What most of the mad people are really mad about? Vent here!

[Phrazbit]

With these moves, it does seem like this is all James Jones and his team and not Sarver so much, or am I mistaken about that?

The only thing we've done that seems definitively against the grain of Sarver is hiring Monty Williams and giving him a 5 year deal.

We know McD loved high upside teenagers and loading up on draft picks, he was the exception to the rule since Sarver took over (granted, it didn't work out so well).

We've loaded up on role players, we avoided gigantic contracts and we dumped a lot of draft assets to pick up more defined, less risky, less reward talent. Those types of moves are pretty consistent with pretty much every regime we've had besides McD (including when Sarver was defacto GM).

But, maybe it will work this time. Previously we didn't have experienced coaching staffs and (most importantly) we haven't had young, star potential talent on the roster in about 15 years.

Moral of the story, I don't know James' style well enough to say that these moves are all from his personal styling, but there certainly isn't anything that makes me rule out Sarver as a heavy meddler still.

 

[slinslin]

The problem is the lack of foresight!!

At the trade deadline James Jones probably could have traded both straight up for expiring contracts and be done with it. All that while improving our lottery position so that we could have fallen no further than 5th instead of 7th.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

The problem is the lack of foresight!!

At the trade deadline James Jones probably could have traded both straight up for expiring contracts and be done with it. All that while improving our lottery position so that we could have fallen no further than 5th instead of 7th.

I'm not sure he was planning on dumping Jackson prior to his antics this off season. As for TJ yeah his value dropped, but at the deadline when he had more value did they realize TJ was going to miss the rest of the season and have his value drop any more? Sure they could have made moves for those guys back then, but it wasn't exactly obvious that these things would happen that plummeted their value either.

 

[az jam]

It's Jones team for sure. The lineup does look better than last year but we will just have to see how they play as a team. I'm not upset as the team the last few years was unwatchable.

 

[SirStefan32]

I am honestly not mad about anything the Suns have done. The only thing I am not thrilled about is prioritizing shooting over defense. I understand you need to have both, but I do wish they got more defenders. I would have preferred Noah Vonleh over Frank Kaminky, for example. I understand they got Rubio, who is a good defender, I understand they got Baynes who is a good defender, albeit a different defender than Holmes, so it's not like they didn't add any defenders, but I am really cautious about putting any poor defenders around Booker and Ayton. Saric is scrappy and a lot tougher than people think, but he is still an average defender at best. Frank can't guard a chair. Two rookies are too slow to be good defenders, even though Jerome was pretty good in college.

I am fine with shipping out crap (Warren, Jackson, etc) and giving some second-round picks to do it. I am fine with trading down and then "reaching" at 11, I don't really care about any of that. Draft was a crap shoot this year, second-round picks rarely work.

They have nine actual NBA players now, along with two older rookies. They have an actual NBA point guard, along with a decent combo guard, and an older rookie point guard. They have an actual PF rotation, logjam at 3 has been mostly cleared, terrible players are gone. They also have some expiring contracts that may be useful at the deadline or give them some cap space next summer. All things considered I am happy. Suns should be an actual NBA team next year instead of a joke G-League team. One step at a time.

 

[az jam]

I am honestly not mad about anything the Suns have done. The only thing I am not thrilled about is prioritizing shooting over defense. I understand you need to have both, but I do wish they got more defenders. I would have preferred Noah Vonleh over Frank Kaminky, for example. I understand they got Rubio, who is a good defender, I understand they got Baynes who is a good defender, albeit a different defender than Holmes, so it's not like they didn't add any defenders, but I am really cautious about putting any poor defenders around Booker and Ayton. Saric is scrappy and a lot tougher than people think, but he is still an average defender at best. Frank can't guard a chair. Two rookies are too slow to be good defenders, even though Jerome was pretty good in college.

