What to do with Scola?

[Mainstreet]

If you get a big center I want him to play like a big center. Gortat his first year here was the "polish hammer" because he could throw the ball down on occasion. The last few years he has tried to add finesse to his game and IMO it has really hurt his play. He goes for his dainty layups and has seen his shooting around the rim suffer dramatically.

Scola scores the way he does because he does not have the capability to be more traditionally aggressive, his style of play is not an easy one to play and it also contributes to how inconsistent he is. Again, the last thing I want Len to do is play like he is 6'8" and has to use guile to get off a still difficult shot attempt.

Scola is NOT a player I would want any big man with physical gifts to replicate.

I think there will be talk of trading Scola starting tomorrow when he is eligible. However, I do like big men that know how to bang some. I would not mind Len learning this trait. As you say, Gortat has turned into a finesse player after his first season with the Suns. Maybe there was some carryover of banging with Dwight Howard which has since evaporated.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I think there will be talk of trading Scola starting tomorrow when he is eligible. However, I do like big men that know how to bang some. I would not mind Len learning this trait. As you say, Gortat has turned into a finesse player after his first season with the Suns. Maybe there was some carryover of banging with Dwight Howard which has since evaporated.

I would not be surprised if a trade for Scola is already in place.

 

[Mainstreet]

I would not be surprised if a trade for Scola is already in place.

Same here. Now let's see if McDonnough is a magician and can move Beasley without costing the Suns assets.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Same here. Now let's see if McDonnough is a magician and can move Beasley without costing the Suns assets.

That's easy. Just cut him. We are not in the LT range and we are not in the market for free agents. No point in giving up assets unless its one you don't want or need anyway (like Marshall).

 

[elindholm]

If you get a big center I want him to play like a big center. Gortat his first year here was the "polish hammer" because he could throw the ball down on occasion.

That isn't really true. Sure, he dunked when Nash set him up perfectly, but even in his first few months with the Suns he was afraid of the rim and 10 times more likely to wind up on his ass after any given play than to have demonstrated any physical authority. He was the "Polish hammer" because one of the TV guys called him that, or maybe Gortat called himself that, and this board ran with it because he was, in spite of his faults, one of the best centers that this franchise has had. But he's always been soft, he's always preferred finesse to power, and he's always been mediocre at best among the league's starting centers.

 

[AzStevenCal]

That isn't really true. Sure, he dunked when Nash set him up perfectly, but even in his first few months with the Suns he was afraid of the rim and 10 times more likely to wind up on his ass after any given play than to have demonstrated any physical authority. He was the "Polish hammer" because one of the TV guys called him that, or maybe Gortat called himself that, and this board ran with it because he was, in spite of his faults, one of the best centers that this franchise has had. But he's always been soft, he's always preferred finesse to power, and he's always been mediocre at best among the league's starting centers.

IMO, he played much more of a finesse game last season than he had in the past whether his past game was finesse or not. He seemed to have all these Olajuwon type moves but had no idea how to actually put the ball in the basket once he made one of these moves.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

IMO, he played much more of a finesse game last season than he had in the past whether his past game was finesse or not. He seemed to have all these Olajuwon type moves but had no idea how to actually put the ball in the basket once he made one of these moves.

Steve

Exactly. Len can learn to apply his ballet powers as time goes on, for now I hope he focuses on learning the fundamentals. Rebound the ball, defend the rim and put it in the bucket when you are right at the hoop. Gortat and especially Scola are not players I think he should imitate to improve those skills.

 

[overseascardfan]

I am hoping PHX can trade him to POR for JJ Hickson in a sign and trade deal. Hickson provides exactly what PHX needs and ain't getting from Markieff Morris, inside scoring and rebounding. Plus he will only be 25 when the season starts so PHX can continue with its youth movement.

 

[Errntknght]

We need to get worse not better but Portland won't make that deal... they acquired an actual center today... Robin Lopez from the Pels.

