Who Is The Best Team In The NFC??

[GatorAZ]

Cam not improving his footwork this far into his pro career is kinda alarming. It speaks to his talent that he's still really good despite it. I dunno why they haven't added a receiver yet.

 

[daves]

I'll take this a step further. Aside from throwing the ball downfield well, what else are the Cards known for? What else of consequence do we do well? I would say our running game, however, it's essentially a one-man show with CJ who avg'd less than 4 yards a carry yesterday against the worst run defense in the entire NFL...

What a strange criticism. Do you criticize the Patriots because of their lack of a running game? Is the Seahawks running game essentially a one-man show outside of Marshawn Lynch, who is averaging 3.6 yards per carry on the season? What about the Packers' running game?

Bottom line, the Cardinals have the #3 offense in yards per game, #2 in points per game, #1 by far in yards per play, #3 in passing yards per game, and #10 in rushing yards per game. That's a damned good, balanced offense. All this coupled with the #4 defense.

I expect those numbers to regress against a much tougher second half schedule, but up to this point, this has been one of the best offenses in the league. Without qualification.

...dbs

 

[daves]

Remember, this team is currently 3rd in offensive DVOA, 4th in defensive DVOA, and 21st in special teams DVOA. We're likely to regress toward the mean a little in all categories (due to injuries, wear and tear, more difficult opponents, etc., etc.) than to continue the momentum forward.

The Cardinals are likely to regress to the mean because the second half schedule gets a LOT tougher. But every team in the league has injuries and wear and tear.

...dbs

 

[daves]

So is there a category difference between the Cards and the Patriots, Packers, and Broncos? How can you be a legit title contender if you're not elite? Is every likely playoff team a "legit title contender"?

Why don't YOU provide us with YOUR definition of "legit title contender" - because you seem to be equating it to being "elite", and arguing against anyone who defines it otherwise. Both terms are vague but literally speaking, a "legit title contender" is a team that has a "legitimate" chance of competing for a title. Any team that is not a "legit title contender" does not have a legitimate chance to win the Super Bowl. Were the Cardinals a legit title contender in 2008-2009? Did they have a legitimate chance to win the Super Bowl that year? Are they as good this year as they were then?

I'm not sure what having a 2-time Coach of the Year has to do with the price of tea in China.

I'd say it means that the team has a better than average chance to make the most of the talent on the team, to devise good game plans, to make good in-game adjustments, to overcome injuries, etc. The same things that got Arians named coach of the year twice. The things that enabled him to win more games than most people expected in each of the last three years.

I think that's pretty obvious to anyone who doesn't just like to argue.

...dbs

 

[Jetstream Green]

What part of this team gets better over the next 8 weeks, and gets better enough to (1) offset the probable handful of injuries that are going to come over the next 8 weeks and (2) the improvement of opponents?

Remember, this team is currently 3rd in offensive DVOA, 4th in defensive DVOA, and 21st in special teams DVOA. We're likely to regress toward the mean a little in all categories (due to injuries, wear and tear, more difficult opponents, etc., etc.) than to continue the momentum forward.

I agree to an extent on the quality of opponents but as far as injuries, wear and tear etc... the other teams will have them too and not just the Cardinals

 

[Darkside]

Yes I do!!! Take the age out of the equation.

You do realize what Palmers record is the last 22 starts is right? And that's not counting a 10-6 year his 1st season. He's playing his best football right now!!!

Btw Scam is still an inconsistent QB & turnover machine.

Age is always in the equation, just like turnovers are. Palmer is having an exceptional season, as I said in another thread, it's almost magical, and I'm not sure I'd trade his 1 or 2 years now for any other player if we're going to make a run at it.

But Cam Newton is an exceptional player, and you don't seem to want to recognize that. He's young, athletic, talented, and gifted. When you say Carson Palmer is a better QB, I just don't see it. He's more traditionally gifted, and I'm fairly old by human standards (if we're talking certain microbes I'm just a baby) and so I respect what he's able to do, but when we're talking the modern age, give me a QB like Cam Newton man.

The only knock on Cam early on was that he pouted on the sidelines and that his body language wasn't good. Mental stuff. That was the only knock on him, immaturity. Look at him now dude. He has fewer weapons, by far, yet he displays an air of confidence and invincibility. He's throwing darts to crap receivers and lesser TE's in this league and winning.

