What most of the mad people are really mad about? Vent here!

[Raze]

I enjoy this!

You make some great points but the Suns do not operate in a vacuum. The market settles the value of players. If Warren and Jackson had positive value, 29 other teams would have been lining up to get them with assets in hand.

Melton's value was determined by the market as well.

In regard to draft picks, I had other players rated higher than Cam Johnson but this doesn't mean we are right. I did like the trade that netted the Suns Ty Jerome. This is about where I had him projected.

In regard to looking at players as stock, it's not the best comparison. The Suns liquefied assets to make another purchase such as Rubio. Otherwise it couldn't happen. It's about relative value.

Now if the Suns lose Oubre because they do not want to pay him what he is worth, I will be upset as well.

That's the impossible part of all this, we don't know the true max value a player has. So we aren't sure what the "true market value" was for guys like TJ and JJ. We're all just guessing (for those that are for or against the moves).

Obviously if you could read the minds of 29 GMs you could ascertain the max value of an asset. Since that's impossible we have to take educated guesses. And since most GMs aren't going to be honest about it we have to rely on opinions by guys that get paid to evaluate this stuff on TV/Podcasts/Websites (plus, of course, our own evaluations).

And that's the cruddy part. Most of the "experts" outside of the 30 GMs are panning most of these moves (except for the Saric move. I'm one of the few that didn't love the trade as I value defense more than offense.) So I'm not going out on a limb here about our asset management. Actually this whole thread is based on the opinions of one of these guys who I happen to agree with.

I totally get the liquefying assets thing to get Rubio. But it wasn't the only way to do it. Johnson was one of a couple of options. That's why guys like Olson are frustrated.

My frustration is currently isolated to the asset management of all this, not to our current situation. Our team is not all that bad. We did just add the best true PG on the market.

 

[Phrazbit]

Again, given how this offseason was handled and is being handled, how could anyone possibly say that the Suns did "exactly as I like"???

I have maintained from day one that while I like Jerome overall as a prospect, he has way too many question marks regarding how his game will translate to the NBA to be projected as a potential starter and therefore was not worth the haul the Suns paid to get the pick to draft him.

Here is what the Suns have netted from this offseason:

A legitimate, albeit below average, starting point guard.
Two back-up power forwards, one average one for a single year and one below average one for two years.
Two back-up point guards.
A back-up wing shooting specialist.
A below average back-up center for a single year.

Here is what the Suns have given up this offseason:

A legitimate starting small forward.
A back-up point guard.
An above average back-up center.
A below average back-up power forward.
A head case wing who still has all-star potential talent.
An average back-up shooting guard.
A future first round pick (from Milwaukee).
A 2019 high second round pick.
A 2021 second round pick.
A 2022 conditional second round pick.
All of their cap space.
All of their trade assets.

Meanwhile, here were the Suns needs heading into this offseason (with + meaning the need has been filled, ? meaning the need remains and - meaning that the need is now even greater):

Starting Point Guard +
Back-Up Power Forward +
Character/Leadership in the Locker Room +
Passing +
Shooting +
Starting Power Forward ?
Rebounding -
Rim Protection/Shot Blocking/Interior Defense (Whatever you want to call it) -
Athletic Talent -
Scoring -
Defense -

Remove a re-signed Oubre from the equation, and I don't see how that could be anything but an F, given that the Suns acquired relative to what they gave up this offseason, and given the number of needs that went unaddressed or exacerbated despite what the Suns gave up this offseason. And that's without factoring in how clumsily Jones handled the vast majority of his transactions, how he miscalculated the Suns' cap room and ended up making a desperation trade as a result, how poorly the Oubre negotiations will have been handled if this happens, and the fact that Jones was actually targeting the likes of Terry Rozier and Cory Joseph before he lucked into Rubio.

Now, IF Oubre re-signs, then we don't add a second starting wing among what the Suns have given up, and Athletic Talent, Rebounding and Scoring go from "-" to "?", which in my opinion results in a "C" offseason.

Didn't bother to read this.

I was responding to you crapping on Jarome... a pick you previously claimed to like.

 

[Phrazbit]

also, the "hindsight", "no one could have predicted" defense doesn't suffice either

a few here would insist i'm no genius but in addition to multiple posts of me suggesting selling Warren and Jackson high, i several times suggested extending the contracts of Holmes and Oubre (relatively low) mid-season when they had demonstrated they were high energy, defensive minded players.

1tin for GM 2020

We were not allowed to extend them mid-season, I know I mentioned that whenever I saw it brought up.

