Whisenhunt deserves praise

[dreamcastrocks]

Which is fine, albeit fickle when it is in regards to the winningest coach in team history, but you can't then refuse to acknowledge the successes that the coach is responsible for just because he lost your trust. As they say, the proof is IN the pudding.

(For the record, my comments are directed to others on the board as well, not just Rugby who, regardless of our disagreements, is a great board contributor.)

Winningest coach in team history after only a few years should only further one's skepticism with this franchise. We have been woefully bad for so long.

Furthermore, how long does a coach have a team that is struggling get before it is acceptable to complain about the job he does? I'd say you should be allowed to question it after a season and a half of ineptitude, but that's just me. It is definitely relative. Why does everyone have to have the same expectations of players, coaches, management?

 

[82CardsGrad]

Winningest coach in team history after only a few years should only further one's skepticism with this franchise. We have been woefully bad for so long.

Is Whiz somehow accountable for the historic crappyness of this franchise?? All he can do is do the best job he knows how - which, in this case, has brought him to the top of a pile of crap. He is now the alltime winningest coach in franchise history, after only 4 plus seasons... I fail to understand what the history of the franchise has to do with Whiz's accomplishment? In any profession, you want to improve the situation and make the situation better than what was there before you. Well, should Whiz finish .500 or better this season, he will have had only ONE losing season in his first 5 years as a head coach. I don't care what franchise you're talking about, that's pretty damn good coaching in my book!

 

[Shane]

Is Whiz somehow accountable for the historic crappyness of this franchise?? All he can do is do the best job he knows how - which, in this case, has brought him to the top of a pile of crap. He is now the alltime winningest coach in franchise history, after only 4 plus seasons... I fail to understand what the history of the franchise has to do with Whiz's accomplishment? In any profession, you want to improve the situation and make the situation better than what was there before you. Well, should Whiz finish .500 or better this season, he will have had only ONE losing season in his first 5 years as a head coach. I don't care what franchise you're talking about, that's pretty damn good coaching in my book!

Perfectly stated!

:head2head:

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Is Whiz somehow accountable for the historic crappyness of this franchise?? All he can do is do the best job he knows how - which, in this case, has brought him to the top of a pile of crap. He is now the alltime winningest coach in franchise history, after only 4 plus seasons... I fail to understand what the history of the franchise has to do with Whiz's accomplishment? In any profession, you want to improve the situation and make the situation better than what was there before you. Well, should Whiz finish .500 or better this season, he will have had only ONE losing season in his first 5 years as a head coach. I don't care what franchise you're talking about, that's pretty damn good coaching in my book!

I never said he was responsible, nor implied it.

If you have a bad breakup in a relationship, you might have problems trusting someone in your next relationship. It's human nature. May not be fair, but it is what it is. Even in that Whisenhunt's tenure, there were enough hard times to question it.

If someone is a perfect spouse for 3 years and then cheats on someone for a year and a half, should you still blindly trust that person?

 

[MrYeahBut]

I never said he was responsible, nor implied it.

If you have a bad breakup in a relationship, you might have problems trusting someone in your next relationship. It's human nature. May not be fair, but it is what it is. Even in that Whisenhunt's tenure, there were enough hard times to question it.

If someone is a perfect spouse for 3 years and then cheats on someone for a year and a half, should you still blindly trust that person?

The Cards have cheated on me for 40+ years... well,except for a few years sandwiched in the middle

 

[dreamcastrocks]

The Cards have cheated on me for 40+ years... well,except for a few years sandwiched in the middle

Exactly my point.

 

[Chopper0080]

I never said he was responsible, nor implied it.

If you have a bad breakup in a relationship, you might have problems trusting someone in your next relationship. It's human nature. May not be fair, but it is what it is. Even in that Whisenhunt's tenure, there were enough hard times to question it.
If someone is a perfect spouse for 3 years and then cheats on someone for a year and a half, should you still blindly trust that person?

And this is where I disagree, but that is just my opinion.

Regardless, questioning due to a lack of trust and failing to acknowledge evidentially backed accomplishments are two different things.

 

[Shane]

I never said he was responsible, nor implied it.

If you have a bad breakup in a relationship, you might have problems trusting someone in your next relationship. It's human nature. May not be fair, but it is what it is. Even in that Whisenhunt's tenure, there were enough hard times to question it.

If someone is a perfect spouse for 3 years and then cheats on someone for a year and a half, should you still blindly trust that person?

I am married and have been cheated on and am going through a nasty divorce because of it. Are you really trying to compare that to football? I mean really?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

And this is where I disagree, but that is just my opinion.