 

[KJBuckets]

The problem Scola presents is that he is too good to sit on the bench and ill-fit playing alongside Gortat. The Suns discovered that you really can't have it both ways; that is, Gortat setting the pick and rolling while utilizing Scola 12 - 15 ft to catch and shoot. Further, Gortat never became dependable in the post (despite his claim that he's a better post player and should have more looks in the post). Scola is much more effective in the post, however, as a second or third option.
It's odd that the two never panned out last year playing together. I was hopeful they'd figure it out and develop some cool gritty front court identity.

Scola was pretty good with Yao Ming manning the post and scoring on broken plays or hitting a secondary open mid range shot. Perhaps he and Len would be a better fit -- that is unless Len is going to be brought up as a face up or rolling to the basket player.
Nonetheless, he'll make for good trade bait so long as the Suns give him minutes to demonstrate his production. I could care less about developing the Morris' games.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The problem Scola presents is that he is too good to sit on the bench and ill-fit playing alongside Gortat. The Suns discovered that you really can't have it both ways; that is, Gortat setting the pick and rolling while utilizing Scola 12 - 15 ft to catch and shoot. Further, Gortat never became dependable in the post (despite his claim that he's a better post player and should have more looks in the post). Scola is much more effective in the post, however, as a second or third option.
It's odd that the two never panned out last year playing together. I was hopeful they'd figure it out and develop some cool gritty front court identity.

Scola was pretty good with Yao Ming manning the post and scoring on broken plays or hitting a secondary open mid range shot. Perhaps he and Len would be a better fit -- that is unless Len is going to be brought up as a face up or rolling to the basket player.
Nonetheless, he'll make for good trade bait so long as the Suns give him minutes to demonstrate his production. I could care less about developing the Morris' games.

Scola has been on a downhill slide for several years now. Not that I have a clue when it comes to advanced stats but his win shares per 48 were up around .160 earlier in his career and they have been under .100 each of the last two years. League average is roughly .100. I think this worsening trend will continue. If someone offers us a bag of cheetos for the guy we really should consider it. Unless we're going to use him off the bench, I think he's more liability than asset.

Steve

 

[Superbone]

Scola has been on a downhill slide for several years now. Not that I have a clue when it comes to advanced stats but his win shares per 48 were up around .160 earlier in his career and they have been under .100 each of the last two years. League average is roughly .100. I think this worsening trend will continue. If someone offers us a bag of cheetos for the guy we really should consider it. Unless we're going to use him off the bench, I think he's more liability than asset.

Steve

Hmm. I wonder if his lowered win shares with us have anything to do with being on a sucky team? Nah.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

The problem Scola presents is that he is too good to sit on the bench and ill-fit playing alongside Gortat. The Suns discovered that you really can't have it both ways; that is, Gortat setting the pick and rolling while utilizing Scola 12 - 15 ft to catch and shoot. Further, Gortat never became dependable in the post (despite his claim that he's a better post player and should have more looks in the post). Scola is much more effective in the post, however, as a second or third option.
It's odd that the two never panned out last year playing together. I was hopeful they'd figure it out and develop some cool gritty front court identity.

Scola was pretty good with Yao Ming manning the post and scoring on broken plays or hitting a secondary open mid range shot. Perhaps he and Len would be a better fit -- that is unless Len is going to be brought up as a face up or rolling to the basket player.
Nonetheless, he'll make for good trade bait so long as the Suns give him minutes to demonstrate his production. I could care less about developing the Morris' games.

Good take, welcome to the board.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Hmm. I wonder if his lowered win shares with us have anything to do with being on a sucky team? Nah.

Ummm, no, they don't. It started four years ago and in fact his worst year was his last season in Houston. According to Basketball Reference, here are his WS/48 for the last 6 years in order; .154, .165, .114, .110, .080, .096. Again, remember the league average is roughly .100. His numbers aren't horrible but they do show a decline in value and they indicate he is a below average player.

Steve

 

[Superbone]

Ummm, no, they don't. It started four years ago and in fact his worst year was his last season in Houston. According to Basketball Reference, here are his WS/48 for the last 6 years in order; .154, .165, .114, .110, .080, .096. Again, remember the league average is roughly .100. His numbers aren't horrible but they do show a decline in value and they indicate he is a below average player.

Steve

And the eyeball test quickly refutes that. Well, for most of us anyway. (Including most commentators, many that gush over him. Hubie Brown in particular I kind of think he knows what he's talking about.)