I am fine with shipping out crap (Warren, Jackson, etc) and giving some second-round picks to do it. I am fine with trading down and then "reaching" at 11, I don't really care about any of that. Draft was a crap shoot this year, second-round picks rarely work.

They have nine actual NBA players now, along with two older rookies. They have an actual NBA point guard, along with a decent combo guard, and an older rookie point guard. They have an actual PF rotation, logjam at 3 has been mostly cleared, terrible players are gone. They also have some expiring contracts that may be useful at the deadline or give them some cap space next summer. All things considered I am happy. Suns should be an actual NBA team next year instead of a joke G-League team. One step at a time.

Good stuff, totally agree with you. It is one step at a time and IMO they are going the right direction to build a winner.

 

[1tinsoldier]

i check in once a week but get turned off as soon as i see the usual homers defying reason -- as well as every sports analyst i've read who rank the Suns' among the worst losers this summer based on how poorly Jones negotiated, maneuvered, and managed assets, trades, picks and contracts.

it's ironically sad that Sarver finally gave the free hand to a GM, but it's an incompetent. now we have both an owner and GM with the worst reputations in the league. Free agents won't want to come here and i finally agree that Booker will probably want out soon

also probably why Oubre is hesitant to sign

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

Meh, who cares what "analysts" say. I am excited to see the team play - I guess I am a "usual homer".

 

[Mainstreet]

i check in once a week but get turned off as soon as i see the usual homers defying reason -- as well as every sports analyst i've read who rank the Suns' among the worst losers this summer based on how poorly Jones negotiated, maneuvered, and managed assets, trades, picks and contracts.

it's ironically sad that Sarver finally gave the free hand to a GM, but it's an incompetent. now we have both an owner and GM with the worst reputations in the league. Free agents won't want to come here and i finally agree that Booker will probably want out soon

also probably why Oubre is hesitant to sign

Kicking the Suns is a favorite past time by many analysts because it is easy and they don't need to know much about what is going on with the team.

The Suns have fixed their biggest problem which was point guard and added stable players in key positions.

However, to move a step further, they need to add another key free agent besides adding Rubio.

Their grade is pending with the Oubre situation but I think they have minimally earned a C grade at this point in time. I think they earn an A if they get Oubre signed to a multi-year contract.

 

[1tinsoldier]

the Suns lost both good & bad players and we'll never know how some may have improved under Williams.
and the new players can't be evaluated yet

but Jones can be graded today on how well he
"negotiated, maneuvered, and managed assets, trades, picks and contracts"

F (worst off-season execution i've seen in 40 years of following the NBA)

 

[95pro]

the Suns lost both good & bad players and we'll never know how some may have improved under Williams.
and the new players can't be evaluated yet

but Jones can be graded today on how well he
"negotiated, maneuvered, and managed assets, trades, picks and contracts"

F (worst off-season execution i've seen in 40 years of following the NBA)

so last year and the year before were better huh

 

[Phrazbit]

The 2010 and 2012 off-seasons were soul crushing. I hated the value exchange in the Warren trade but it didn’t leave me literally nauseated.

 

[Raze]

Kicking the Suns is a favorite past time by many analysts because it is easy and they don't need to know much about what is going on with the team.

The Suns have fixed their biggest problem which was point guard and added stable players in key positions.

However, to move a step further, they need to add another key free agent besides adding Rubio.

Their grade is pending with the Oubre situation but I think they have minimally earned a C grade at this point in time. I think they earn an A if they get Oubre signed to a multi-year contract.

I hate to disagree with you Mainstreet. I really do. But Kellan Olson is right. This is possibly one of the worst asset management displays I've ever seen.

Seeing the value of a player is pretty much my main focus when it comes to sports. I'm not an X's and O's guy. Actually, I'm terrible at X's and O's and hate doing it. That said, I love scouting and exploring the value of players and prospects. I have way to much fun watching film looking for patterns and evaluating skill sets. I've been doing it since Shaq was a rookie. I have no idea how good I am at it. But I love doing it.

