Why Plummer will succeed in Denver where Arizona failed him...

[Taco John]

I knew that "pay it forward" thing wouldn't take off... That doesn't mean that people didn't appreciate the gesture. I like to put the games on in the back ground while I'm working...

From what I've seen, Jake makes his fair share of mistakes... But the talent level around him isn't exactly inspiring... Jake played his ass off that second Seattle game, only to have his teammates invent new and interesting ways to screw things up all game long...

 

[Ryanwb]

Originally posted by Taco John
I knew that "pay it forward" thing wouldn't take off... That doesn't mean that people didn't appreciate the gesture. I like to put the games on in the back ground while I'm working...

From what I've seen, Jake makes his fair share of mistakes... But the talent level around him isn't exactly inspiring... Jake played his ass off that second Seattle game, only to have his teammates invent new and interesting ways to screw things up all game long...

Have you seen clips of the "pass" a behind the back, no look pass to Marcell Shipp? Face it, Jake could **** up a cup of coffee

 

[seesred]

I'm tired of the Plummer posts and news. Lets just see how he does when he has to do it. I hope he does well but could care less how is doing in camp. Heck he always looked good in camp.

GBR

 

[Redrage]

Maybe it's sour grapes but I don't want to see him do well. I put a lot of faith in the kid and he let me down. Period.

Question: when Jake throws behind Sharpe on a crossing route or skips a ball to Leile on a quick out will it be the "surrounding talent's fault?" That's what the Denver fans don't understand, it was when the pass protection was holdig up and he was counted on to make the routine throws when he was at his worst. I'm tired of hearing the Cards blamed for Jakes failures. All his talk about giving him a good running game is tantamount to "well, if he never has to throw the ball, he'll never lose the game for us."

 

[conraddobler]

I just watched the Laura Croft thingy and it reminded me of that Jake Plummer behind the back pass fiasco...

First of all the movie was awful... so that got me to thinking of awful things and that naturally turned to memories of Cardinal doom... what worse things are there?

Then since the movie sucked I began to muse over what type of guy would dump that woman and thats when utterly inexplicable bone headed things came to mind and presto.. I remembered the whole fleasnicker incident.......

Enjoy maybe you and shanny can tell war stories during your night shift at the Bell.

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
Taco John has over 13K posts on the Chiefs board alone.

I recommend that you have sex some time before your mid forties, Taco.

ROTFLMFAO!!!!

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Redrage
Maybe it's sour grapes but I don't want to see him do well. I put a lot of faith in the kid and he let me down. Period.

Question: when Jake throws behind Sharpe on a crossing route or skips a ball to Leile on a quick out will it be the "surrounding talent's fault?" That's what the Denver fans don't understand, it was when the pass protection was holdig up and he was counted on to make the routine throws when he was at his worst. I'm tired of hearing the Cards blamed for Jakes failures. All his talk about giving him a good running game is tantamount to "well, if he never has to throw the ball, he'll never lose the game for us."

Best post on the thread.

Denver fans will quickly realize that Jake has trouble making routine plays...

 

[Fiasco]

Holy cow! You're keeping score on every single insignificant point?

When your points are Pittman and a only three game tapes of Plummer in action what do you expect?

 

[cardzfan]

Why Plummer will not succeed

What Taco John failed to point out in his selective statistics is that teams know all they have to do is put 8 men in the box and stuff the run to beat a Plummer lead offense. Beat the stuffing out of Portis because you DO NOT have to respect Plummer. Put it ALL on Plummer and he fails. Thats what Taco Johns stats show us. I am glad we cleared this up.

 

[traveler49]

I've printed out your post. After game one at Cincinnati, when you haven't scored in the first half and the Bengals are the "surprise" half time leaders, I'll send your post back. Enjoy Beurlein, he's your baby.

 

[spanky]

Taco John,

You lost all credibility when you talked about Blake's inability to beat out Ferotte and/or Kitna.............

I'll have my "bookie' get ahold of yours and will lay down a bet for $100 that AZ ends up with a better record than your Broncos.......OK?

Don't get too far in love with "the better talent you have" to surround Jake with.............he's PROVEN to a lot of people that he can f**k up any team pretty quickly.