 

[AzStevenCal]

And the eyeball test quickly refutes that. Well, for most of us anyway. (Including most commentators, many that gush over him. Hubie Brown in particular I kind of think he knows what he's talking about.)

I watched every minute of every game last season and I guarantee you that Hubie Brown didn't. Yes, Hubie knows a lot more than I do but do you really want me to ignore what I saw simply because someone who knows the game better holds a different opinion. In that case we might as well all play quote the expert and get on with our lives.

Steve

 

[Superbone]

I watched every minute of every game last season and I guarantee you that Hubie Brown didn't. Yes, Hubie knows a lot more than I do but do you really want me to ignore what I saw simply because someone who knows the game better holds a different opinion. In that case we might as well all play quote the expert and get on with our lives.

Steve

Nope. I don't want you to ignore what you saw. I watched every minute as well. It just seems to me like you didn't like him to begin with and that filtered your view throughout the season.

 

[Phrazbit]

Scola, at this point in his career, is a below average player, and he is in serious decline. A good team could use his scoring off the bench but if he is a starter then its you've got a real problem up front.

The guy has always been a horrible defender and now we've seen his shooting numbers drop for 4 straight seasons. When a scoring forward stops scoring well their value obviously drops like a rock.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Nope. I don't want you to ignore what you saw. I watched every minute as well. It just seems to me like you didn't like him to begin with and that filtered your view throughout the season.

And I think you're wrong. Yes, I disliked him before he came to Phoenix and I never tried to hide it. I had always hated him because I believe trying to dupe the refs into making a bad call is tantamount to cheating and he was arguably the worst offender of this. But if you had asked me, I would have told you that he was one of the better power forwards in the game. I didn't turn on him as a player until I watched him every night.

If you remember, I challenged you and everyone else to take the Scola test and none of you would. I still maintain that if you had watched him (focusing solely on him) for any three game stretch in the first half of last season that you would have turned against him also. He was a better player in the second half of the season but he was still no more than a decent role player.

He had this one trick that he would pull several times a game. He would be on the strong side guarding his man when out of the clear blue he would abandon him and drift to the other side and begin to guard a man who was already covered (by Gortat every single time BTW). That would force Marcin to race across the key to try and pick up the unguarded man who would inevitably lay it in just about the time Gortat got within a few feet of him. Casual watchers would exclaim "gee, there's Gortat playing soft again" but anyone that watched the play develop would have seen it another way. I'm convinced it's why Gentry moved Scola to the bench for awhile. For some reason he never tried this trick on O'Neal (probably because Jermaine might have decked him for it) and after losing his starting spot he no longer did it as frequently but he still did it on occasion once he moved back in to a starting role with Gortat.

The other thing that bothered me was the fact he would take a shot that was out of his range rather than work to get a better shot or give it back to the point guard. I was especially frustrated because game after game our announcing duo would rave about what a great shooter he was from that spot. It wasn't until probably two thirds of the season had passed before Eddie finally figured out what defenses had long ago figured out. Luis had a range out to just beyond the free throw line and not one inch further. He even commented a few times about Scola's willingness to take that shot when it was clearly beyond his comfort zone.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

Scola, at this point in his career, is a below average player, and he is in serious decline. A good team could use his scoring off the bench but if he is a starter then its you've got a real problem up front.

The guy has always been a horrible defender and now we've seen his shooting numbers drop for 4 straight seasons. When a scoring forward stops scoring well their value obviously drops like a rock.

Some people show the mileage more than others. Scola is only 33 but he's been playing professional ball at one level or another for 18 years and I think it's clearly caught up with him.

Steve

 

[Sci Fi]

I watched every minute of every game last season and I guarantee you that Hubie Brown didn't. Yes, Hubie knows a lot more than I do but do you really want me to ignore what I saw simply because someone who knows the game better holds a different opinion. In that case we might as well all play quote the expert and get on with our lives.

Steve

You're really talking out of both sides of your mouth here in this Scola argument. When someone suggests that other very knowledgeable analysts don't feel as you do your defense is you're going with your own opinion. Fair enough. You should. But then you insist Scola is in decline and use WS's as your basis for that argument.