I'd also like to suggest impossible things to demonstrate my GM brilliance.

Clone Jordan.

 

[1tinsoldier]

another analyst agrees with me that the Suns deserve an F:
https://sports.yahoo.com/tooearly-n...conference-receives-high-marks-210039197.html

"In one of the strangest moves of the summer, the Suns sold Warren — one of their more useful players last year — and the No. 32 pick for cash"

picked "Cam Johnson well before any prognosticators"

Rubio "may not be worth the $51 million"

"unclear if any of the Suns’ deals made them better than they would have been by standing pat", but cost them 1 lottery pick and 4 future picks.

 

[Hoop Head]

also, the "hindsight", "no one could have predicted" defense doesn't suffice either

a few here would insist i'm no genius but in addition to multiple posts of me suggesting selling Warren and Jackson high, i several times suggested extending the contracts of Holmes and Oubre (relatively low) mid-season when they had demonstrated they were high energy, defensive minded players.

1tin for GM 2020

A GM that doesn't realize extensions cannot be handed out at the time you wanted them to be done. We couldn't extend Holmes because we didn't have his bird rights and Oubre was on a rookie scale contract this past season and the Suns had to wait until the season was over and the moratorium past to sign him to an extension. So neither extension could have taken place this last season.

See the highlighted "Rookie scale extension" for Oubre's deal and right below that how it mentions having a players bird rights to offer an extension, which is what would be needed with Holmes.

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http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q58

 

[Mainstreet]

That's the impossible part of all this, we don't know the true max value a player has. So we aren't sure what the "true market value" was for guys like TJ and JJ. We're all just guessing (for those that are for or against the moves).

Obviously if you could read the minds of 29 GMs you could ascertain the max value of an asset. Since that's impossible we have to take educated guesses. And since most GMs aren't going to be honest about it we have to rely on opinions by guys that get paid to evaluate this stuff on TV/Podcasts/Websites (plus, of course, our own evaluations).

And that's the cruddy part. Most of the "experts" outside of the 30 GMs are panning most of these moves (except for the Saric move. I'm one of the few that didn't love the trade as I value defense more than offense.) So I'm not going out on a limb here about our asset management. Actually this whole thread is based on the opinions of one of these guys who I happen to agree with.

I totally get the liquefying assets thing to get Rubio. But it wasn't the only way to do it. Johnson was one of a couple of options. That's why guys like Olson are frustrated.

My frustration is currently isolated to the asset management of all this, not to our current situation. Our team is not all that bad. We did just add the best true PG on the market.

I value Johnson more than most because he can play both guard positions and he will likely back up Booker so I'd like to keep him. His expiring contract helps next summer and perhaps at the trade deadline as well.

The Suns are only one signing away from have a good off season but of course I'm still waiting.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

All of our core pieces are young, still developing and on the roster for multiple more years

Yes - we drafted Ayton/Bridges last year, and just signed Booker to a max extension. Would you honestly consider anyone else on the roster a core player?

and we are set up to have a lot of cap space next off season as well. We still have all of our own first round picks.

All true - that said, after watching the current FO manage cap space and our picks, I'm not terribly confident in their ability.

I fail to see this absolutely hopeless position that you are speaking of. We have a young developing roster with a ton of upside and a lot of cap flexibility moving forward. All of that is while also having put together a much deeper and more balanced roster with a legit starting PG to boot.

You paint a much rosier picture of our young talent than I believe is warranted. Booker is obviously a star, (although he's proven nothing other than being the best player on horrific teams), Ayton has underwhelmed, while showing signs of progress. Bridges is an excellent defender, but it's yet to be seen whether he can even progress to a top 3/D guy.

Other than that, where's the upside? I'm genuinely curious.

Again - yes, this team is deeper and more balanced, (with a middling but credible PG) but what is the goal here? To no longer be a complete embarrassment? Is an aspirational 30 wins and a bottom 5 record really where we're at now?

Sadly, outside of Booker/Ayton, there really is not much about this current group that offers much hope for the present, let alone the future.

 

[Proximo]

another analyst agrees with me that the Suns deserve an F:
https://sports.yahoo.com/tooearly-n...conference-receives-high-marks-210039197.html

Look, I am no big fan of Rubio - but to me it is pure BS to give the suns an F. An F would mean they got worse - they are absolutely better (well if they bring back Oubre).

I would give them a C.

 

[1Sun]

Except there is more value to cap space than just signing free agents. Such as making trades where you take back much more salary than you send out. Cap space is only a bad thing if you both have nowhere to spend it and decide to use it unwisely just for the sake of using it.

