Whisenhunt deserves praise

[PACardsFan]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_yl...shells_week_15


4. Steve Spagnuolo might be fighting for his coaching life, but the other NFC West teams have received some excellent leadership this season. Ask league insiders and they will tell you that Cardinals head coach Ken Whisenhunt is maybe one of the seven or eight best coaches in the NFL. He's proving it this season. Week in and week out, he puts his team in a position to win no matter the health of his offense and has allowed Ray Horton to run the show for what appears to be a defense with a bright future. We also need to credit Seahawks head coach Pete Carroll for finishing strong the past two seasons, something he didn't do in his tenure a generation ago in New England. Both teams are 7-7 and mathematically in the race. Sure, they probably are the longest of long shots. But Whisenhunt and Carroll have given their teams a chance. Young teams, as these are, don't often respond to late-season coaching when all appears lost. These two guys have done well for themselves.

Be careful Shane. I made similar comments last week & the Whiz haters were on me like white on rice! Crow is a tasty plate, UNLESS you're a Whiz hater.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Be careful Shane. I made similar comments last week & the Whiz haters were on me like white on rice! Crow is a tasty plate, UNLESS you're a Whiz hater.

Nice try. Many people are giving him praise. Myself included. Although I personally didn't want him fired, I wanted more results.

 

[Shane]

Nice try. Many people are giving him praise. Myself included. Although I personally didn't want him fired, I wanted more results.

Quite a few giving back handed praise is what I believe he means.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Quite a few giving back handed praise is what I believe he means.

Praise is praise. Look how many people give Beanie back-handed praise for the year he's had.

 

[Russ Smith]

It's so easy to rip a coach from the outside for things like playing the wrong guy but unless you're there at practice you can never actually be sure.

One of the points I heard made by Wolfley recently when i was listening on my phone at one point in a game was that the main reason Schofield didn't play more early on is he was out of position so much and they kept correcting it in practice. Horton finally got through to him if you don't prove to me you can do it in practice, you won't play much in games, I don't care if you say you knew that if you do it wrong in practice I assume you'll do it wrong in the game too.

So when we're all complaining the wrong guy is playing often we just don't know the real reasons why.

We see it with Beanie too why didn't he play more in the past, because he was terrible in blitz pickups and we threw alot. NOw he's figured it all out, he stays on the field more.

Why doesn't Housler play more, partly due to injury of course but also due to not knowing the offense yet. Wolfley called him out too said if you really watch at least twice a game he'll come back to the huddle or sideline being talked to because he ran the wrong route.

 

[Duckjake]

It's so easy to rip a coach from the outside for things like playing the wrong guy but unless you're there at practice you can never actually be sure.

Yes you can. Almost everyone here knew that Ryan was a psychopath when it came to offense. That McGinnis was in over his head and that Denny Green just didn't know how to use the talent he brought in. And they were right. Heck even 40 year posted that Green was a bust.

What is easy is to assume is that the NFL is some sort of advanced Calculus that only those who have been intimately involved can understand.

But that's not true. With today's technology the modern fan is 1000 times more informed than back in the 60s or 70s when the only information anyone received was from newspapers. And if you were outside the area you would only have week old or more information.

 

[40yearfan]

Yes you can. Almost everyone here knew that Ryan was a psychopath when it came to offense. That McGinnis was in over his head and that Denny Green just didn't know how to use the talent he brought in. And they were right. Heck even 40 year posted that Green was a bust.
What is easy is to assume is that the NFL is some sort of advanced Calculus that only those who have been intimately involved can understand.

But that's not true. With today's technology the modern fan is 1000 times more informed than back in the 60s or 70s when the only information anyone received was from newspapers. And if you were outside the area you would only have week old or more information.

Only as a head coach. The fact that he never bad-mouthed this organization after leaving and is a good guy has him pretty high in my book.

 

[Russ Smith]

Only as a head coach. The fact that he never bad-mouthed this organization after leaving and is a good guy has him pretty high in my book.

I do agree with DJ's main point we're more informed today as fans but we still have no idea what goes on in practice. yes Buddy Ryan took a very good offense and destroyed it, that was obvious. But it's less obvious why the Cards waited to play Schofield more.

now Acho on the other hand I blame the coaches because he's a VERY bright kid I seriously doubt he was having a hard time with the scheme, they were just figuring they knew what to expect from Porter and waited too long to start Sam.

And sometimes the coaches just need time to figure out what a guy does well. New DC, short camp and preseason was used as catchup time so it took Horton awhile to figure out what Acho did best, what Marshall could do etc.