Well, what is WS other than SOMEONE'S OPINION, put into a formula, of how a player performed. It's a stat invented by Dean Oliver that allocates points per possession to players and then attempts to do something similar on defense. It's interesting, well thought out but still makes a lot of dubious allocations. It's neither gospel nor magic but because it's "advanced", it's attributed more than it's worth by basketball fans. The biggest problem with it as I see it is that people fail to realize it's limitation (eg, you don't realize that the team you play on does indeed effect the stat) and many site as if it were fact.

I have no problem with you disliking Scola as a player. I disagree but that's beside the point here. My problem with your argument is you hide (unintentionally) behind stats to substantiate your argument and fail to realize their limitations. I could just as easily have used RAPM (the stat most stat geeks prefer) for the years 2010-2012 (2013 isn't available). Using that as my "opinion", it would show 2010 as his worst year, although all were roughly similar. It doesn't show a decline. This stat would agree with my personal opinion.

 

[Sci Fi]

BTW, I should add that I wish I had read your challenge re: Scola's interior defense during the year. There were a lot of problems but I can't say I noticed this. I had A LOT of problems with Gortat's defense. I get league pass and would go back and watch games now but they're no longer available. Regardless of what the problem was, it's things like this that give me hope because I believe Gentry was unable to fix problems, especially on defense. Hornacek is new but I have so much more faith.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You're really talking out of both sides of your mouth here in this Scola argument. When someone suggests that other very knowledgeable analysts don't feel as you do your defense is you're going with your own opinion. Fair enough. You should. But then you insist Scola is in decline and use WS's as your basis for that argument.

Well, what is WS other than SOMEONE'S OPINION, put into a formula, of how a player performed. It's a stat invented by Dean Oliver that allocates points per possession to players and then attempts to do something similar on defense. It's interesting, well thought out but still makes a lot of dubious allocations. It's neither gospel nor magic but because it's "advanced", it's attributed more than it's worth by basketball fans. The biggest problem with it as I see it is that people fail to realize it's limitation (eg, you don't realize that the team you play on does indeed effect the stat) and many site as if it were fact.

I have no problem with you disliking Scola as a player. I disagree but that's beside the point here. My problem with your argument is you hide (unintentionally) behind stats to substantiate your argument and fail to realize their limitations. I could just as easily have used RAPM (the stat most stat geeks prefer) for the years 2010-2012 (2013 isn't available). Using that as my "opinion", it would show 2010 as his worst year, although all were roughly similar. It doesn't show a decline. This stat would agree with my personal opinion.

I don't see how I've come anywhere close to talking out of both sides of my mouth. Did I or did I not acknowledge that I knew next to nothing about advanced stats? I rarely bring them into a conversation for this very reason. And I have made specific points about what I dislike about his game in the many threads where this conversation has occurred. You've jumped into a conversation that has been off again, on again since December 2012.

Also, I wasn't trying to defend my position over that of the experts on the basis that it was my opinion. I just pointed out the fallacy of throwing out some random comment from Hubie Brown in an effort to suggest my opinion has no validity. It's a stupid way to argue. If we're going to ignore our own opinions simply because someone can throw out an expert who feels otherwise then there is simply no need for any discussion here. We just quote an expert and move on.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

Do we really need to debate if Scola is in decline or not? He is 33, between his international play and NBA play he has a 17+ years of mileage, he was recently amnestied, his stats have slipped dramatically from his peak, his shooting percentage had dipped 4 years in a row.

Looking at the big picture, he virtually defines the profile of a declining player.

 

[Sci Fi]

Steve,

My point is really this. You say you're not a stats guy and then use them to illustrate his decline. Isn't that a bit inconsistent?

And re: your own opinion. I did say you should go with your own opinion, didn't I?

As to Scola, I don't think anyone would say he isn't in decline. The question really is how much? His shooting is the thing that has suffered the most. I would then ask why? I really don't know since I haven't followed him all that much except the last two years. I actually thought he looked pretty good in the second half of last season. Was he effected by playing with Beasley and Brown?I realize pretty much everyone would trade him for a ham sandwich but guys like that have a lot of value. I just think he has a lot of value potentially to the Suns.