I have a lot of respect for Cam Newton. I think it's really difficult in the NFL to do what he's been able to do on a limited offensive team. Put many other QB's on that team and see how they do, it's very difficult.

Cam Newton is badass, much more gifted than Palmer. That's just how it is.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Despite the love-fest on MNF, i absolutely don't buy that Newton is an above average passer. Career 59% completion rate (never reached 62% in a season) and 85 passer rating (never reached 90) is unequivocally below average. This season's version of Newton, with his lousy receiving corps, is completing passes at a 56% clip with a 78 passer rating.



...dbs

Not sure how you could watch the game last night and not feel that Newton is an above average passer. If he had anything close to our weapons, his stats would be significantly higher.

 

[82CardsGrad]

What a strange criticism. Do you criticize the Patriots because of their lack of a running game? Is the Seahawks running game essentially a one-man show outside of Marshawn Lynch, who is averaging 3.6 yards per carry on the season? What about the Packers' running game?



Bottom line, the Cardinals have the #3 offense in yards per game, #2 in points per game, #1 by far in yards per play, #3 in passing yards per game, and #10 in rushing yards per game. That's a damned good, balanced offense. All this coupled with the #4 defense.



I expect those numbers to regress against a much tougher second half schedule, but up to this point, this has been one of the best offenses in the league. Without qualification.



...dbs

Yea, you essentially restated my point. Thx! [emoji106]

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I'm really liking Daves postings in this thread.

 

[Lagerfilled]

Getting back to the original question... We are! That is all.

 

[daves]

Not sure how you could watch the game last night and not feel that Newton is an above average passer.

It was easy... i opened my eyes and observed Newton throwing a bunch of inaccurate passes (46% completion rate and 7.1 yards per attempt).

Granted, it was a terrible night to judge any QB's passing skills, considering the conditions and drops. And Luck was a lot worse for most of the game.

And i'm not criticizing him as a leader or an athlete or a runner.

But as for the claim that he's an "above average passer to boot", i'm not sure how you can possibly believe that, considering his entire body of work, which has included a terrible completion percentage, mediocre 3:2 TD:INT ratio, and utter failure to improve as a passer over 5 seasons (passer ratings of 85, 86, 89, 82, and 78).

If he had anything close to our weapons, his stats would be significantly higher.

Probably. Though he has played his entire career with Greg Olsen and, before this year, with either Steve Smith or Kelvin Benjamin. And he's always had a pretty good corps of running backs between Stewart, Williams, and Tolbert.

But in any case, the original comment about Newton being an "above average passer" was made in the context of him being a formidable opponent for the Cardinals this year. And this year, his weapons are what they are, barring a trade today. This year, as every year before, he is NOT an above-average passer. He IS a dangerous quarterback though... and Carolina is a formidable opponent. But not because of Newton's passing capabilities.

...dave

 

[Buckybird]

It was easy... i opened my eyes and observed Newton throwing a bunch of inaccurate passes (46% completion rate and 7.1 yards per attempt).

Granted, it was a terrible night to judge any QB's passing skills, considering the conditions and drops. And Luck was a lot worse for most of the game.

And i'm not criticizing him as a leader or an athlete or a runner.

But as for the claim that he's an "above average passer to boot", i'm not sure how you can possibly believe that, considering his entire body of work, which has included a terrible completion percentage, mediocre 3:2 TD:INT ratio, and utter failure to improve as a passer over 5 seasons (passer ratings of 85, 86, 89, 82, and 78).



Probably. Though he has played his entire career with Greg Olsen, up to this year, with either Steve Smith or Kelvin Benjamin. And he's always had a pretty good corps of running backs between Stewart, Williams, and Tolbert.

But in any case, the original comment about Newton being an "above average passer" was made in the context of him being a formidable opponent for the Cardinals this year. And this year, his weapons are what they are, barring a trade today. This year, as every year before, he is NOT an above-average passer. He IS a dangerous quarterback though... and Carolina is a formidable opponent. But not because of Newton's passing capabilities.