So purely from an asset management position and in my honest opinion:

• JJ did not get the full value for TJ. In fact, he willingly got robbed. And now everyone knows it. Which leads to:
• JJ did not get the full value for #32. It should NEVER have been added to the TJ trade.
• JJ did not get the full value for #6. He added a PF who is a terrible fit at D. Decent at O, but THAT good!?! Absolutely not.
• JJ DID NOT get the full value from #11. Cam isn't SO good that you wouldn't trade back and hope he lands there. If you get jumped, you settle for Clarke or Kabengele or Jerome. And on top of that we ditched 2 SFs so we can add ANOTHER SF? Mind numbingly bad.
• JJ did not get the full value for Melton. Melton was an excellent defending PG prospect. I really like Carter, but he IS NOT better than Melton. And to add two 2nds and JJ? So he didn't get value for Melton or the 2020 2nd or the 20201 Conditional 2nd. Which goes along with...
• JJ did not get the full value for Josh. Ouchi clarifies this above. My addition would be: if you're stock value has plummeted zero value, you don't PAY someone to take it off your hands. You just hang on to it and hope it gains enough in the future to become valuable again. If he doesn't than you let him walk like Bender. I know he had #7M attached to him, but so what. EVERY team has had a guy like that. They don't make these desperate trades. There is absolutely NO precedent for these kind of trades. JJ is either proving he's in over his head, or he's a trend setter. I'm not banking on the latter.
• JJ slightly didn't get full value for the #24 pick. This is fully subjective as I would rather have had Kabengele or Bruno. Jerome is a winner, but really slow. I'm not excited about him.
  
• JJ did get full value on signing Rubio. It's a good signing at a reasonable price. Should be a better $ for $ signing than Rozier or Russell. I think Rubio is a great fit next to Book and Ayton.
• JJ did get full value on trading the Milwaukee pick. #24 is probably better than what we'd get when it yields. Baynes is a decent throw in with one year left. Actually I think he got bonus value for this trade even though Baynes' $4M was a weird addition after JJ had just cleared cap space.

That's 9 assets that he failed getting value for and 2 successes (if you count Rubio as gaining an asset. Resigning Oubre at market value adds another). I might have missed something since there's been so many moves, but I can't seriously see how JJ would get anything better than an F this off season.

Yes, analysts are tearing us apart, but I truly believe it's deserved.

 

[Chaplin]

I hate to disagree with you Mainstreet. I really do. But Kellan Olson is right. This is possibly one of the worst asset management displays I've ever seen.

Seeing the value of a player is pretty much my main focus when it comes to sports. I'm not an X's and O's guy. Actually, I'm terrible at X's and O's and hate doing it. That said, I love scouting and exploring the value of players and prospects. I have way to much fun watching film looking for patterns and evaluating skill sets. I've been doing it since Shaq was a rookie. I have no idea how good I am at it. But I love doing it.

So purely from an asset management position and in my honest opinion:

• JJ did not get the full value for TJ. In fact, he willingly got robbed. And now everyone knows it. Which leads to:
• JJ did not get the full value for #32. It should NEVER have been added to the TJ trade.
• JJ did not get the full value for #6. He added a PF who is a terrible fit at D. Decent at O, but THAT good!?! Absolutely not.
• JJ DID NOT get the full value from #11. Cam isn't SO good that you wouldn't trade back and hope he lands there. If you get jumped, you settle for Clarke or Kabengele or Jerome. And on top of that we ditched 2 SFs so we can add ANOTHER SF? Mind numbingly bad.
• JJ did not get the full value for Melton. Melton was an excellent defending PG prospect. I really like Carter, but he IS NOT better than Melton. And to add two 2nds and JJ? So he didn't get value for Melton or the 2020 2nd or the 20201 Conditional 2nd. Which goes along with...
• JJ did not get the full value for Josh. Ouchi clarifies this above. My addition would be: if you're stock value has plummeted zero value, you don't PAY someone to take it off your hands. You just hang on to it and hope it gains enough in the future to become valuable again. If he doesn't than you let him walk like Bender. I know he had #7M attached to him, but so what. EVERY team has had a guy like that. They don't make these desperate trades. There is absolutely NO precedent for these kind of trades. JJ is either proving he's in over his head, or he's a trend setter. I'm not banking on the latter.
• JJ slightly didn't get full value for the #24 pick. This is fully subjective as I would rather have had Kabengele or Bruno. Jerome is a winner, but really slow. I'm not excited about him.
  