Regardless, questioning due to a lack of trust and failing to acknowledge evidentially backed accomplishments are two different things.

Fair enough. Let me ask you, how long of a leash does Whisenhunt have? I personally thought he had through mid season next year to turn it around before he was on the hot seat. He was never officially on the hot seat to me. I just understand both sides of the argument.

Are you really trying to compare that to football? I mean really?

I guess so. Some people love this game and show it more attention than their own marriage. I'm not claiming the analogy is perfect, but it somewhat fits. I'm not speaking about your marriage because I have no knowledge of it.

 

[82CardsGrad]

I never said he was responsible, nor implied it.

If you have a bad breakup in a relationship, you might have problems trusting someone in your next relationship. It's human nature. May not be fair, but it is what it is. Even in that Whisenhunt's tenure, there were enough hard times to question it.

If someone is a perfect spouse for 3 years and then cheats on someone for a year and a half, should you still blindly trust that person?

Meh... There is nothing in Whiz's tenure that can be/should be equated to cheating on your spouse...the closest thing I guess could be his poor relationship with Boldin, however, as regretable as that was, it was not too surprising knowing that with Fitz chosen as the long-term #1, there was no way to make Boldin happy...

Whiz has been, by far, the most consistent coach this franchise has ever had. It's funny that you and others will harp on the galactical ineptitude of this franchise, and then condemn the coach that has taken this piss-poor franchise to a Super Bowl, back to back NFC Championship games, and potentially only ONE losing season in his first 5 years... If the franchise was as bad as you seem to believe it was (and nobody would argue that fact...), did you then expect to see a total 180 degree turn-around in the blink of an eye?? Turning this franchise around is greater than turning the Titanic... You don't go from the single worst franchise in NFL history, to consistent contender overnight... Layers and layers of dead skin need to be removed and it takes time.
IMHO, Whiz's roll of the dice with Kolb is a huge moment in his career and sets up 2012 as "THE" year for Whiz. It is right to expect a post season birth in 2012. Anything short of that and yes, Whiz will have, for the first time in his head coaching career, underachieved.

But for now, sitting at 7 & 7 and still with a shot at the post season, Whiz deserves mad props and respect!

 

[Cheesebeef]

I am married and have been cheated on and am going through a nasty divorce because of it. Are you really trying to compare that to football? I mean really?

seriously... football's MUCH more important.

 

[Shane]

seriously... football's MUCH more important.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

The hypocricy of it is amazing.

Hypocrisy ?

Where ?

Edit: I re-read you post. Yes, I see that hypocrisy, but throw that at the other posters that deserve it. Whiz was part of the problem, but not the whole problem. I gave out plenty of blame to plenty of Cardinals players, and staff. I have also have stated when I was dead wrong about something later as well.

Praising Whiz ? Not one of the things I see that I am wrong about, and furthermore don't see why the need, and the expectation to praise that guy is now warranted. Sorry. The guy still can't pick or coach a QB to save his life. They still call really stupid plays, in big situations. And as always, our offensive line is still pretty bad. Are these ever going to get fixed, or is Warner, and Ray Horton just expected to constantly make up for these glaring problems every year ?

I thought this team should be 8-8 at the beginning of the year. They are on pace to be 8-8.

They are doing what is expect, and before that were under-achieving at a massive level.

Give kudos to the guy who is doing his job, and finally delivering the product that is expected ? Seriously ?

Sorry, this is a business. Praise go to those who pass expectations.

 

[Shane]

Hypocrisy ?

Where ?

I thought this team should be 8-8 at the beginning of the year. They are on pace to be 8-8.

They are doing what is expect, and before that were under-achieving at a massive level.

Give kudos to the guy who is doing his job, and finally delivering the product that is expected ? Seriously ?

Sorry, this is a business. Praise go to those who pass expectations.

Last I checked the season is 16 games not 7?

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Last I checked the season is 16 games not 7?

Fair enough.

So, for the first 7 games the team was dreadfully disappointing and I was one of those ready to fire Whiz.

Now the team is playing to where I and many thought it should be. Thus I am fine with Whiz. The team is playing par for the course right now.

They are competitive, improving, and I am real happy with the whole situation.

Do I think Whiz is the main reason for the improvement since the first 7 games ? No, I don't. Do I think an expected 8-8 season is something to praise a guy for ? No, I don't.

He did his job, and lived up to the expectation. I'd give him a hand sake, and a job well done.

If we were sitting on 9 or 10 wins right now, we had a consistent and effective offense ? Yeah, ok, maybe I will start to praise the guy.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Hypocrisy ?