...dave

he's a turnover machine, fumbling & throwing INTs

He's a bigger Mike Vick

 

[82CardsGrad]

It was easy... i opened my eyes and observed Newton throwing a bunch of inaccurate passes (46% completion rate and 7.1 yards per attempt).

Granted, it was a terrible night to judge any QB's passing skills, considering the conditions and drops. And Luck was a lot worse for most of the game.

And i'm not criticizing him as a leader or an athlete or a runner.

But as for the claim that he's an "above average passer to boot", i'm not sure how you can possibly believe that, considering his entire body of work, which has included a terrible completion percentage, mediocre 3:2 TD:INT ratio, and utter failure to improve as a passer over 5 seasons (passer ratings of 85, 86, 89, 82, and 78).



Probably. Though he has played his entire career with Greg Olsen and, before this year, with either Steve Smith or Kelvin Benjamin. And he's always had a pretty good corps of running backs between Stewart, Williams, and Tolbert.

But in any case, the original comment about Newton being an "above average passer" was made in the context of him being a formidable opponent for the Cardinals this year. And this year, his weapons are what they are, barring a trade today. This year, as every year before, he is NOT an above-average passer. He IS a dangerous quarterback though... and Carolina is a formidable opponent. But not because of Newton's passing capabilities.

...dave

I disagree... He is a formidable opponent and a dangerous QB because of his athleticism, his development and overall football IQ, AND is ability to throw the ball - as the Seahawks would attest...

 

[82CardsGrad]

He's a bigger Mike Vick

Gross and inaccurate exaggeration...

 

[Russ Smith]

Despite the love-fest on MNF, i absolutely don't buy that Newton is an above average passer. Career 59% completion rate (never reached 62% in a season) and 85 passer rating (never reached 90) is unequivocally below average. This season's version of Newton, with his lousy receiving corps, is completing passes at a 56% clip with a 78 passer rating.

...dbs

He's not an efficient passer I agree. He locks onto the primary reads and if not open he looks to run.

But he's a very dangerous passer he's one of the rare running QB's that can in fact beat you with his arm too.

He's very unorthodox, but he's a great player IMO

 

[Buckybird]

Gross and inaccurate exaggeration...

We'll just have to disagree then. No biggie, but his stats speak for themselves.

 

[Russ Smith]

Age is always in the equation, just like turnovers are. Palmer is having an exceptional season, as I said in another thread, it's almost magical, and I'm not sure I'd trade his 1 or 2 years now for any other player if we're going to make a run at it.

But Cam Newton is an exceptional player, and you don't seem to want to recognize that. He's young, athletic, talented, and gifted. When you say Carson Palmer is a better QB, I just don't see it. He's more traditionally gifted, and I'm fairly old by human standards (if we're talking certain microbes I'm just a baby) and so I respect what he's able to do, but when we're talking the modern age, give me a QB like Cam Newton man.

The only knock on Cam early on was that he pouted on the sidelines and that his body language wasn't good. Mental stuff. That was the only knock on him, immaturity. Look at him now dude. He has fewer weapons, by far, yet he displays an air of confidence and invincibility. He's throwing darts to crap receivers and lesser TE's in this league and winning.

I have a lot of respect for Cam Newton. I think it's really difficult in the NFL to do what he's been able to do on a limited offensive team. Put many other QB's on that team and see how they do, it's very difficult.

Cam Newton is badass, much more gifted than Palmer. That's just how it is.

The one knock I have on him right now is I think to an extent the Wr situation is by design. They have injuries too but I think they were smart enough to realize he's not going to sit in the pocket and pick a defense apart if we go out and spend money and load up with really good Wr's. That's not his game, he goes off his first read and starts looking to run and then it's a pick up game and that's what he's best at.

So they are able to spend the money and picks on defense, the run game, the OL etc and they gave him a great TE and some WR's who can run(strong arm) or go get the high jumpball throws.

That is I think part of the reason they're not loaded at WR is they realize he wouldn't take full advantage of it if they were.

 

[Russ Smith]

I disagree... He is a formidable opponent and a dangerous QB because of his athleticism, his development and overall football IQ, AND is ability to throw the ball - as the Seahawks would attest...