• JJ did get full value on signing Rubio. It's a good signing at a reasonable price. Should be a better $ for $ signing than Rozier or Russell. I think Rubio is a great fit next to Book and Ayton.
• JJ did get full value on trading the Milwaukee pick. #24 is probably better than what we'd get when it yields. Baynes is a decent throw in with one year left. Actually I think he got bonus value for this trade even though Baynes' $4M was a weird addition after JJ had just cleared cap space.

That's 9 assets that he failed getting value for and 2 successes (if you count Rubio as gaining an asset. Resigning Oubre at market value adds another). I might have missed something since there's been so many moves, but I can't seriously see how JJ would get anything better than an F this off season.

Yes, analysts are tearing us apart, but I truly believe it's deserved.

Pretty much disagree with 90% of your failures above. The 10% is probably agreement on TJ Warren. But other than that, IMO you are really overvaluing the draft picks, especially #6 and #32.

• JJ did not get the full value for TJ. In fact, he willingly got robbed. And now everyone knows it. -- OK, not much to argue there.
• JJ did not get the full value for #32. It should NEVER have been added to the TJ trade. -- While I don't think it should have been added, I also don't think it's as great an asset as you appear to think it is.
• JJ did not get the full value for #6. He added a PF who is a terrible fit at D. Decent at O, but THAT good!?! Absolutely not. -- Good as opposed to what? Who we would get at #6? Guaranteed right now, today, that Dario Saric is better than ANY player we could have gotten at #6.
• JJ DID NOT get the full value from #11. Cam isn't SO good that you wouldn't trade back and hope he lands there. If you get jumped, you settle for Clarke or Kabengele or Jerome. And on top of that we ditched 2 SFs so we can add ANOTHER SF? Mind numbingly bad. -- Again, massive hyperbole. I would have been happy with Clarke, but I'm not too broken up about Cam. Best shooter in the draft and a more mature player. Ok, I get what he's trying to do. The difference here is that nobody he could have gotten at that spot would have been much better than what Cam projects as. Hell, Clarke didn't go until #21! So, "mind-numbingly bad" by James Jones? Not so much.
• JJ did not get the full value for Melton. Melton was an excellent defending PG prospect. I really like Carter, but he IS NOT better than Melton. And to add two 2nds and JJ? So he didn't get value for Melton or the 2020 2nd or the 20201 Conditional 2nd. Which goes along with... -- Carter may not be better than Melton, but he's not much worse either. You are overvaluing Melton who was one of the most overrated players this offseason. The guy could defend, but couldn't do anything else. Basically the same as Carter. But we needed to move him to get rid of Josh Jackson.
• JJ did not get the full value for Josh. Ouchi clarifies this above. My addition would be: if you're stock value has plummeted zero value, you don't PAY someone to take it off your hands. You just hang on to it and hope it gains enough in the future to become valuable again. If he doesn't than you let him walk like Bender. I know he had #7M attached to him, but so what. EVERY team has had a guy like that. They don't make these desperate trades. There is absolutely NO precedent for these kind of trades. JJ is either proving he's in over his head, or he's a trend setter. I'm not banking on the latter. -- Now this one I disagree with the most. Josh Jackson was a negative asset this summer. We can't run the same circle over and over and over and over, simply because you think he MIGHT be better. We've ran that race, and we've lost everytime. I have no issue with getting rid of JJ the way we did. Keep in mind, that JJ and TJ Warren taken together equals the salary we gave to Ricky Rubio, who I think is vastly more important to this team than TJ and JJ would EVER be.
• JJ slightly didn't get full value for the #24 pick. This is fully subjective as I would rather have had Kabengele or Bruno. Jerome is a winner, but really slow. I'm not excited about him. -- I think sleeping on Jerome is a mistake. I like the pick a lot.