Your CFO likely hasn't yet gotten off the floor after signing the $7MM bonus check..........Plummer hasn't stopped laughing yet.

And seriously, Plummer can't throw a spiral downfield......he has a pathetic arm..............and he is TRUELY DUMB.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Originally posted by Taco John
Actually, I've got a few tapes... What I see is a guy trying to force things to players who don't have the talent to make it happen on the other end.

Sure the guy has made his share of mistakes... But it's the Cardinals... I mean... come on... It would be one thing if he was floundering on a franchise that actually tried to win every year and spent their cap allotment on that goal...

all right thats it taco. I was reading through the thread from the beginning and you had a least a marginal amount of respect until you said that.

we appreciate your input and I'm sorry that your team sucks. ok?

now bye bye

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Originally posted by Ryanwb
I saw every game Jake ever played, the Taco has seen 3.....he is not an elite quarterback. He has a weak arm, does not read defenses and ruins the running game.

This argument is really pointless.....the Cardinals fans are not sour on Jake, most of us like him (as a person) so why don't you take our word on it.

there you go ryan. tell it like it is.

taco,

I do not have a particular dislike for jake. But plummer was our favorite teams starting qb for 5 or 6 years straight (nobody will deny plummers durability), and the average cardinal fan has a lot of emotion invested in him.

a lot good fans (including me) defended plummer for the better part of his six year tenure. but the bottom line is that he failed us, and now you are here telling us that we made a mistake by giving up on him. That is the LAST thing that we want to hear.

of course we are going to say that jake sucks. its the only thing that lets us sleep at night. But, there is also a mountain of losses, bad statistics and personal, first hand observations of bad plays on the part of jake.

I wanted so badly for jake to succeed in arizona. and he gave it 110%. (nobody will deny his will to win). But game after game after game he would make bad... no, horrible plays. Sometimes jake did snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. but too many times the jaws of defeat feasted on the cardinals because of jake.

I'm not saying your "superior" rushing game wont help. But unless you can limit jake to about 10 throws a game (i.e. rush for about 275 per game) then you guys will not be playing football in january. I'm sorry man, thats just the way it is.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by DCCardsFan


I sent out all the tapes of the first nine games - actually, the guy who liked Plummer the best got the San Diego and Philly games, I believe. I know this is heresy, but besides the two devastating INTs, he played pretty well in the SD game. And we WERE one-dimensional.

That's sort of like saying Elizabeth Berkley's not such a bad actress if you discount the whole Showgirls thing.

The 2 plays in the San Diego game that caused them to win and us to lose were 2 balls Jake threw that got picked. One was admittedly a good play by Wiley, most DE's aren't good enough to do that, but again, jake never looked away he threw right where he was looking, and Wiley did what he did because they'd seen that on film.

The second play was just vintage brain lock, stare right where you want to throw it, with Edwards standing right there, and not see Edwards?

You take those 2 plays away, even if Jake gets sacked instead, and we PROBABLY win that game. You can't just subtract out the bad plays and say aside from that he played well, it's those bad plays the contributed to so many losses over the years.

In other words, if Brian Griese were our QB last year in that game, we would have won because he would not have made those mistakes. Neither play was the result of being under big pressure, or trying to make the big play, both balls were simply a guy throwing to a spot he never looked off and then being surprised there was a defender there.

 

[Krangodnzr]

He Russ, don't listen to DCCardsfan....remember, according to him, everyone on this board is a worthless homer.


And Jake singlehandedly lost the SD game. It is ridiculous to even try and say otherwise. 14 points off of Jake Plummer TOs.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
He Russ, don't listen to DCCardsfan....remember, according to him, everyone on this board is a worthless homer.

Another peculiar thing is he went over to BroncosFreak and tore apart Russ for arguing the Jake thing over there (as well as on other boards) but Taco John showing up is a direct result of DCCards being proactive and going elsewhere to pump up Jake...and offering to mail out game tapes.

Hmmm, not sure what that is I smell...hypocrisy?

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by AZCB34

Hmmm, not sure what that is I smell...hypocrisy?