Where ?

I thought this team should be 8-8 at the beginning of the year. They are on pace to be 8-8.

They are doing what is expect, and before that were under-achieving at a massive level.

Give kudos to the guy who is doing his job, and finally delivering the product that is expected ? Seriously ?

Sorry, this is a business. Praise go to those who pass expectations.

Seriously?? For a team that had the highest player turnover of any other NFL team? A new Defensive Coordinator? A new Free Agent QB who had yet to play a full season worth of NFL football? The stud rookie RB out for the season? No OTA's and shortened camp?? And with all that, you expected an 8 & 8 season? IMHO, getting to 8 & 8 with all of that would be a tremendous accomplishment...
Now, doing so after starting 1 & 6? Losing your Free Agent QB for the majority of the season and being forced to play a 5th round QB from Fordham? Losing Dan Williams for the year? Playing the revolving door game at Right Tackle due to injuries to Keith and Bridges? Your only starter quality running back (Beanie) injured and playing the last half of the year at 80% at best? I would say getting to 8 & 8 after ALL of that is a tremendous coaching accomplishment, as well as a tremendous statement on the heart of this team!

 

[AzStevenCal]

Hypocrisy ?

Where ?

I thought this team should be 8-8 at the beginning of the year. They are on pace to be 8-8.

They are doing what is expect, and before that were under-achieving at a massive level.

Give kudos to the guy who is doing his job, and finally delivering the product that is expected ? Seriously ?

Sorry, this is a business. Praise go to those who pass expectations.

So basically you're not impressed with Whiz because you were way off-base with your preseason expectations?

Steve

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Meh... There is nothing in Whiz's tenure that can be/should be equated to cheating on your spouse..

I'll disagree. Last season as well as the first 7 games of this season I felt cheated. I felt that some of the decisions that this organization made were horrible and directly responsible for the poor play that we saw.

Whiz has been, by far, the most consistent coach this franchise has ever had.

I agree.

It's funny that you and others will harp on the galactical ineptitude of this franchise,

It can be downright comical at times, can't it?

and then condemn the coach that has taken this piss-poor franchise to a Super Bowl, back to back NFC Championship games, and potentially only ONE losing season in his first 5 years...

I have absolutely NO problem pointing out flaws, poor decisions, and poor play by anyone involved. That includes players, coaches, and management. I have no problem doing the opposite too. Whisenhunt gets my respect. He also gets my frustration. I don't see why those things have to be mutually exclusive. Can't you do both within a season?

If the franchise was as bad as you seem to believe it was (and nobody would argue that fact...), did you then expect to see a total 180 degree turn-around in the blink of an eye?? Turning this franchise around is greater than turning the Titanic... You don't go from the single worst franchise in NFL history, to consistent contender overnight... Layers and layers of dead skin need to be removed and it takes time.

He kinda did that though. He almost instantly made a positive effect on this team and changed the culture, or at least it seemed like it for the most part.

IMHO, Whiz's roll of the dice with Kolb is a huge moment in his career and sets up 2012 as "THE" year for Whiz. It is right to expect a post season birth in 2012. Anything short of that and yes, Whiz will have, for the first time in his head coaching career, underachieved.

Actually, I thought the huge moment in Whisenhunt's career was last year when he Warner retired, let Leinart go, and went with the scrubs he played last year. That's partly why he gets some of the flak he gets from me and others now.

But for now, sitting at 7 & 7 and still with a shot at the post season, Whiz deserves mad props and respect!

Absolutely.... and for me, tempered optimism.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

So basically you're not impressed with Whiz because you were way off-base with your preseason expectations?

Steve

Yes. Furthermore, are you talking about the whole team/organization or just Whiz ?

Ugh. This is getting stupid.

Have you or the rest of the "Are way or your an ******" brigade realize that I can care less if you think my expectations at the beginning of the year were "off-base" ?

Great that is your opinion.

My opinion was that this team should have been 8-8, and I have not wavered from that unless in the dregs of a seven game losing streak, when I thought they wouldn't win another game.

The opinion is the same now. I have listed why I am not about to give Whiz praise in an earlier post, and you are most welcome to go look for it and read it.

Thus, my opinion says at what it was, and what it is now.

If you still think it is "off-base" then that is up to you, and you are welcome to your opinion of the situation.

BTW - it wasn't so off base at the beginning of the year. But, you know hindsight is 20-20, and I always seem to have a problem telling the future.