 

[1tinsoldier]

so last year and the year before were better huh

yes! at this time last off-season their executions were widely perceived as sound

...This is possibly one of the worst asset management displays I've ever seen...Yes, analysts are tearing us apart, but I truly believe it's deserved.

thanks Raze, for getting ahead of the home-spun history revisionists. i'm trying not to waste words here anymore

the only thing i might criticize more than you is the Rubio contract. yesterday, i read a ranking of that as one of the worst new contract over-pays

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

Adding personal attacks because other fans aren't as upset as you are devalues your argument, imo.

*Edited because what I said originally wasn't what I wanted to say. I apologize.

 

[Mainstreet]

I hate to disagree with you Mainstreet. I really do. But Kellan Olson is right. This is possibly one of the worst asset management displays I've ever seen.

Seeing the value of a player is pretty much my main focus when it comes to sports. I'm not an X's and O's guy. Actually, I'm terrible at X's and O's and hate doing it. That said, I love scouting and exploring the value of players and prospects. I have way to much fun watching film looking for patterns and evaluating skill sets. I've been doing it since Shaq was a rookie. I have no idea how good I am at it. But I love doing it.

So purely from an asset management position and in my honest opinion:

• JJ did not get the full value for TJ. In fact, he willingly got robbed. And now everyone knows it. Which leads to:
• JJ did not get the full value for #32. It should NEVER have been added to the TJ trade.
• JJ did not get the full value for #6. He added a PF who is a terrible fit at D. Decent at O, but THAT good!?! Absolutely not.
• JJ DID NOT get the full value from #11. Cam isn't SO good that you wouldn't trade back and hope he lands there. If you get jumped, you settle for Clarke or Kabengele or Jerome. And on top of that we ditched 2 SFs so we can add ANOTHER SF? Mind numbingly bad.
• JJ did not get the full value for Melton. Melton was an excellent defending PG prospect. I really like Carter, but he IS NOT better than Melton. And to add two 2nds and JJ? So he didn't get value for Melton or the 2020 2nd or the 20201 Conditional 2nd. Which goes along with...
• JJ did not get the full value for Josh. Ouchi clarifies this above. My addition would be: if you're stock value has plummeted zero value, you don't PAY someone to take it off your hands. You just hang on to it and hope it gains enough in the future to become valuable again. If he doesn't than you let him walk like Bender. I know he had #7M attached to him, but so what. EVERY team has had a guy like that. They don't make these desperate trades. There is absolutely NO precedent for these kind of trades. JJ is either proving he's in over his head, or he's a trend setter. I'm not banking on the latter.
• JJ slightly didn't get full value for the #24 pick. This is fully subjective as I would rather have had Kabengele or Bruno. Jerome is a winner, but really slow. I'm not excited about him.
  
• JJ did get full value on signing Rubio. It's a good signing at a reasonable price. Should be a better $ for $ signing than Rozier or Russell. I think Rubio is a great fit next to Book and Ayton.
• JJ did get full value on trading the Milwaukee pick. #24 is probably better than what we'd get when it yields. Baynes is a decent throw in with one year left. Actually I think he got bonus value for this trade even though Baynes' $4M was a weird addition after JJ had just cleared cap space.

That's 9 assets that he failed getting value for and 2 successes (if you count Rubio as gaining an asset. Resigning Oubre at market value adds another). I might have missed something since there's been so many moves, but I can't seriously see how JJ would get anything better than an F this off season.

Yes, analysts are tearing us apart, but I truly believe it's deserved.

