 2003
Posts
29,525
Reaction score
16,776
Location
San Antonio, Texas
For more years than I'd like to count I've been analyzing the Cards. I've never been less sure in my observations. I honestly thought going into 2016 that this was a very strong team. Now I believe what I'm seeing is that the whole is not equal to the sum of its parts.

In college football momentum often rules the game and one player can take over a game. The more talented team is frequently upset. In the NFL coordination is often more critical. Rarely is it man-to-man abilities. It's much more how a team plays as a team. In this respect the 2016 Cards have failed thus far.

I know this is going to release the hornets, but I think the acquisition of Chandler Jones has hurt the Cardinals. He's more of a 4-3 DE than an OLB. In fact the Cards use him that way. That's how the Cards ended up with Minter covering a RB in pass coverage rather than an OLB. It's not that Jones has played badly, rather it's the Cards lack cover guys for those short routes so critical in third down situations. The Cards can't simply switch to a 4-3 as they lack LBs that could play that structure. They might have been better off getting a few solid LBs for the same money. They needed a better rush but they did decently with Freeney. They might also have been better off if they'd stuck with him.

Another major change that hasn't gone well was letting Rashad Johnson leave. He was the de facto captain of the secondary. As TM has returned things have not gone smoothly. First they played him deep and moved Jefferson up. Jefferson played well but TM was invisible. In the last game they moved TM up and Jefferson back but TM only had a positive impact on one play that I saw. On another play he covered the wrong receiver and that resulted in a huge completion. Jefferson on the other hand was unfamiliar in the Johnson roll overrunning another play that lead to a Rams' score. The secondary looked disjointed all night. The middle of the field was constantly open. Even though he gave up a few bad completions, Cooper was adequate and PP was fine though he made a mistake or two. Virtually all CBs do. Branch has been barely adequate, and he's a major drop off taking on many of TM's responsibilities. Of course TM's injury left little choice other than signing Branch, so mark that one unavoidable..

The biggest deficiency may be the loss of leadership that resulted from the Johnson departure. In 1999 Lomas Brown, Jamir Miller and Larry Centers were allowed to leave and a good Cards team literally fell apart. A team has to be careful not to undervalue leadership. It's never easy to see it will happen but in the case of Johnson I think the Cards lost leadership they're having trouble replacing.

The draft has been a topic of concern and if you check my posts at the time you will see some of these concerns. NK may yet be a player but for a team with Super Bowl aspirations, he was a bad choice. Pick two went for Jones. I would have made that deal too but it didn't help much. Then pick 3 was used on a player not ready to contribute. Boehm and Toner provide decent depth, but again offer no immediate assistance. So while some of these picks may have long term value, they won't likely impact 2016. Left unaided early spots included LB, TE, CB & OL. Finally the Cards again failed to secure a return man. Think about how you felt when the Cards last chance hinged on getting a good kick return. The Cards never had a chance. Returning kicks is an art, not just a routine function. The Cards undervalue it and field position constantly suffers.

So I'm not sure the Cards can recover this year. Can the pieces adjust their edges enough to fit into a solid configuration? Will the team remain fractured and struggle to mediocre results?

This team has too much talent to have a total disaster, but what impact will this have on Fitz's and Palmer's desire to play next season? With Floyd a near cinch to be gone also it's reasonable to wonder if anything will be left of the passing game in 2017. This may be the start of a major rebuild for this team and they're not starting from a very good place.

I will add replacing the whole right side of the OL has had a major effect on this offense... and Shipley accounting for a lot
 

MrYeahBut

4 Food groups: beans, chili, cheese, bacon
Supporting Member
Joined
May 20, 2002
Posts
18,001
Reaction score
13,874
Location
Albq
I will add replacing the whole right side of the OL has had a major effect on this offense... and Shipley accounting for a lot


Yeah and not having Mathis full time hasn't helped.
 

SeattleCard

Back in Arizona!!!
Joined
Mar 3, 2003
Posts
3,075
Reaction score
786
Location
Mesa, AZ
Harry once again proving to be the most valuable poster on AZFN. Thanks for your thoughts.
 

Jetstream Green

Kool Aid with a touch of vodka
Joined
Feb 5, 2003
Posts
29,525
Reaction score
16,776
Location
San Antonio, Texas
Yeah and not having Mathis full time hasn't helped.

I actually think Mathis has not been all that great when healthy, he can be a major force on a run at times but having Shipley next to him does not benefit when running between the tackles and his pass protection is rather mediocre at best. I actually like Humphries for who he is at this point of his young career while he learns, but center and guard will be a revolving door again next season due to Shipley's inability and Mathis' age
 

oaken1

Stone Cold
Supporting Member
Banned from P+R
Joined
Mar 13, 2004
Posts
18,923
Reaction score
17,467
Location
Modesto, California
For more years than I'd like to count I've been analyzing the Cards. I've never been less sure in my observations. I honestly thought going into 2016 that this was a very strong team. Now I believe what I'm seeing is that the whole is not equal to the sum of its parts.

