Wide Receivers are Frustrated

[JeffGollin]

The biggest bad pass of the day was when LF was wide open flying down the right line and Josh over threw the ball.,
Actually, the worst pass he threw was when he tried to throw sidearm off his back foot late in the game with no receiver in sight (except for a Giant DB who almost came up with the pick).

Play calling was pretty conservative. I don't know how to put it clearly but sometime the sequence can get "backwards." By this I mean, you're thinking: "Cross 'em up with a pass on second down and then run the draw on third down (or whatever) only they reverse the sequence and the series goes nowhere.

Wierdest sequence was with 9:13 left in the game (when you'd like to see us sustain a drive and drain some time off the clock). Instead, we threw incomplete three straight times and used up a grand total of 0:15 seconds.

 

[Russ Smith]

The important thing to remember is that our offense does not Turn the ball over and keeps us in the games. If JM stays consistant and doesn't turn the ball over costing us games he is just as good or better than King under center. It was a fun game to be at after the 1st qt and a half. LOUD! WE rocked the joint! GO Cards....paste the Panthers!

That's the part about Josh I have no complaints with, he had a fumble and a should have been picked ball but overall he has protected the ball MUCH better the last few games since Atlanta.

I said for years when people were excusing Jake's picks as him trying to make plays, if he'd just take more sacks or throw the ball away when nothing is there, the team wouldn't get blown out nearly as often. I think Josh is proving that again this year, the defense is MUCH better, but part of it is we're not always defending short fields after turnovers. Blake turned it over too much last year and we saw the same old Cards, Josh isn't turning it over nearly as much and we're in games.

now he's just got to start making some big plays and then we can be a really pain in the butt team to play the rest of the year.

 

[Russ Smith]

Wierdest sequence was with 9:13 left in the game (when you'd like to see us sustain a drive and drain some time off the clock). Instead, we threw incomplete three straight times and used up a grand total of 0:15 seconds.[/COLOR]

That was a bit frightening but I kind of suspect the plays thrown and what was supposed to happen weren't the same thing. I'm pretty sure Green said we have reasonable field position(32 yard line), they're playing run(last drive had 4 Hambrick runs and an incomplete pass before the punt) and we can get a big play. First and second down Josh missed guys but the balls weren't really going to be big plays anyways, I get the impression he took the short option because of pressure. Then on 3rd down Fitz is running free for a huge gain possibly a TD and Josh flat misses him by a mile. I think again as others said Fitz was SO open it surprised Josh, I think the big plays were called on 1st and 2nd down not 3rd and he wasn't at all expecting Larry to open up like that.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Great pic! I watched that play on the highlights when I got home and man did McCown ever take a blow to the head. But he did lay that DB out!

I'll say one thing for McCown, he is physically tough. He's a big, tough kid with speed and you have to love those attributes, but he has to learn how to slide feet first if he wants to stick around for anything other than a few seasons.

On the post game show McCown says he will never slide when getting the first down is in doubt. He owes too much to the team, the organization, and the fans not to get every single inch he is capable of getting. He said some guys don't want the hit but he will take it because he can.

 

[Rats]

The problem is he's not consistent. One play he looks great, the next he scare the bejeezus out of you with an awful throw.

What has Josh done that most other QBs in the league--including King--cannot?

I say King probably can't run as well (but McCown hasn't been doing much of that anyway). But, King can most certainly make all the passes McCown is being asked to throw and he can probably throw them better.

I appreciate that MCown hasn't thrown a lot of picks (but even some of that is dumb luck--he's thrown some passes that certainly deserved to be picked). But he's not doing anything special to help us win. Maybe King won't either--but we won't know until we find out. I don't think king could be a step back for us.