I don't think he just woke up one day and was a better coach the guys picked up the system and he learned who he was coaching.

 

[conraddobler]

Horton just started, he relied on older players too long but as Russ said that's somewhat to be expected.

You don't use live counting games in the NFL to experiment with rookies very often, especially at the start of the season.

Personally I would of started them sooner that's just my personality to give it a whirl but that's probably why I"m not a coach in the NFL cause they get paid to win, not experiment.

 

[Duckjake]

Only as a head coach. The fact that he never bad-mouthed this organization after leaving and is a good guy has him pretty high in my book.

And this is relevant to fans knowing a coach is a failure how?

 

[Chopper0080]

Horton just started, he relied on older players too long but as Russ said that's somewhat to be expected.

You don't use live counting games in the NFL to experiment with rookies very often, especially at the start of the season.

Personally I would of started them sooner that's just my personality to give it a whirl but that's probably why I"m not a coach in the NFL cause they get paid to win, not experiment.

Horton also came from Pitts where he said that they hardly ever started rookies on defense because of the tremendous learning curve.

 

[Duckjake]

Horton also came from Pitts where he said that they hardly ever started rookies on defense because of the tremendous learning curve.

It's my understanding that the Steelers almost never start rookies because they are drafting them 2-3 years before they need them.

Of course Maurkice Pouncey started as a rookie at Center for them and they won yet another AFC Title. While the majority of successful teams have a tenured Center. I'm all in on K9's generational concept because the Steelers win in spite of all the NFL cliches.

 

[Stout]

Be careful Shane. I made similar comments last week & the Whiz haters were on me like white on rice! Crow is a tasty plate, UNLESS you're a Whiz hater.

No, you ripped on people for being on his case earlier in the season. I am not a KW hater, as I have been giving him love for weeks. I simply refused to give him love for what I and many perceived to be poor, inflexible coaching early in the season.

Nice try. Many people are giving him praise. Myself included. Although I personally didn't want him fired, I wanted more results.

Hallelujah, my friend! I will sing KW's praises to the masses. He has definitely shown that he can adjust his system to the team he has, and he has shown great willingness to play younger, better players. He's definitely at the top of his game coaching right now.

 

[Duckjake]

No, you ripped on people for being on his case earlier in the season. I am not a KW hater, as I have been giving him love for weeks. I simply refused to give him love for what I and many perceived to be poor, inflexible coaching early in the season.



Hallelujah, my friend! I will sing KW's praises to the masses. He has definitely shown that he can adjust his system to the team he has, and he has shown great willingness to play younger, better players. He's definitely at the top of his game coaching right now.

I'm with you Stout. I just can't understand people who can't understand why fans would be upset with a coach whose team had 15 losses in 18 games including a 7 game losing streak last season and 6 games this season. Especially when almost everyone is giving him thumbs up for his team turning it around and going 6-1.

 

[Darkside]

Dudes, it's not his less-than-stellar win-loss record, it's the fact that he took a perennial loser to an 8-8 record, making us feel better about our team than we had in years, and then the very next year took us to 9-7 and a SB. Then, the following year, which, in my opinion was Whis's best year, we went 10-6 and beat GB (a great team) in the first round of the playoffs. We lost to the Saints in the playoffs, which is nothing to be ashamed of, even though they played dirty and knocked our HOF QB out of the game (just had to throw that in there). That's 3 really good years followed by crap last year and hope this year.

I have no complaints. I think he's a great coach, especially considering he's trying to take a bunch of losers to another SB and more playoffs. We're like a messed up street dog that gets kicked around all the time, just beat down, and you try to feed it and it just growls at you and try's to bite you. That's us. Whis is the dude with the food.

 

[Duckjake]

Dudes, it's not his less-than-stellar win-loss record, it's the fact that he took a perennial loser to an 8-8 record, making us feel better about our team than we had in years, and then the very next year took us to 9-7 and a SB. Then, the following year, which, in my opinion was Whis's best year, we went 10-6 and beat GB (a great team) in the first round of the playoffs. We lost to the Saints in the playoffs, which is nothing to be ashamed of, even though they played dirty and knocked our HOF QB out of the game (just had to throw that in there). That's 3 really good years followed by crap last year and hope this year.

I have no complaints. I think he's a great coach, especially considering he's trying to take a bunch of losers to another SB and more playoffs. We're like a messed up street dog that gets kicked around all the time, just beat down, and you try to feed it and it just growls at you and try's to bite you. That's us. Whis is the dude with the food.