In college football momentum often rules the game and one player can take over a game. The more talented team is frequently upset. In the NFL coordination is often more critical. Rarely is it man-to-man abilities. It's much more how a team plays as a team. In this respect the 2016 Cards have failed thus far.

I know this is going to release the hornets, but I think the acquisition of Chandler Jones has hurt the Cardinals. He's more of a 4-3 DE than an OLB. In fact the Cards use him that way. That's how the Cards ended up with Minter covering a RB in pass coverage rather than an OLB. It's not that Jones has played badly, rather it's the Cards lack cover guys for those short routes so critical in third down situations. The Cards can't simply switch to a 4-3 as they lack LBs that could play that structure. They might have been better off getting a few solid LBs for the same money. They needed a better rush but they did decently with Freeney. They might also have been better off if they'd stuck with him.

Another major change that hasn't gone well was letting Rashad Johnson leave. He was the de facto captain of the secondary. As TM has returned things have not gone smoothly. First they played him deep and moved Jefferson up. Jefferson played well but TM was invisible. In the last game they moved TM up and Jefferson back but TM only had a positive impact on one play that I saw. On another play he covered the wrong receiver and that resulted in a huge completion. Jefferson on the other hand was unfamiliar in the Johnson roll overrunning another play that lead to a Rams' score. The secondary looked disjointed all night. The middle of the field was constantly open. Even though he gave up a few bad completions, Cooper was adequate and PP was fine though he made a mistake or two. Virtually all CBs do. Branch has been barely adequate, and he's a major drop off taking on many of TM's responsibilities. Of course TM's injury left little choice other than signing Branch, so mark that one unavoidable..

The biggest deficiency may be the loss of leadership that resulted from the Johnson departure. In 1999 Lomas Brown, Jamir Miller and Larry Centers were allowed to leave and a good Cards team literally fell apart. A team has to be careful not to undervalue leadership. It's never easy to see it will happen but in the case of Johnson I think the Cards lost leadership they're having trouble replacing.

The draft has been a topic of concern and if you check my posts at the time you will see some of these concerns. NK may yet be a player but for a team with Super Bowl aspirations, he was a bad choice. Pick two went for Jones. I would have made that deal too but it didn't help much. Then pick 3 was used on a player not ready to contribute. Boehm and Toner provide decent depth, but again offer no immediate assistance. So while some of these picks may have long term value, they won't likely impact 2016. Left unaided early spots included LB, TE, CB & OL. Finally the Cards again failed to secure a return man. Think about how you felt when the Cards last chance hinged on getting a good kick return. The Cards never had a chance. Returning kicks is an art, not just a routine function. The Cards undervalue it and field position constantly suffers.

So I'm not sure the Cards can recover this year. Can the pieces adjust their edges enough to fit into a solid configuration? Will the team remain fractured and struggle to mediocre results?

This team has too much talent to have a total disaster, but what impact will this have on Fitz's and Palmer's desire to play next season? With Floyd a near cinch to be gone also it's reasonable to wonder if anything will be left of the passing game in 2017. This may be the start of a major rebuild for this team and they're not starting from a very good place.


nice write up Harry...we also lost a lot of good leadership on the defensive line
 

Mitch

Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
13,405
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Wrentham, MA
For more years than I'd like to count I've been analyzing the Cards. I've never been less sure in my observations. I honestly thought going into 2016 that this was a very strong team. Now I believe what I'm seeing is that the whole is not equal to the sum of its parts.

In college football momentum often rules the game and one player can take over a game. The more talented team is frequently upset. In the NFL coordination is often more critical. Rarely is it man-to-man abilities. It's much more how a team plays as a team. In this respect the 2016 Cards have failed thus far.

I know this is going to release the hornets, but I think the acquisition of Chandler Jones has hurt the Cardinals. He's more of a 4-3 DE than an OLB. In fact the Cards use him that way. That's how the Cards ended up with Minter covering a RB in pass coverage rather than an OLB. It's not that Jones has played badly, rather it's the Cards lack cover guys for those short routes so critical in third down situations. The Cards can't simply switch to a 4-3 as they lack LBs that could play that structure. They might have been better off getting a few solid LBs for the same money. They needed a better rush but they did decently with Freeney. They might also have been better off if they'd stuck with him.