Some of what you say is right on but King could not have made the throw to Fitz against Miami and he will not become a Three of 4 year starter the way JM could if he finds his consistancy in the passing game. He is not doing anything special to help us win? See scramble against Miami. We also converted along 3rd and 11 yesterday with a 16 yard completion that lead to a Td...so somethings are working. We as fans want gaudy numbers from our top pick WRs and there are several reasons we aren't getting them JM included. THe QB always gets to much credit for winning and to much for losses. The thing that is nice is this becoming a team and our wins are because of the Team not individuals like QB or RB. Everyone is contributing and lets keep it rolling in Carolina. The stadium rocked yesterday!

 

[pete]

On the post game show McCown says he will never slide when getting the first down is in doubt. He owes too much to the team, the organization, and the fans not to get every single inch he is capable of getting. He said some guys don't want the hit but he will take it because he can.

That is a great attitude to have. Maybe the Cards should move him to fullback and get a QB who can get the ball into the hands of Boldin and Fitzgerald.

 

[john h]

Overthrowing Fitzgerald on that one play late in the game really was why it's frustrating with McCown in there right now.

I like the kid, he plays with heart and guts, but he's got to get on target with throws or we need someone who can.

Mike

You could sure see it in Fitz's face and body language. He was p------off.

 

[WildBB]

That is a great attitude to have. Maybe the Cards should move him to fullback and get a QB who can get the ball into the hands of Boldin and Fitzgerald.

For their talent they're definately being underused. Alot of that is the D pressure the Cards face on passing downs - on every passing situation. The still have alot of 2nd and long - 3rd and long situations, They;re not good enough yet to overcome those very often.

Solution: Pass early and often - in the down sequences. Take what they give.

Wolfley said he liked the 3 wide, 1 TE, 1 RB set - it opens it up or you can run - whatever the D shows. Call a running play or audible to pass if they're (D) giving it.

 

[john h]

I read the gameday thread this morning (talk about your long threads) and someone in there said that the NY radio guys were saying "McCown looks down one WR on every play" or something like that, got posted 2-3 times so I assume they were saying it. Then several guys posted that Pasch said McCown was tipping run plays by patting his butt on the left or right depending on which side we were going to run to. Gotta admit I didn't notice it and I was watching early after the talk he was tipping the snap against Buffalo.

I do think that there's something to that staring down in that it makes it much easier on the defense to figure out where the ball is going, and makes it much harder on the WR's when they're not the guy he's looking at since they may be open.

I do agree there is frustration at WR you could see it on Quan's face on that ball in the endzone where Josh threw a bullet instead of lofting it and letting Quan outjump the 3-4 in shorter man, you could just see it on Quan's face that he was mad first at no call for PI, and second that the ball wasn't thrown up higher.

Great win but I'm with others, we can't keep expecting to win with 90 yard passing days we're going to have to step it up there soon.

God it's great to be 4-5 though, I really got scared when it looked like we jumped on that last GIants play, got back but you never know if they're going to call it or not.

Some say enjoy the victory and do not be critical of Josh. I think the more we win the more critical we become of Josh because we think we are only a couple of players away from being a playoff contender. We won this game not because of Josh but because he did not turn the ball over among other things. We will not win many games throwing for only 90 yds. Our defense played lights out in the second half and the OL made enough holes for Smith to score two TD's. Wilson, Berry,Dansby,Dockett, Steponovich,Big these are the guys that won this game. McCown was there is about all I can say. We look for some big improvement each week but it is just not happening. I will give some kudos to our playcalling for a change. The coach came out passing
which was a needed change. We have a really good DC who impresses me more each week. He may be the best thing Dennis has done for this team. Our receivers are definitely getting frustrated. Our coaches at least tried to get the ball down field for a change. Those 5 yd dinks were going no where but we still only had 90 yds passing. if you have a killer running game you might be able to make the playoffs with a 90 yd passer but you will never do any better than making the playoffs. We clearly need another QB for the future of this team.

How about Manning throwing for five more TD's. I think he now has 26 for the season. People are starting to say he may be the best QB ever and I am starting to believe it. He seems to be able to see, analyize, and do everything. The Bus ran for another 100 yds + and Ben continues winning. When I am not watching the Cards I switch over just ot watch Manning.