For those trades, you need something of value to exchange for any player worth trading for...

 

[Proximo]

Yes - we drafted Ayton/Bridges last year, and just signed Booker to a max extension. Would you honestly consider anyone else on the roster a core player?




All true - that said, after watching the current FO manage cap space and our picks, I'm not terribly confident in their ability.




You paint a much rosier picture of our young talent than I believe is warranted. Booker is obviously a star, (although he's proven nothing other than being the best player on horrific teams), Ayton has underwhelmed, while showing signs of progress. Bridges is an excellent defender, but it's yet to be seen whether he can even progress to a top 3/D guy.

Other than that, where's the upside? I'm genuinely curious.

Again - yes, this team is deeper and more balanced, (with a middling but credible PG) but what is the goal here? To no longer be a complete embarrassment? Is an aspirational 30 wins and a bottom 5 record really where we're at now?

Sadly, outside of Booker/Ayton, there really is not much about this current group that offers much hope for the present, let alone the future.

Ayton has not underwhelmed. His stats were better than AD and comparable to Towns rookie years. He is super efficient around the basket and a very good rebounder. I have zero doubt he will be an all-star.

I think Saric has upside. I think Kaminsky has upside. I think Lecque, Jerome, and Johnson all have upside.

We won't really know till we see the team play for sure.

 

[1Sun]

Look, I am no big fan of Rubio - but to me it is pure BS to give the suns an F. An F would mean they got worse - they are absolutely better (well if they bring back Oubre).

I would give them a C.

Again, I don't think it's that simple. I think the question is whether the Suns improved enough in exchange for what they gave up for that improvement, as well as whether the Suns demonstrated competence and good judgment in the process. That is where I think the Suns have failed if they do not re-sign Oubre.

 

[1tinsoldier]

again, whether the Suns roster got better or worse, Jones earned an F for failing to execute better deals (too little value for Warren, JJ, Melton and 5 picks, lost Holmes, overpaid Rubio, overvalued Cam)

signing Oubre was a minimum requirement of the off-season and they still haven't got that done -- F, even if he signs now

 

[1Sun]

Didn't bother to read this.

I was responding to you crapping on Jarome... a pick you previously claimed to like.

Another oversimplification. I can like Jerome as a prospect but at the same time think that his ceiling is as a solid back-up and that the Suns therefore gave up way too much to draft him.

 

[Proximo]

Again, I don't think it's that simple. I think the question is whether the Suns improved enough in exchange for what they gave up for that improvement, as well as whether the Suns demonstrated competence and good judgment in the process. That is where I think the Suns have failed if they do not re-sign Oubre.

They gave up 3 2nd rounders that arguably they should not have.

Truthfully look at what the last 10 2nd rounders have amounted too - basically nothing. It's not as bad as you make it seem, although I get we could get lucky on one of those - but it is very unlikely.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Ayton has not underwhelmed. His stats were better than AD and comparable to Towns rookie years. He is super efficient around the basket and a very good rebounder. I have zero doubt he will be an all-star.

I think Saric has upside. I think Kaminsky has upside. I think Lecque, Jerome, and Johnson all have upside.

We won't really know till we see the team play for sure.

It's weird - I agree with you about Ayton, but disagree that he wasn't underwhelming. His stats were obviously great, but I'd imagine most fans expected more. Hopefully he makes a leap in the 2nd year.

While I appreciate your enthusiasm regarding the upside of the other pieces, I think it's safe to say that none of the guys you mentioned will ever be quality starters. Hope they prove me wrong!

 

[1Sun]

They gave up 3 2nd rounders that arguably they should not have.

Truthfully look at what the last 10 2nd rounders have amounted too - basically nothing. It's not as bad as you make it seem, although I get we could get lucky on one of those - but it is very unlikely.

They also give up a future first rounder, a legitimate starting small forward (which will look particularly awful if Oubre is not re-signed), a knucklehead who still has all-star potential at his absolute lowest value without any effort to rehabilitate that value, an above average back-up center and a decent back-up shooting guard, and they acquired an okay starter and a handful of role players, two of which will only be here for one season.

 

[Hoop Head]

It's weird - I agree with you about Ayton, but disagree that he wasn't underwhelming. His stats were obviously great, but I'd imagine most fans expected more. Hopefully he makes a leap in the 2nd year.

While I appreciate your enthusiasm regarding the upside of the other pieces, I think it's safe to say that none of the guys you mentioned will ever be quality starters. Hope they prove me wrong!

