What if Suns took Tyrese Haliburton?

[JCSunsfan]

One team that regrets not drafting Haliburton are the Knicks. Toppin has been a bust.

I really liked Toppin.

 

[Raindog]

It is interesting about Toppin. Almost everyone agreed before the draft that he was the "safest bet." Maybe not the highest ceiling of anyone, but seemed to be at least the most likely steady rookie contributor.

Like with anyone from this class, it's too early to say he will never get better, but he probably has the highest "bust" potential at the moment of any of the lottery picks given his age and development relative to the others.

 

[Hoop Head]

I really liked Toppin.

Same here. I thought he'd go #4 or #5 so never considered the Suns getting him but I think he'll turn it around when he gets away from Thibs. His defense was questionable anyways and playing for an old school defensive minded coach seemed.like a bad fit.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The point is he may not have gotten that very chance to prove himself on this team. The Kings are a pretty poor team without a whole lot of guard depth so Haliburton was able to get a lot of playing time right away. On this team with Paul starting and playing 32 or so minutes and with Monty being confident in Payne and his vet guards Haliburton may have seen next to no playing time.

Payne missed a bunch of games that would’ve given Hali opps. Also, monty would see him in practice. Talent exhibits itself. Monty would’ve eventually given him opps in games and his talent would’ve prevailed over Payne.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Same here. I thought he'd go #4 or #5 so never considered the Suns getting him but I think he'll turn it around when he gets away from Thibs. His defense was questionable anyways and playing for an old school defensive minded coach seemed.like a bad fit.

Coaching, fit, all that matters for rookies. I hate Thibs as a coach. He is an old fashioned screamer that makes watching a game in person almost unbearable.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

And you don’t think it’s possible that after the bubble the Suns thought that the difference between Payne and Halliburton was negligible? James Jones LOVES Cam Payne and at the time he was a signature signing.

And I don’t think we had Frank so our big rotation was Ayton and Dario with our SFs bringing up the rear. Jalen Smith has been disappointing but the Suns picking a high skill player at a position of huge need is easy to understand.

I don’t believe Jalen was ever considered “high skill.” He was largely referred to as a reach and project.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Lots of good content in here...not drafting Haliburton bc you have a 37 year old CP, or bc you're content with Carter/Payne is hilarious. Carter or Payne will never sniff starting on a contending team.

 

[Chaplin]

Lots of good content in here...not drafting Haliburton bc you have a 37 year old CP, or bc you're content with Carter/Payne is hilarious. Carter or Payne will never sniff starting on a contending team.

This isn't about what the fans think, it never has been. It's just about what the front office thinks, and what they were thinking at the time. I'm speculating that the front office was ok with Payne as the backup and didn't want to spend the extra money it would take to pay a rookie in a redundant position. The larger need was big man, and they went that route. Hindsight is 20/20 and they should have probably taken Halliburton. It's certainly possible that the front office thought Halliburton would never start for a contending team. And it looks like it will be years before that is even proven.

But it's not like Halliburton is some unique once-in-a-lifetime player. People are acting like the entire future of the PG position was dependent on whether we drafted Halliburton or not. And that's ridiculous. Good Point Guards aren't that hard to find as long as you aren't Ryan McDonough.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Interestingly enough. Cam Payne's and Haliburton's stats per 100 possessions are eerily similar, except Cam is a much better distributor and his ortg/drtg differential is much better.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/halibty01.html#all_per_poss
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/payneca01.html

If your window is now, I can certainly see why Monty might have preferred Cam over Tyrese. He had seen him play and had watched him for years in the league. Who knows how long or if Haliburton was going to develop?

Interesting discussion. Haliburton is a great player and definitely a better choice than Stix. But I think Cam is getting undervalued some.

 

[Chaplin]

Interestingly enough. Cam Payne's and Haliburton's stats per 100 possessions are eerily similar, except Cam is a much better distributor and his ortg/drtg differential is much better.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/halibty01.html#all_per_poss
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/payneca01.html

If your window is now, I can certainly see why Monty might have preferred Cam over Tyrese. He had seen him play and had watched him for years in the league. Who knows how long or if Haliburton was going to develop?

Interesting discussion. Haliburton is a great player and definitely a better choice than Stix. But I think Cam is getting undervalued some.

Good summary. This isn't about how BAD Halliburton is, it never has been. It's only been about trying to analyze why the team passed on him.