I enjoy this!

You make some great points but the Suns do not operate in a vacuum. The market settles the value of players. If Warren and Jackson had positive value, 29 other teams would have been lining up to get them with assets in hand.

Melton's value was determined by the market as well.

In regard to draft picks, I had other players rated higher than Cam Johnson but this doesn't mean we are right. I did like the trade that netted the Suns Ty Jerome. This is about where I had him projected.

In regard to looking at players as stock, it's not the best comparison. The Suns liquefied assets to make another purchase such as Rubio. Otherwise it couldn't happen. It's about relative value.

Now if the Suns lose Oubre because they do not want to pay him what he is worth, I will be upset as well.

 

[Chaplin]

Trying to figure out why Ty Jerome has been getting some negativity.



This is from the last time he played competitive basketball. He's in control, not just of himself but of the team and hits some unbelievable 3-point shots.

And I certainly don't see an athletic albatross here. He looks plenty athletic for his position. We don't need the most athletic player in the world.

 

[1Sun]

Trying to figure out why Ty Jerome has been getting some negativity.



This is from the last time he played competitive basketball. He's in control, not just of himself but of the team and hits some unbelievable 3-point shots.

And I certainly don't see an athletic albatross here. He looks plenty athletic for his position. We don't need the most athletic player in the world.

To answer your question:

https://www.nbadraft.net/2019-nba-draft-combine-athleticism-testing

His jump numbers are pretty much the lowest at the combine, and his speed numbers are more comparable to power forwards and centers than to point guards.

 

[JCSunsfan]

the Suns lost both good & bad players and we'll never know how some may have improved under Williams.
and the new players can't be evaluated yet

but Jones can be graded today on how well he
"negotiated, maneuvered, and managed assets, trades, picks and contracts"

F (worst off-season execution i've seen in 40 years of following the NBA)

Not even close. Not even the worst Suns off-season. Even last off-season was worse.

 

[1tinsoldier]

odd. this time last year i don't recall anyone saying it was a bad off-season
Ayton, Bridges, Okobo, Crawford, got rid of Chriss and Knight... even the Ariza signing was mostly applauded by analysts and fans

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I hate to disagree with you Mainstreet. I really do. But Kellan Olson is right. This is possibly one of the worst asset management displays I've ever seen.

Seeing the value of a player is pretty much my main focus when it comes to sports. I'm not an X's and O's guy. Actually, I'm terrible at X's and O's and hate doing it. That said, I love scouting and exploring the value of players and prospects. I have way to much fun watching film looking for patterns and evaluating skill sets. I've been doing it since Shaq was a rookie. I have no idea how good I am at it. But I love doing it.

So purely from an asset management position and in my honest opinion:

• JJ did not get the full value for TJ. In fact, he willingly got robbed. And now everyone knows it. Which leads to:
• JJ did not get the full value for #32. It should NEVER have been added to the TJ trade.
• JJ did not get the full value for #6. He added a PF who is a terrible fit at D. Decent at O, but THAT good!?! Absolutely not.
• JJ DID NOT get the full value from #11. Cam isn't SO good that you wouldn't trade back and hope he lands there. If you get jumped, you settle for Clarke or Kabengele or Jerome. And on top of that we ditched 2 SFs so we can add ANOTHER SF? Mind numbingly bad.
• JJ did not get the full value for Melton. Melton was an excellent defending PG prospect. I really like Carter, but he IS NOT better than Melton. And to add two 2nds and JJ? So he didn't get value for Melton or the 2020 2nd or the 20201 Conditional 2nd. Which goes along with...
• JJ did not get the full value for Josh. Ouchi clarifies this above. My addition would be: if you're stock value has plummeted zero value, you don't PAY someone to take it off your hands. You just hang on to it and hope it gains enough in the future to become valuable again. If he doesn't than you let him walk like Bender. I know he had #7M attached to him, but so what. EVERY team has had a guy like that. They don't make these desperate trades. There is absolutely NO precedent for these kind of trades. JJ is either proving he's in over his head, or he's a trend setter. I'm not banking on the latter.
• JJ slightly didn't get full value for the #24 pick. This is fully subjective as I would rather have had Kabengele or Bruno. Jerome is a winner, but really slow. I'm not excited about him.
  