I agree with this and your view on Ayton. His stats looked better than he did on the floor most nights. It was clear to see he could have posted bigger numbers but he had 2 things working against him. He wasn't good at demanding the ball and he didn't have anyone that was good at getting him the ball. If we had Rubio last year then I think Ayton could have averaged 20+ ppg somewhat easily. I'm anxious to see what he does this year.

 

[1Sun]

It's weird - I agree with you about Ayton, but disagree that he wasn't underwhelming. His stats were obviously great, but I'd imagine most fans expected more. Hopefully he makes a leap in the 2nd year.

While I appreciate your enthusiasm regarding the upside of the other pieces, I think it's safe to say that none of the guys you mentioned will ever be quality starters. Hope they prove me wrong!

My concern with Ayton wasn't the overall numbers. It is that he showed virtually zero improvement or development over the course of the season. I continue to hope that this was primarily the lack of a competent coach or a point guard. If it was the lack of rebounding and/or interior defense/rim protection from the power forward position, I think we're in trouble...

 

[Proximo]

They also give up a future first rounder, a legitimate starting small forward (which will look particularly awful if Oubre is not re-signed), a knucklehead who still has all-star potential at his absolute lowest value without any effort to rehabilitate that value, an above average back-up center and a decent back-up shooting guard, and they acquired an okay starter and a handful of role players, two of which will only be here for one season.

No - the future first rounder was a fair deal for Jerome and baynes because of where it will fall in next years draft.

I do not believe in Jackson at all - we just disagree on that. I think he is a negative to give playing time, and I do not think he will progress.

There is no reason to say Saric is gone after this year, if they want him they can keep him, he will be restricted. Same with Baynes really, but if he leaves it's no biggie, I am pretty sure they can get someone else comparable for 5 million.

I think Oubre is coming back - the question is is it for 1 year on the QO or a multi year deal.

 

[1Sun]

No - the future first rounder was a fair deal for Jerome and baynes because of where it will fall in next years draft.

I do not believe in Jackson at all - we just disagree on that. I think he is a negative to give playing time, and I do not think he will progress.

There is no reason to say Saric is gone after this year, if they want him they can keep him, he will be restricted. Same with Baynes really, but if he leaves it's no biggie, I am pretty sure they can get someone else comparable for 5 million.

I think Oubre is coming back - the question is is it for 1 year on the QO or a multi year deal.

If it's the QO, then Oubre this coming season will be no different than Warren and Ariza this past season and Bledsoe the season before.

 

[Proximo]

My concern with Ayton wasn't the overall numbers. It is that he showed virtually zero improvement or development over the course of the season. I continue to hope that this was primarily the lack of a competent coach or a point guard. If it was the lack of rebounding and/or interior defense/rim protection from the power forward position, I think we're in trouble...

That's just not true. His defense absolutely improved - team d especially. At the end of the season he was getting over a block a game. His offense improved a bit as well as he started to make a few dribble drives at the end of the year.

 

[Cheesebeef]

That's just not true. His defense absolutely improved - team d especially. At the end of the season he was getting over a block a game. His offense improved a bit as well as he started to make a few dribble drives at the end of the year.

Man... I saw none of this. And the stats don't bear it out either.

https://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/5958/splits

October through December, he averaged 17 ppg, on 60% shooting, grabbing 10.5 rebounds per game and .8 blocks.

January through March, he averaged 15.5 ppg, on 56% shooting, 9.5 rebounds per game and 1 block.

He literally went down in EVERY stat except blocks (where he barely went up) over the second half of the season.

 

[Phrazbit]

Another oversimplification. I can like Jerome as a prospect but at the same time think that his ceiling is as a solid back-up and that the Suns therefore gave up way too much to draft him.

The Bucks pick is way too much? Bucks pick will probably land in the final 4 picks of the draft next year. If Jarome is a rotation quality player then it's a good deal.

There are other deals that the value was way off, that wasn't among them.

 

[JCSunsfan]

The Bucks pick is way too much? Bucks pick will probably land in the final 4 picks of the draft next year. If Jarome is a rotation quality player then it's a good deal.

There are other deals that the value was way off, that wasn't among them.

If we are able to get a player that sticks on the roster with that Milwaukee pick, its a good deal.

 

[1Sun]

If we are able to get a player that sticks on the roster with that Milwaukee pick, its a good deal.

Just realize, then, that the end result is that the Suns will have traded a starting point guard (Bledsoe) straight up for a back-up point guard (Jerome)...