And I do see where the conversation could go after this -- Payne's ceiling vs. Halliburton's ceiling.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Good summary. This isn't about how BAD Halliburton is, it never has been. It's only been about trying to analyze why the team passed on him.

And I do see where the conversation could go after this -- Payne's ceiling vs. Halliburton's ceiling.

And we do not know what the ceiling for each is. Plenty of young players have come into the league and even won rookie of the year, only to disappear soon after. Not saying this will happen to Hali, but we just do not know. I have watched the NBA for 45 years now and I am have do not have much confidence predicting a young player's future any more.

I will say this. The Suns ought to consider trading their pick during the draft this year. JOnes seems to be much more effective in finding great contributors that are already in the league than he does in the draft. Of course, that makes sense. You can watch film of these young guys playing against real NBA talent. It's a lot more of a sure thing than watching film of a young guy like Bender play back up minutes in the Israeli league.

 

[Mainstreet]

The topic is "What if Suns took Tyrese Haliburton?"

I think the conversation has become sidetracked.

Would the Suns have been better off if the drafting Tyrese Haliburton instead Jalen Smith... I don't think there is any question about it. Haliburton is the better player.

That should be the comparison, drafting Haliburton versus Smith.

Cam Payne was signed to a two-year contract last season. The Suns would have carried three point guards regardless this season.

It would have been Paul, Payne and Haliburton with Jevon Carter as a defensive specialist or a fourth point guard. Then let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Chaplin]

The topic is "What if Suns took Tyrese Haliburton?"

I think the conversation has become sidetracked.

Would the Suns have been better off if the drafting Tyrese Haliburton instead Jalen Smith... I don't think there is any question about it. Haliburton is the better player.

That should be the comparison, drafting Haliburton versus Smith.

There is literally no comparison to be made. Smith is not as good as Haliburton. Period. End of discussion.

Cam Payne was signed to a two-year contract last season. The Suns would have carried three point guards regardless this season.

It would have been Paul, Payne and Haliburton with Jevon Carter as a defensive specialist or a fourth point guard. Then let the chips fall where they may.

If the Suns thought there was a chance that Smith could contribute, even a little bit, that was still the bigger need in the Fall of 2020.

What exactly are you arguing here? That the Suns should have taken Halliburton? Ok, sure, when talking BPA that's the right call, just like it's the right call for a lot of the teams that passed on him.

You seem to be arguing that Halliburton is a better player than Jalen Smith, which everyone here agrees with. If that's all you want to talk about, then we should just lock this thread and be done with it.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This isn't about what the fans think, it never has been. It's just about what the front office thinks, and what they were thinking at the time. I'm speculating that the front office was ok with Payne as the backup and didn't want to spend the extra money it would take to pay a rookie in a redundant position. The larger need was big man, and they went that route. Hindsight is 20/20 and they should have probably taken Halliburton. It's certainly possible that the front office thought Halliburton would never start for a contending team. And it looks like it will be years before that is even proven.

But it's not like Halliburton is some unique once-in-a-lifetime player. People are acting like the entire future of the PG position was dependent on whether we drafted Halliburton or not. And that's ridiculous. Good Point Guards aren't that hard to find as long as you aren't Ryan McDonough.

And there’s the hyperbole. No one ever came close to making the statement that you’re projecting, chap.

 

[Mainstreet]

There is literally no comparison to be made. Smith is not as good as Haliburton. Period. End of discussion.



If the Suns thought there was a chance that Smith could contribute, even a little bit, that was still the bigger need in the Fall of 2020.

What exactly are you arguing here? That the Suns should have taken Halliburton? Ok, sure, when talking BPA that's the right call, just like it's the right call for a lot of the teams that passed on him.

You seem to be arguing that Halliburton is a better player than Jalen Smith, which everyone here agrees with. If that's all you want to talk about, then we should just lock this thread and be done with it.

This is the gist of what Bill Simmons was saying. The Suns should have drafted Haliburton.

Again, a team should never draft for need. It should always be BPA unless the value is equal.

 

[Chaplin]

This is the gist of what Bill Simmons was saying. The Suns should have drafted Haliburton.

Again, a team should never draft for need. It should always be BPA unless the value is equal.