• JJ did get full value on signing Rubio. It's a good signing at a reasonable price. Should be a better $ for $ signing than Rozier or Russell. I think Rubio is a great fit next to Book and Ayton.
• JJ did get full value on trading the Milwaukee pick. #24 is probably better than what we'd get when it yields. Baynes is a decent throw in with one year left. Actually I think he got bonus value for this trade even though Baynes' $4M was a weird addition after JJ had just cleared cap space.

That's 9 assets that he failed getting value for and 2 successes (if you count Rubio as gaining an asset. Resigning Oubre at market value adds another). I might have missed something since there's been so many moves, but I can't seriously see how JJ would get anything better than an F this off season.

Yes, analysts are tearing us apart, but I truly believe it's deserved.

I large agree with most of this. On an individual basis. I might disagree with magnitude you’ve assigned to some of the elements, but you’ve captured my perspective looking at assets as business assets.

Where I might depart from your analysis is when I take 10 giant steps back and view everything in the aggregate. We went from no real pg to an absolutely viable starting pg. we went from no pf to an absolutely viable starting pf (we can argue fit, but saric absolutely fits a gaping chasm we had previously). We were a dreadful 3 pt shooting team and we’ve taken quite a few steps to eject poor shooters largely replacing them with at least adequate to projected good shooters.

So while on an asset-by-asset basis I think jones has done a poor job of maximizing value, I absolutely see what the plan was in terms of team construction. There’s inherent value to that. Does it outweigh the lost value on individual assets? I guess we’ll see . . .

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I enjoy this!

You make some great points but the Suns do not operate in a vacuum. The market settles the value of players. If Warren and Jackson had positive value, 29 other teams would have been lining up to get them with assets in hand.

Melton's value was determined by the market as well.

In regard to draft picks, I had other players rated higher than Cam Johnson but this doesn't mean we are right. I did like the trade that netted the Suns Ty Jerome. This is about where I had him projected.

In regard to looking at players as stock, it's not the best comparison. The Suns liquefied assets to make another purchase such as Rubio. Otherwise it couldn't happen. It's about relative value.

Now if the Suns lose Oubre because they do not want to pay him what he is worth, I will be upset as well.

Uh I think it’s been somewhat established that jones cooked the value of TJ by leading with an offer of 32 when Indiana wasn’t expecting such. That wasn’t the market setting the value.

And really my quibble with JJ and TJ isn’t that jones didn’t get value at the time, but rather that he rode the assets to their lowest value and then sold low.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Pretty much disagree with 90% of your failures above. The 10% is probably agreement on TJ Warren. But other than that, IMO you are really overvaluing the draft picks, especially #6 and #32.