Note #2 - This is almost exactly like the debate I had with K9 this offseason over Calais Campbell. I was very very disappointed with his play last year, and he kept asking what I expected. Well, what I expected is what showed up this year. Campbell has the ability to dominate, and for once, I was right in my assumption. Cause this year he is showing what he can do.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Seriously?? For a team that had the highest player turnover of any other NFL team? A new Defensive Coordinator? A new Free Agent QB who had yet to play a full season worth of NFL football? The stud rookie RB out for the season? No OTA's and shortened camp?? And with all that, you expected an 8 & 8 season? IMHO, getting to 8 & 8 with all of that would be a tremendous accomplishment...
Now, doing so after starting 1 & 6? Losing your Free Agent QB for the majority of the season and being forced to play a 5th round QB from Fordham? Losing Dan Williams for the year? Playing the revolving door game at Right Tackle due to injuries to Keith and Bridges? Your only starter quality running back (Beanie) injured and playing the last half of the year at 80% at best? I would say getting to 8 & 8 after ALL of that is a tremendous coaching accomplishment, as well as a tremendous statement on the heart of this team!

OK.

Sounds good. I can see why you would have the opinion. At least up to "consistent contender", we are a loooooong way from that, IMO.

My opinion is, a lot of teams go through those sort of challenges. Because it is the Cardinals it makes it different ?

Again, I had my expectations of this year, based on the talent. I agree there has been an improvement over this year, and especially as of late, but that is coming from a vastly improved defense, and some amazing special teams.

If you want me to blindly pacify you all, and just wave the flag I can do that, but I don't feel it is justified. Unless you are asking me to praise Whiz as a symbol of the entire organization, then I would have no problem. But, Whiz himself as the Head Coach, and psuedo-OC ? Nope. He gets a handshake, a pass out of the doghouse, and a good job.

Just except it. I am not telling you all that I am right, and I am not telling you all that you have to change your minds about something. Just stating an opinion. Call me what you want for it, trust me, I don't care. It is my opinion, and I will stay true to it. It is a differing opinion gentlemen, get a grip.

I don't forget last year, and the beginning of this year very easily. Plus how many Cardinals teams can you remember showing "Great promise" at the end of a football season to come back even worse than you would imagine ? Sorry. Not buying into "In Whiz I trust" just yet.

Sidenote: The fact Kolb goes down, and Skelton comes in and wins is one of the reasons I do not praise Whiz. Kolb going down was a blessing for this team, and the record shows that to be true, whether you agree with the logic I use or not. Whiz was FORCED to play Skelton, and was forced a second time to play Skelton. Both times Skelton has won, and continues to win. What does that say about Whiz's ability to judge QB talent, which has ALWAYS been suspect with Whiz. I don't see losing Kolb as a challenge, but some really good luck that went Whiz's way.

I don't see how losing Dan Williams has slowed down our defense in the least.

Tell me the difference between Keith's play, and Bridges play, cause I don't see the difference.

Just sayin'.

Finally, what is most important, it seems most are very happy with our team right now, and that is very cool.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yes.

Ugh. This is getting stupid.

Have you or the rest of the "Are way or your an ******" brigade realize that I can care less if you think my expectations at the beginning of the year were "off-base" ?

I don't think that everyone that disagrees with you is automatically a member of the "Are (our) way or your an ******* brigade?

My opinion was that this team should have been 8-8, and I have not wavered from that unless in the dregs of a seven game losing streak, when I thought they wouldn't win another game.

I understand you thought they were going to be a .500 team, I thought so too. After the losing streak, I was convinced we were going to win no more than 3 games total. We were both wrong, big deal, it happens. What I don't understand is why you draw a line in the sand because of your preseason expectations.

Why is it not just as valid to look at our 1 - 6 start and measure CKW's performance over the remaining schedule based on expectations at that point in the season? In the preseason you had very little information to base your expectations on but 7 games in, we all knew a lot more about this team. To me, it seems that even if you blame him for the path we took that led us to that horrible 23 game stretch, he deserves a lot of credit for righting the ship.

Most of us felt like strangling the coach when he would tell us after each loss that "the plays were there, we just didn't make them". IMO, it turns out he did know what he was talking about and most of us over-reactive fans were just that, over-reactive fans.

Steve

 

[RugbyMuffin]

To me, it seems that even if you blame him for the path we took that led us to that horrible 23 game stretch, he deserves a lot of credit for righting the ship.

And that is where we will have to agree to disagree. My reasons are clearly made out in an earlier post.




OT:
Yet, all that being said. I gotta change me signature from "Same Ol' Cardinals". It said I would if they beat the Browns.