But, as you noted, the Cards were no longer losers after 2009. They hadn't had a losing season in 3 years and were rolling teams in '09. It was the disaster that was 2010 and the 1-6 start to 2011 that brought back all the ghosts. Also teams coached by Ken Whisenhunt.

Like I wrote, CKW deserved the criticism for 6-17 and he deserves the praise for 6-1.

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I just wish I could praise him but if I did we'd finish the season 7-9. In fact I'm worried about the next two games. The Cardinals have long been a team that, as you say gets beat down and then rises up to bite you. But they haven't been a team that responds well to the dog bowl being full all day every day. So you guys need to stop with the praise for these guys. We need to write all day every day that they're a bunch of no playin' fools stealin' the Bidwills money.

Then we'll get to see wins the next two weeks and our 4th non losing season in 5 years. Something that has only happened twice since 1950. ( '60-'64 and '73-'77)

 

[Darkside]

Next two are tough no doubt. People underestimate Seattle man, they are tough and are on the same winning streak we are. Cinci will be tough as well, perhaps tougher. Both games will test the true character of our team.

 

[CtCardinals78]

I was very critical of him the past year and for very good reason, we saw players, good core players being replaced by less talented players and low round (4,5,6,7) draft picks. A lot of these picks were injured or small school projects. The difference on the field was immediate. It looked like the team was back to the good old days. I give Whisenhunt all the credit in the world. This team was in a free fall and he turned it around and appears to have righted the ship. Everyone who was critical of him and his moves were completely justified, just as those who stuck by him were, but let's not forget this was a two time division champion team who plays in one of the easier divisions in the NFL and went 5-11 and whatever this year will be. The NFCW is much improved, but I'm a lot more optimistic about the future than I was two months ago. I'm not going to eat crow, but Whisenhunt does deserve a lot of kudos for this turnaround.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Just read this Rugby. Praise is warranted whether you choose to believe it or not.

I respect the opinion.

Just don't agree with it.

Whiz has done a lot of bad, and ridiculous things over the last two years. I am happy to see it come togethe of course.

But, a lot of things, ala Warner, fell into this lap and forced him to make changes.

He didn't choose to play John Skelton, and Acho. He didn't choose to run the ball more. Kolb got injured and it forced Whiz to start Skelton and run the ball more. Porter got hurt, and it forced Acho to play more.

Finally, while John Skelton gets waved off as a winning QB, because the team is winning in spite of Skelton, through special teams, and defense, Whiz now deserves praise under the same situation ?

Sorry not buying it.

If Whiz deserves praise, then so does John Skelton, and visa versa. Both are products of injury forcing situations to happen, along with a improved defense (Horton), and an unbelievable special teams weapon in Peterson.

Praise ? Maybe, but I am not ready to give it. Out of the dog house ? Yeah, certainly. Whiz has the benefit of the doubt right now, but I am a long way off from saying "In Whiz I trust" again.

It took a lot to get me off the Whiz band wagon, and it will take just as much to get me back on said wagon.

You want me to praise someone ? I praise Ray Horton from taking a porous defense that couldn't hold a lead, and making it a weapon.

 

[Chopper0080]

I respect the opinion.

Just don't agree with it.

Whiz has done a lot of bad, and ridiculous things over the last two years. I am happy to see it come togethe of course.

But, a lot of things, ala Warner, fell into this lap and forced him to make changes.

He didn't choose to play John Skelton, and Acho. He didn't choose to run the ball more. Kolb got injured and it forced Whiz to start Skelton and run the ball more. Porter got hurt, and it forced Acho to play more.

Finally, while John Skelton gets waved off as a winning QB, because the team is winning in spite of Skelton, through special teams, and defense, Whiz now deserves praise under the same situation ?

Sorry not buying it.

If Whiz deserves praise, then so does John Skelton, and visa versa. Both are products of injury forcing situations to happen, along with a improved defense (Horton), and an unbelievable special teams weapon in Peterson.

Praise ? Maybe, but I am not ready to give it. Out of the dog house ? Yeah, certainly. Whiz has the benefit of the doubt right now, but I am a long way off from saying "In Whiz I trust" again.

It took a lot to get me off the Whiz band wagon, and it will take just as much to get me back on said wagon.

You want me to praise someone ? I praise Ray Horton from taking a porous defense that couldn't hold a lead, and making it a weapon.

Do you not remember how bad we used to be? This is the best stretch of Cardinals football EVER! If you can't enjoy this and give credit to the people who helped usher in this era, then you need to look at yourself as a fan. By all means, be critical and demand improvement, but to discount everything good that has happened because of a poor year and a half is rediculous.