I can't speak for Dave but I think it's the "above average" that he's objecting to and he's 100% right. The average passer in the NFL has a higher completion % than Newton, in that respect he's NOT above average.

is he better than the average passer of course, because ofhis legs he's much more dangerous. If he was playing without the ability to run it would be interesting because right now he "gets" to throw against defenses designed to stop him from running and make him throw, that's why he gets so many big plays downfield.

 

[Buckybird]

I can't speak for Dave but I think it's the "above average" that he's objecting to and he's 100% right. The average passer in the NFL has a higher completion % than Newton, in that respect he's NOT above average.

is he better than the average passer of course, because ofhis legs he's much more dangerous. If he was playing without the ability to run it would be interesting because right now he "gets" to throw against defenses designed to stop him from running and make him throw, that's why he gets so many big plays downfield.

Totally agree, which I think puts him puts him into a pretty darn good player but not a great NFL QB. I still think he's a bigger Vick but that's just my opinion.

 

[kerouac9]

Why don't YOU provide us with YOUR definition of "legit title contender" - because you seem to be equating it to being "elite", and arguing against anyone who defines it otherwise. Both terms are vague but literally speaking, a "legit title contender" is a team that has a "legitimate" chance of competing for a title. Any team that is not a "legit title contender" does not have a legitimate chance to win the Super Bowl. Were the Cardinals a legit title contender in 2008-2009? Did they have a legitimate chance to win the Super Bowl that year? Are they as good this year as they were then?

I believe I implicitly said that, to me, "Legit title contender" = "Elite team." A legit title contender has a maximum probability of qualifying for the Super Bowl. The Cards aren't there right now.

As for the 2008 Cardinals — no, they were not a "legit title contender" in Week 8. They probably weren't in Week 17. But they were fortunate not to have an elite team in the conference and found their way to the Super Bowl. I think that there's one elite team in the NFC in Green Bay and potentially another in Carolina (who is going to get better/healthier when Charles Johnson returns from IR Boomerang).

The example that makes more sense to me is actually the 2009 Cardinals who ran into a buzzsaw against an elite team in New Orleans.

 

[82CardsGrad]

I can't speak for Dave but I think it's the "above average" that he's objecting to and he's 100% right. The average passer in the NFL has a higher completion % than Newton, in that respect he's NOT above average.



is he better than the average passer of course, because ofhis legs he's much more dangerous. If he was playing without the ability to run it would be interesting because right now he "gets" to throw against defenses designed to stop him from running and make him throw, that's why he gets so many big plays downfield.

For the record, I by no means am suggesting that Newton is a great or elite QB. But, he has developed into a better than average QB who possesses enough smarts and physical gifts to present a serious threat to any defense.
As for his passing skills, I think his stats don't tell the full story and I believe he is a better than average passer, stats be damned... The win against Seattle showed this, and the throw he made last night when Ginn dropped it was made as he was falling backward and still, it was a 30 yard laser perfectly placed...

I also believe that because of his physical style and the way Carolina uses him, he won't be long-lived as a NFL QB.
The guy could easily be a TE in this league which you can't say about any other QB....he's that much of a physical freak.

 

[Bodha]

Carolina
AZ
Packers


AZ is the most talented, but inconsistent. Carolina has won games they should win, and thus are 7-0, whereas we lost 2 that we shouldve won (we should also be undefeated).

If Cam had more weapons, itd be a much clearer cut ranking. Carolina is a very good team, winning without much offensive weapons. Outstanding defense.

 

[BurqueCardFan]

Until we prove we can beat Seattle and the Rams for that matter, I'm not going to even put us at the top of the West just yet. I'm not sold on Carolina. I still think GB is a better team than the Panthers. We should be in the top 3-4 conversation.

 

[cardpa]

I guess we shall see just how good Cam is when they play Green Bay this Sunday. I see Newton as a slightly above average QB based on his ability to run. As a passer he is streaky. That is why his stats are what they are. I have to chuckle when people are saying he's a superior QB from a mental standpoint. When you are a one read and run QB that doesn't put you in the top tier on mental superiority. There are a bunch of college QBs who can do that. I predict Green Bay wins going away Sunday, at least a double digit win. Carolina's 7 game win streak ends Sunday.

 

[TJ]

Pimping Cam Newton as anything more than a good QB is a risky proposition. Here's why:

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