Yet, this organization is going to have to prove things have changed, and they will not be able to do so with one event. Next season is the true test of whether this is the Same Ol' Cardinals or not., IMO

 

[AzStevenCal]

And that is where we will have to agree to disagree. My reasons are clearly made out in an earlier post.




OT:
Yet, all that being said. I gotta change me signature from "Same Ol' Cardinals". It said I would if they beat the Browns.

Yet, this organization is going to have to prove things have changed, and they will not be able to do so with one event. Next season is the true test of whether this is the Same Ol' Cardinals or not., IMO

I think we'll always be a bit of the "Same Ol' Cardinals" as long as Bill Bidwill owns the team and, to a lesser extent, as long as Rod Graves keeps his job. For me, that just raises my respect for Whiz and what he's accomplished. He didn't do this with the Pittsburgh organization behind him, he's done it while enmeshed within one of the worst organizations in pro sports.

Steve

 

[82CardsGrad]

OK.

Sounds good. I can see why you would have the opinion. At least up to "consistent contender", we are a loooooong way from that, IMO.

My opinion is, a lot of teams go through those sort of challenges. Because it is the Cardinals it makes it different ?

So, can you give me an example of another team/coach that had the highest player turnover of any other NFL team, new Defensive Coordinator, new Free Agent QB who had yet to play a full season worth of NFL football, a stud rookie RB out for the season, no OTA's, shortened camp, losing a CB that started the previous season (Toler), starting a season 1 & 6, losing your Free Agent QB for the majority of the season and being forced to play a 5th round QB from Fordham, losing Dan Williams for the year, playing the revolving door game at Right Tackle due to injuries to Keith and Bridges, your only starter quality running back (Beanie) injured and playing the last half of the year at 80% at best... That would be at 7 & 7 after week 15 and still in contention for a post season birth??

Again, I had my expectations of this year, based on the talent. I agree there has been an improvement over this year, and especially as of late, but that is coming from a vastly improved defense, and some amazing special teams.

The head coach leads the coaches who coach those units. The head coach is primarily responsible for the players that play on those units. And the head coach is responsible for the DC (Horton) being on this team. And finally, the head coach is singularly responsible for somehow keeping this team together after a 1 & 6 start.

If you want me to blindly pacify you all, and just wave the flag I can do that, but I don't feel it is justified. Unless you are asking me to praise Whiz as a symbol of the entire organization, then I would have no problem. But, Whiz himself as the Head Coach, and psuedo-OC ? Nope. He gets a handshake, a pass out of the doghouse, and a good job.

Now was that really too difficult to admit??

Just except it. I am not telling you all that I am right, and I am not telling you all that you have to change your minds about something. Just stating an opinion. Call me what you want for it, trust me, I don't care. It is my opinion, and I will stay true to it. It is a differing opinion gentlemen, get a grip.

Haven't called you anything buddy... just asking you to support your position...

I don't forget last year, and the beginning of this year very easily. Plus how many Cardinals teams can you remember showing "Great promise" at the end of a football season to come back even worse than you would imagine ? Sorry. Not buying into "In Whiz I trust" just yet.

"Great Promise"?? Dude - we had NO quarterback at the end of last season... our defense was a shambles. Where did you see "great promise"??

Sidenote: The fact Kolb goes down, and Skelton comes in and wins is one of the reasons I do not praise Whiz.

I know... why would the guy who drafted the guy who is now playing well deserve any praise..

Kolb going down was a blessing for this team, and the record shows that to be true, whether you agree with the logic I use or not. Whiz was FORCED to play Skelton, and was forced a second time to play Skelton. Both times Skelton has won, and continues to win. What does that say about Whiz's ability to judge QB talent, which has ALWAYS been suspect with Whiz.

Well, it shows me that Whiz was able to indentify something in an obscure QB from a minor football school in Fordham, when many other teams chose to lool away. It shows me that Whiz has been able to work with Skelton in such a way that, even though he hails from the minor leagues, he is now performing in such a way that is producing W's in the NFL.

I don't see how losing Dan Williams has slowed down our defense in the least.

Tell me the difference between Keith's play, and Bridges play, cause I don't see the difference.

You don't see how losing your starting DT who was playing very well, along with a revolving door at RT can cause a lack of consistency and take a unit out of rhythm?? Really?

 

[PACardsFan]

Look, this argument can go on and on and on. Bottom line, the Whiz haters who called for his head this season just can't stand the fact that they were wrong. Those of us that preached patience & support are RIGHT, the Whiz haters are WRONG. Get over it & let's move on. We have a team to root for this weekend!