As far as starting players goes, they don't come with an overall rating like Madden to compare and contrast. The important thing is that our coaches got it right, not when or why it happened.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Do you not remember how bad we used to be? This is the best stretch of Cardinals football EVER! If you can't enjoy this and give credit to the people who helped usher in this era, then you need to look at yourself as a fan. By all means, be critical and demand improvement, but to discount everything good that has happened because of a poor year and a half is rediculous.

As far as starting players goes, they don't come with an overall rating like Madden to compare and contrast. The important thing is that our coaches got it right, not when or why it happened.

Re-read the post, and get back to me. You are way off base.

I am not going to praise Whiz (that is a single person) for going .500 this year. I don't care about how it came to be, the team is .500. The reasons for this I listed above.

I praised Horton, I have multiple posts talking about how impressed I am with a lot of things. Unfortunately, our head coach, and our offensive coaches are not something that I am impressed with.

If you don't like it, and think I am a "bad fan" for it, honestly, I could care less. You wanna question they way I root for this team ? OK. I question your blind, follow the leader off the cliff, following of everything this team does.

You bash me cause I can't praise someone in the organization, and yet there are pages of you bashing the hell out of John Skelton, who is one of the reason that "Whiz" has done so well, and deserves so much praise.

It seems it is not so much that I don't praise individuals (at least by your standard I don't), as much as I don't praise those whom YOU think are worthy.

So, I will stick with my opinion of the situation. Thank you.

 

[Chopper0080]

Re-read the post, and get back to me. You are way off base.

I am not going to praise Whiz (that is a single person) for going .500 this year. I don't care about how it came to be, the team is .500. The reasons for this I listed above.

I praised Horton, I have multiple posts talking about how impressed I am with a lot of things. Unfortunately, our head coach, and our offensive coaches are not something that I am impressed with.

If you don't like it, and think I am a "bad fan" for it, honestly, I could care less. You wanna question they way I root for this team ? OK. I question your blind, follow the leader off the cliff, following of everything this team does.

You bash me cause I can't praise someone in the organization, and yet there are pages of you bashing the hell out of John Skelton, who is one of the reason that "Whiz" has done so well, and deserves so much praise.

It seems it is not so much that I don't praise individuals (at least by your standard I don't), as much as I don't praise those whom YOU think are worthy.

So, I will stick with my opinion of the situation. Thank you.

You praise Horton, but fail to give credit to the guy who hired him and didn't bash him when the defense was struggling.

You praise Skelton, but fail to give credit to the person who lobbied for the team to trade up and get him.

Yes, I have been critical of Skelton in regards to that fact that I haven't seen enough to say that he is a better option for the future of this team than Kolb. I have never once stated that he hasn't done a great job of coming in as a backup and doing his job. The concept of "next man up" was a myth until recently. We have lost our backup RB and number 1 CB for the season. Lost our starting NT, QB, and FS for half the season, but inexplicably we have gotten better. I have never seen a Cardinal team come together and rally like they have this year, but yet you don't credit the head coach for instilling that mentality. How does that make sense?

I have no problems with people being critical of the team and players. By all means, demand more, and don't settle for .500 seasons. Don't settle for "In Whis I trust" and demand to see improvement. But, you can't demand improvement and then bury your head in the sand when the team shows it. I find it rediculous that people can blame the head coach for all of the team's problems, yet fail to give that same head coach his due credit for the team's successes. The hypocricy of it is amazing.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I find it rediculous that people can blame the head coach for all of the team's problems, yet fail to give that same head coach his due credit for the team's successes. The hypocricy of it is amazing.

I'm pretty sure he said that Whis had his trust, lost it, and now has to earn it back. That sounds reasonable and logical to me.... If this was any other relationship that you have, you'd expect someone to act in the same manner...

 

[MadCardDisease]

I think Whiz deserves our support. I've been saying this for the last year and a half when people have been coming at him with torches and pitch forks. He's the winningest coach in Cardinals history.

Does he need praise from everyone? I really don't care. However I think he deserves RESPECT and support from all Cardinals fans.

 

[Chopper0080]

I'm pretty sure he said that Whis had his trust, lost it, and now has to earn it back. That sounds reasonable and logical to me.... If this was any other relationship that you have, you'd expect someone to act in the same manner...

Which is fine, albeit fickle when it is in regards to the winningest coach in team history, but you can't then refuse to acknowledge the successes that the coach is responsible for just because he lost your trust. As they say, the proof is IN the pudding.

(For the record, my comments are directed to others on the board as well, not just Rugby who, regardless of our disagreements, is a great board contributor.)