IMO, the only worthless homers are the ones who can't realize that Jake was part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Even Jake fans like Tango, understood that Plummer was part of the problem.

 

[ajcardfan]

Originally posted by Fiasco
When your points are Pittman and a only three game tapes of Plummer in action what do you expect?

Generally, people who are getting their butts kicked don't like to see the score!

 

[DCCardsFan]

There's no hypocrisy here. I didn't know about broncosfreak.com until Russ had over 100 posts over there. How is what I'm doing different from Russ (besides the fact that I was being generous, and Russ was just being spiteful)?

I DID go over to orangemane.com and offer up those tapes.

So what? I never hid that fact, and I'm sure Russ knew about it before Taco John posted that fact here.

I only did it in furtherance of knowledge. Those guys over there are arguing Griese v. Plummer to death, even though they've never seen Plummer play. It's as stupid as talking about how great Boldin and Pace are going to be without ever seeing them play.

My personal belief is that Plummer will do very well in Denver. I have tapes, which I don't want anymore, and I sent them over there. It was an idea I had to test out the generosity and honesty of message-boarders, as well as get some good feedback from relatively unbiased observers (diehard Cards fans are far from unbiased).

Why are you people such freakin Nazis? Are you TRYING to discourage every reasonable person from being a Cardinals' fan?

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by DCCardsFan

Why are you people such freakin Nazis? Are you TRYING to discourage every reasonable person from being a Cardinals' fan?

Nice generalization.

And nice choice of words....you couldn't pick a term that is a little less offensive?

To call all of us worthless homers, turned me against you. I used to enjoy your posts, but you went completely overboard with those comments. You haven't apologized and admitted that you were wrong, so I don't feel bad at all for letting everyone know what you said at ever opportunity.

 

[Wild Card]

Originally posted by Taco John
No... It's not hard to believe that Mike Shanahan knows more about coaching than anyone in the Cardinals organization...

TJ:

You mean, after he's tried--and failed--to replace John Elway with Bubby Brister, Steve Beuerlein and Brian Griese? Yeah, I can see why you have such faith in Shanahan's ability to identify and develop QB talent. You better hope he's right about Plummer; after all, since Elway retired, the Broncos have won the same number of playoff games as the Cardinals. (That's zero, for those of you keeping score at home.)

Know how long it's been since Denver won a playoff game, without Elway behind center? 1977. Twenty-six years ago. (That'd be the season that Red Miller's 12-2 team rode the #3 Orange Crush defense to the Super Bowl, where the Cowboys blew 'em away 27-10.) Wonder if it'll be another quarter-century before you win one again?

Good luck with the Cards' castoff, John. Maybe Shanahan got it right, this time.

Or not.

WC

 

[DCCardsFan]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
IMO, the only worthless homers are the ones who can't realize that Jake was part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Even Jake fans like Tango, understood that Plummer was part of the problem.

Every player on the team was part of the problem. I wouldn't argue with that.

By the end of October, I was agreeing that Plummer needed to be gone, and WOULD be gone.

That doesn't necessarily mean he didn't do well in his situation when he was here, however.

Larger problems facing the Cardinals for the past 4 years or so are a lack of a defense (specifically pass rush), a cheap owner, no 12th man support at home, injuries, as well as a perception amongst NFL players that you do not want to go to Arizona unless they it's for a big paycheck.

It seems some of that is improving. Further signs of goodwill would be Bidwill giving out free merchandise/tickets to players, as well as many other fringe benefits that would make players feel special. Getting 60,000 mostly Cardinals fans to games wouldn't hurt.

The biggest myth on this board is that Jake Plummer has played defenses over the years that played 8 and 9 man fronts to stop the run because other teams didn't respect our passing game. This is horsepoop. The perception from the opposing teams, whether or not they were right, was that they needed to stop the Boston/Plummer connection more than anything else. We had no running game for years. And you expect me, a person who actually breaks down tape and NEVER SAW the SAFETIES COMING TO THE LINE EXPECT TO BLITZ THE QB, to believe that other teams were focusing on our running game and daring Plummer to beat them downfield?