Another major change that hasn't gone well was letting Rashad Johnson leave. He was the de facto captain of the secondary. As TM has returned things have not gone smoothly. First they played him deep and moved Jefferson up. Jefferson played well but TM was invisible. In the last game they moved TM up and Jefferson back but TM only had a positive impact on one play that I saw. On another play he covered the wrong receiver and that resulted in a huge completion. Jefferson on the other hand was unfamiliar in the Johnson roll overrunning another play that lead to a Rams' score. The secondary looked disjointed all night. The middle of the field was constantly open. Even though he gave up a few bad completions, Cooper was adequate and PP was fine though he made a mistake or two. Virtually all CBs do. Branch has been barely adequate, and he's a major drop off taking on many of TM's responsibilities. Of course TM's injury left little choice other than signing Branch, so mark that one unavoidable..

The biggest deficiency may be the loss of leadership that resulted from the Johnson departure. In 1999 Lomas Brown, Jamir Miller and Larry Centers were allowed to leave and a good Cards team literally fell apart. A team has to be careful not to undervalue leadership. It's never easy to see it will happen but in the case of Johnson I think the Cards lost leadership they're having trouble replacing.

The draft has been a topic of concern and if you check my posts at the time you will see some of these concerns. NK may yet be a player but for a team with Super Bowl aspirations, he was a bad choice. Pick two went for Jones. I would have made that deal too but it didn't help much. Then pick 3 was used on a player not ready to contribute. Boehm and Toner provide decent depth, but again offer no immediate assistance. So while some of these picks may have long term value, they won't likely impact 2016. Left unaided early spots included LB, TE, CB & OL. Finally the Cards again failed to secure a return man. Think about how you felt when the Cards last chance hinged on getting a good kick return. The Cards never had a chance. Returning kicks is an art, not just a routine function. The Cards undervalue it and field position constantly suffers.

So I'm not sure the Cards can recover this year. Can the pieces adjust their edges enough to fit into a solid configuration? Will the team remain fractured and struggle to mediocre results?

This team has too much talent to have a total disaster, but what impact will this have on Fitz's and Palmer's desire to play next season? With Floyd a near cinch to be gone also it's reasonable to wonder if anything will be left of the passing game in 2017. This may be the start of a major rebuild for this team and they're not starting from a very good place.

Harry---
* Good point about Jones being a liability as an OLB---but---I'd hate to see what the pass rush would be without him. It was great that the coaches finally started moving him around inside and out on the rush. That's his niche.
* But---this OLB/DE dilemma has been hurting the Cardinals for years---they just can't get it right, via the draft or free agency.
* It might be wise for the Cardinals switch to a modified 4-3 next season, not only to accommodate Chandler Jones, but to add some much needed speed to the LB corp. We have the slowest linebacker quartet of any of the 34 teams.
* As for Rashad Johnson---the problem with him is that, while a good communicator and nifty in coverage at times, he was a very poor tackler---and, even worse, he broke down physically the last two years and played arguably his worst two games as a Cardinal in both playoff games versus Carolina. He forced the Cardinals' hand---he really was awful when they needed him most.
* I think that it is way too early to evaluate this year's draft. What concerns me is how slow the Cardinals coaches are in developing the rookies---and how loath BA is to play rookies. Heck, he even had David Johnson as the #3 RB for the first half of last season. In pre-season Nkemdiche looked better and more athletic than any of the DEs/DTs, Brandon Williams showed upside (it was a mistake , imo, to have him try to play press coverage from the get-go---they should have let him play 5-7 yard cushion to get comfortable first, just as they did with Cooper in his first game, Evan Boehm and Cole Toner looked better and more consistent than Shipley and Watford---and they made an egregious mistake thinking they could squeeze Marqui Christian through waivers.
* To me it looks like the play calling on both side of the ball is way too predictable----and the players are not in good football shape and some of them are playing afraid to get hurt. All of this, imo, does not speak well of the Cardinals' coaching---the play-calling, the poor football shape and the allowing players to play scared.
 
OP
OP
Harry

Harry

ASFN Consultant and Senior Writer
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Posts
12,798
Reaction score
28,179
Location
Orlando, FL
I think you missed my point on the draft. I think when a team is in striking distance of a Super Bowl they should go all in. The Cards draft may prove to be fine for the future but for my money the future is now. Certainly the Pats have shown it's possible to compete every year but that is so rare in the NFL I wouldn't want to bank on the Cards managing to do it. I'd rather have taken the shot this year before Palmer and Fitz are history.
 

cardpa

Have a Nice Day!
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Posts
7,448
Reaction score
4,228
Location
Monroe NC
It seems BA doesn't trust rookies and has some type of fear of rookie mistakes, yet he is okay with a veteran who may not make nearly as many mistakes yet does not have the skill or physical traits to play the position well enough to be a consistent player. So my question becomes which is worse, a rookie who is more capable but will make rookie mistakes or a veteran who can be overwhelmed by opposing players yet not make nearly as many mistakes.
 

b8rtm8nn

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Jan 14, 2003
Posts
3,388
Reaction score
1,681
Location
Tucson
So my question becomes which is worse, a rookie who is more capable but will make rookie mistakes or a veteran who can be overwhelmed by opposing players yet not make nearly as many mistakes.