• JJ did not get the full value for TJ. In fact, he willingly got robbed. And now everyone knows it. -- OK, not much to argue there.
• JJ did not get the full value for #32. It should NEVER have been added to the TJ trade. -- While I don't think it should have been added, I also don't think it's as great an asset as you appear to think it is.
• JJ did not get the full value for #6. He added a PF who is a terrible fit at D. Decent at O, but THAT good!?! Absolutely not. -- Good as opposed to what? Who we would get at #6? Guaranteed right now, today, that Dario Saric is better than ANY player we could have gotten at #6.
• JJ DID NOT get the full value from #11. Cam isn't SO good that you wouldn't trade back and hope he lands there. If you get jumped, you settle for Clarke or Kabengele or Jerome. And on top of that we ditched 2 SFs so we can add ANOTHER SF? Mind numbingly bad. -- Again, massive hyperbole. I would have been happy with Clarke, but I'm not too broken up about Cam. Best shooter in the draft and a more mature player. Ok, I get what he's trying to do. The difference here is that nobody he could have gotten at that spot would have been much better than what Cam projects as. Hell, Clarke didn't go until #21! So, "mind-numbingly bad" by James Jones? Not so much.
• JJ did not get the full value for Melton. Melton was an excellent defending PG prospect. I really like Carter, but he IS NOT better than Melton. And to add two 2nds and JJ? So he didn't get value for Melton or the 2020 2nd or the 20201 Conditional 2nd. Which goes along with... -- Carter may not be better than Melton, but he's not much worse either. You are overvaluing Melton who was one of the most overrated players this offseason. The guy could defend, but couldn't do anything else. Basically the same as Carter. But we needed to move him to get rid of Josh Jackson.
• JJ did not get the full value for Josh. Ouchi clarifies this above. My addition would be: if you're stock value has plummeted zero value, you don't PAY someone to take it off your hands. You just hang on to it and hope it gains enough in the future to become valuable again. If he doesn't than you let him walk like Bender. I know he had #7M attached to him, but so what. EVERY team has had a guy like that. They don't make these desperate trades. There is absolutely NO precedent for these kind of trades. JJ is either proving he's in over his head, or he's a trend setter. I'm not banking on the latter. -- Now this one I disagree with the most. Josh Jackson was a negative asset this summer. We can't run the same circle over and over and over and over, simply because you think he MIGHT be better. We've ran that race, and we've lost everytime. I have no issue with getting rid of JJ the way we did. Keep in mind, that JJ and TJ Warren taken together equals the salary we gave to Ricky Rubio, who I think is vastly more important to this team than TJ and JJ would EVER be.
• JJ slightly didn't get full value for the #24 pick. This is fully subjective as I would rather have had Kabengele or Bruno. Jerome is a winner, but really slow. I'm not excited about him. -- I think sleeping on Jerome is a mistake. I like the pick a lot.

I will number these so it is a bit easier to follow.

1. Agree with you both. We should have gotten more for TJ.
2. Not really a separate point.
3. Chap. Love having Saric. Would have chosen him for any player we would have gotten at #6. He only has one year left, but he is a RFA so we can keep him if we want to.
4. TBD. Any of us arguing whether Cam was worth the #11 is pointless right now. Time will tell. He is the guy they wanted and they got him. Trying to trade back further is just playing with fire if he is the guy they wanted.
5. Melton vs Carter. Really!? Are we arguing about this? These are both guys who are barely hanging onto NBA jobs. I think Carter is better, but it is really inconsequential.
6. No way. They had to move his salary to sign Rubio. That is not hard to understand. JJ needed to be out of this locker room. Let's see. His numbers were horrible. The Suns would have more wins over last year just by not playing him. In a historic run of bad basketball play, he blamed his teammates claiming "I do not know how to play bad basketball." Runs from police hand-cuffed. Knocking up old ladies in his off-time. Accused of getting a little baby high. Clearly admitted to be a big-time pot user in trying to excuse himself. Missed public relations commitments. Some of these things might get overlooked for a really good player, but he is not a good player. At some point you have to ask yourself whether you want this guy representing your team. Like I said before, this guy is headed for jail unless he makes big changes as a person. When you are trying to change team culture, this is the kind of guy you have to dump. No one was going to take him without something attached. I am shocked we moved him so cheaply.
7. I loved Kabengele and would have loved to get him with the #24 pick, but I do not see how that makes Jerome a mistake. Jerome is being touted as one of the better picks of the draft. That is just a difference of opinion there.

 

[Mainstreet]

odd. this time last year i don't recall anyone saying it was a bad off-season
Ayton, Bridges, Okobo, Crawford, got rid of Chriss and Knight... even the Ariza signing was mostly applauded by analysts and fans

This might be reason enough to hope this off season produces better results.

At least the Suns addressed the point guard position and added some NBA players.