Ok, so if that's the simple philosophy, why didn't the Suns do what you think they (and every other team) should do? Isn't that the question? You keep saying you have GM-level knowledge that you should always draft BPA no matter what. How do you explain the teams that don't do that? And what makes you smarter than James Jones, Monty Williams and their staffs?

 

[GatorAZ]

The topic is "What if Suns took Tyrese Haliburton?"

I think the conversation has become sidetracked.

Would the Suns have been better off if the drafting Tyrese Haliburton instead Jalen Smith... I don't think there is any question about it. Haliburton is the better player.

That should be the comparison, drafting Haliburton versus Smith.

Cam Payne was signed to a two-year contract last season. The Suns would have carried three point guards regardless this season.

It would have been Paul, Payne and Haliburton with Jevon Carter as a defensive specialist or a fourth point guard. Then let the chips fall where they may.

That’s a great point. Payne shouldn’t have been a reason to avoid Halliburton because Payne is not a PGOTF and he doesn’t block Halliburton who can guard two’s. Your bench is Payne, Halliburton, Cam and Dario.

The Smith pick has more to do with bad scouting. Gambo said the Suns wanted Killian Hayes over Haliburton who looks lost just like Smith.

 

[Chaplin]

That’s a great point. Payne shouldn’t have been a reason to avoid Halliburton because Payne is not a PGOTF and he doesn’t block Halliburton who can guard two’s. Your bench is Payne, Halliburton, Cam and Dario.

The Smith pick has more to do with bad scouting. Gambo said the Suns wanted Killian Hayes over Haliburton who looks lost just like Smith.

Suns fanboys may have thought that Halliburton was a PGOTF candidate, doesn't mean the Suns did.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Suns fanboys may have thought that Halliburton was a PGOTF candidate, doesn't mean the Suns did.

yes. That is the crux of people’s criticism.

and we’re all fanboys leveling criticism during games and with moves. That’s one of the purposes of a message board. To voice agreement or disagreement with what you’re watching.

 

[Chaplin]

yes. That is the crux of people’s criticism.

and we’re all fanboys leveling criticism during games and with moves. That’s one of the purposes of a message board. To voice agreement or disagreement with what you’re watching.

You mean only if it fits the board's narrative right?

I have not once said that Halliburton is bad or that he's worse than Smith, or even that the Suns were right in passing on him. This entire conversation has been about WHY the Suns didn't take him I simply don't buy the "Suns are just stupid" excuse when message board warriors are dictating the philosophy of an NBA team, let alone just the Suns.

I agree, if taking BPA, take Halliburton. With the gap in skill level that seems to be apparent with Halliburton and Jalen Smith, that probably makes up for the need for a PF, so they probably should have taken Halliburton anyway. I've only been speculating about WHY they didn't.

And getting slammed for it.

 

[Mainstreet]

That’s a great point. Payne shouldn’t have been a reason to avoid Halliburton because Payne is not a PGOTF and he doesn’t block Halliburton who can guard two’s. Your bench is Payne, Halliburton, Cam and Dario.

The Smith pick has more to do with bad scouting. Gambo said the Suns wanted Killian Hayes over Haliburton who looks lost just like Smith.

Yes. Payne would have been on the roster regardless.

As much as I enjoy the draft, the Suns might be better off trading their picks for players until they improve their scouting.

 

[Chaplin]

Yes. Payne would have been on the roster regardless.

As much as I enjoy the draft, the Suns might be better off trading their picks for players until they improve their scouting.

Now THAT I think we can agree on.

Although the Cam Johnson pick looks pretty good, and even Ayton is still a good pick, even if there is one guy you'd pick ahead of him in hindsight.

 

[Finito]

Why does this keep getting brought up? Halliburton made it clear that he didn't want to go anywhere but to the Kings and as a team with a starting and backup PG at the time it made no sense for us to take him and potentially mess with team chemistry in the process.

exactly. Bro she ain’t interested in you move on

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

exactly. Bro she ain’t interested in you move on

If you have no interest in discussing a what if why even read a LITERAL what if thread, much less post in it? Criticism for criticisms sake?

 

[Finito]

Yeah we’ve all heard and discussed that. You still draft him. What’s he going to do refuse to sign? No way. And once the suns got rolling he’d have been stoked to be Paul’s heir apparent on a talented team.

he wanted to play uptempo that’s according to Windhorst that’s why he wanted to be in Sac.

listen is it the smartest thing to do, nope

but the kid wanted to be there