If there were 8 or 9 man fronts, tell me where! I have many games on tape (before last year's games), and will gladly review them. Show me ONE PLAY where other teams had safeties inching up into the box to stop the run. I still haven't heard of a single play.

We got two deep zones for years. Last year, when our running attack started coming around and our receivers got hurt, teams started stacking the box and playing our WRs with man coverage. That was the first time since '98 that other teams have been more worried about our running attack. And you can't blame them, when our starting receivers were a rookie and a guy off of waivers.

 

[ajcardfan]

Originally posted by DCCardsFan
There's no hypocrisy here.

I agree. You are being a straight-up jerk.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by DCCardsFan
There's no hypocrisy here. I didn't know about broncosfreak.com until Russ had over 100 posts over there. How is what I'm doing different from Russ (besides the fact that I was being generous, and Russ was just being spiteful)?

I DID go over to orangemane.com and offer up those tapes.

So what? I never hid that fact, and I'm sure Russ knew about it before Taco John posted that fact here.

I only did it in furtherance of knowledge. Those guys over there are arguing Griese v. Plummer to death, even though they've never seen Plummer play. It's as stupid as talking about how great Boldin and Pace are going to be without ever seeing them play.

My personal belief is that Plummer will do very well in Denver. I have tapes, which I don't want anymore, and I sent them over there. It was an idea I had to test out the generosity and honesty of message-boarders, as well as get some good feedback from relatively unbiased observers (diehard Cards fans are far from unbiased).

Why are you people such freakin Nazis? Are you TRYING to discourage every reasonable person from being a Cardinals' fan?

Lets not turn this into a personal attack I leave for vacation tomorrow and have no interest in stirring up crap here and leaving it for everyone else to read.

We don't agree on Jake, we probably never will. as I put in my other post, I don't care if Jake does well in Denver or not, my interest is the Cardinals, and my belief is he would NEVER do well here and had to go.

The reason I went to the Freak board, which I have posted there repeatedly, is I find it naive and frankly insulting for people to keep claiming that the Broncos coaches know more about Jake than the Cards coaches do. And for Bronco fans to insist they know more about him than Cards fans do. I did it over there for a reason, because I didn't want to disrupt THIS board because I know most people here are sick and tired of it and I respect that.

Playboy picked the Broncos to win the SuperBowl, they called Jake "supremely talented but frequently clueless" but then say that Shanahan will teach him how to win the way he transformed Elway and Steve Young. Classic example of why I went to that board in the first place.

I've said this to you and to others on this board, I don't dislike you, I do respect your opinions(you have said repeatedly you don't respect me or my opinions) and I fully realize we're never going to agree. I went over there specifically because people here are fed up with discussing Jake. I know most threads about Jake here wind up huge and I intentionally chose to debate on that board for that reason. I didn't hide there, I even posted here that I was there.

Hope everyone has a great week, after today I'll be gone until the 11th fishing in Baja.

 

[DCCardsFan]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
Nice generalization.

And nice choice of words....you couldn't pick a term that is a little less offensive?

To call all of us worthless homers, turned me against you. I used to enjoy your posts, but you went completely overboard with those comments. You haven't apologized and admitted that you were wrong, so I don't feel bad at all for letting everyone know what you said at ever opportunity.

I told you the truth, Krang, and you chose not to believe it. I will not apologize, because I think there are too many posts talking about how great our new players are going to be, with no evidence to back it up. The expectations are getting set too high, and when the players don't live up to them, everybody's going to call them busts. It's the same old cycle.

I did write that the "people on [arizonasportsfans] are a bunch of worthless homers." I explained to you and anybody else listening that it was a mere generalization, and was probably too harsh. I explained that there were LOTS of people over here who I like to read, and that many aren't homers. I explained that this is BY FAR the best site for Cardinals' news, and without this, I wouldn't get any real insight into training camp and other developments.

To the extent that you truly believe that I consider each and every person on this board a "homer" and "worthless", I apologize. However, I do think that the atmosphere is too homerish, and I know what's going to happen in three months if this team doesn't perform: SCAPEGOATS. And chances are, I will be at least partially sticking up for those players scapegoated, because usually there's more wrong with a bad team than merely a couple players.