I think this depends on scheme and impact - he just mentioned today that NK could play but given Chip Kelly's offense, hitting the wrong gap could result in a 50 yard run. If this were the Rams - probably a different story.
 

eastcoastSUN

Hall of Famer
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Posts
1,042
Reaction score
641
Location
858 via 703
I think this depends on scheme and impact - he just mentioned today that NK could play but given Chip Kelly's offense, hitting the wrong gap could result in a 50 yard run. If this were the Rams - probably a different story.

Also depends on stage of season and mission criticality... If we rolled NK into the first game of the season (assuming he was perfectly healthy, which he was not) and he made a bunch of rookie mistakes, we could chalk it up as a learning lesson. However, with the season literally hanging in jeopardy, it wouldn't make sense to put him in on Thursday because one costly mistake could literally mean the end of the season for us.
 

oaken1

Stone Cold
Supporting Member
Banned from P+R
Joined
Mar 13, 2004
Posts
18,923
Reaction score
17,467
Location
Modesto, California
Also depends on stage of season and mission criticality... If we rolled NK into the first game of the season (assuming he was perfectly healthy, which he was not) and he made a bunch of rookie mistakes, we could chalk it up as a learning lesson. However, with the season literally hanging in jeopardy, it wouldn't make sense to put him in on Thursday because one costly mistake could literally mean the end of the season for us.

Talented players make impact plays in games that matter. adding that talent to our defensive front right now might be a good idea considering how they have looked..... tackles having to block down on NK cannot help double team Jones or Golden
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
39,122
Reaction score
31,594
Location
Gilbert, AZ
It seems BA doesn't trust rookies and has some type of fear of rookie mistakes, yet he is okay with a veteran who may not make nearly as many mistakes yet does not have the skill or physical traits to play the position well enough to be a consistent player. So my question becomes which is worse, a rookie who is more capable but will make rookie mistakes or a veteran who can be overwhelmed by opposing players yet not make nearly as many mistakes.

I just don't think that's true. If you're healthy and promising, you're probably going to play. Cooper didn't play as a rook because he got hurt, and then he didn't play because he was bad.

Tyrann Mathieu (3rd), Andre Ellington (6th), Deone Bucannon (1st), John Brown (3rd), Markus Golden (2nd), David Johnson (3rd), Rodney Gunter (4th), and Brandon Williams (3rd) were all given big roles or starting jobs very early in their rookie seasons.

The thought has been that this team was good enough that a rookie—even a talented one—wouldn't be good enough to beat out an experienced veteran.
 

cardpa

Have a Nice Day!
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Posts
7,448
Reaction score
4,228
Location
Monroe NC
I just don't think that's true. If you're healthy and promising, you're probably going to play. Cooper didn't play as a rook because he got hurt, and then he didn't play because he was bad.

Tyrann Mathieu (3rd), Andre Ellington (6th), Deone Bucannon (1st), John Brown (3rd), Markus Golden (2nd), David Johnson (3rd), Rodney Gunter (4th), and Brandon Williams (3rd) were all given big roles or starting jobs very early in their rookie seasons.

The thought has been that this team was good enough that a rookie—even a talented one—wouldn't be good enough to beat out an experienced veteran.

You are correct to some extent but not fully, D. Johnson and Ellington played bigger roles due to injuries and other personnel problems. Ellington because of the problems with Dwyer which left the team with outstanding RBs such as R. Hughes, Grice, and Taylor. Johnson because CJ got hurt and Ellington flopped. Golden only played about half the time and Gunter less than 40% of the time. Oakafor and Woodley were the starters last year at the beginning of the season. I give you Brown and Bucannon, however Floyd was stinking it up and had the hand injury at the beginning of last season so Brown played more than B. Golden, Ja. Brown, and Nelson. Mathieu and Bucannon didn't have any real competition especially Bucannon where Weatherspoon was suppose to fill that position but could never get right from injuries. Mathieu had to beat out Jefferson and Bethel neither of whom were near starting material at the time and Antoine Cason. I don't argue that these guys ended up playing significant roles but it wasn't because they were slated to start ahead of veterans.
 

Staff online

Forum statistics

Threads
560,927
Posts
5,475,459
Members
6,337
Latest member
61_Shasta
Top