 

[Pariah]

He is not doing anything special to help us win? See scramble against Miami. We also converted along 3rd and 11 yesterday with a 16 yard completion that lead to a Td...so somethings are working. We as fans want gaudy numbers from our top pick WRs and there are several reasons we aren't getting them JM included.

I've acknowledged that McCown is a good scrambler--better than most QBs (he should do it more, IMO--I was never one to complain that he ran too much). But, maybe those 3 good plays he made in Miami (the scramble, the long pass and the TD toss) wouln't have been so critical if he could have played even average the other 58 minutes of the contest.

I really hope josh can become the starter you envision he will. I just don't see much chance of it. I don't know why you think King can't be a 3-4 year starter. He was in Tampa, wasn't he? Don't get me wrong, I'm not completely enamored with king, either. I just think he's better than McCown.

Josh is doing some things right, but I don't see he getting more accurate. If anything, I think he's regressing in that area. It worries me that we're leaning too hard on a very young defense. We won't get into the playoffs if we can't count on 175 yards from the QB on a regular basis. I don't need to see
"gaudy" numbers--just NFL numbers.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Anyone else get this? I'm surprised the papers didn't pick it up. I have to say, though, that the honesty from Josh is refreshing.

you know what happens when non-funny people try to come off as comedians? They look like complete and utter a-holes.

Sheesh K9 - you know - I used to defend you - but after a couple wins - I haven't even seen ONE positive post about anything as far as this team is concerned and the above is just inflammatory childish crap (and not even remotely funny).

 

[Russ Smith]

How about Manning throwing for five more TD's. I think he now has 26 for the season. People are starting to say he may be the best QB ever and I am starting to believe it. He seems to be able to see, analyize, and do everything. The Bus ran for another 100 yds + and Ben continues winning. When I am not watching the Cards I switch over just ot watch Manning.

31, Salisbury said today Manning is playing better than any QB in history. I'd say he's on a par with Marino's record year and Warner's 99 season.

I'm not a huge Josh fan by any definition, but at least he's not throwing games away.

He's gotta open it up soon or I gotta believe Green will make a move.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Manning is definitely a machine and has been for the last couple years, but he's gonna have to win more playoff games and ultiamtely the big win before he gets mentioned amongst the all-time greats. Last year was a good step int he right direction for him, but he's still got a long way to go to reach football immortality IMO.

 

[Pariah]

He's gotta open it up soon or I gotta believe Green will make a move.

I think he tried to open it up yesterday. They threw downfield a lot (relatively so). He just couldn't hit the receivers.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think he tried to open it up yesterday. They threw downfield a lot (relatively so). He just couldn't hit the receivers.

Sorry I meant Josh, not Green, I agree we went downfield repeatedly, just didn't hit them. Throwing the ball deep will only get respect from a defense that thinks you can hit it, as the game wore on the Giants were moving safeties UP, not back because we weren't hitting it. Pretty sure that's how Fitz got so open on that 3rd down pass, I think the Giants figured we were going to run a draw or a straight handoff and that's why Fitz was so open.

 

[john h]

The biggest penalty of the game came on a long Josh pass on the left side that ended in a first and goal because of holding . That was all Josh. It doesn't show in the stats but he made that happen. Wide outs were pretty much covered. On top of all this for the most part Josh had less than 3 sec to get a pass away. Some of our offense or lack of belongs to Josh, but for the most part it belongs to the O-line. They appear to open some holes for the backs, but give little or no time in pass blocking.

The biggest bad pass of the day was when LF was wide open flying down the right line and Josh over threw the ball., On that pass Josh had plenty of time. I would suggest when he saw Larry open he was shocked, then he looked around and no one was near him double shock, so he let it fly! There was at least two dropped passes and Fred Jones has to get open for this whole thing to happen. I like Josh and don't think any of our current QB's can do it any better with as much upside. When we scored in the third quarter Josh was the most excioted guy on the field you could see his enthusasim from any place in Sun Devil!

GBR
40

Beat Carolina

I am not measuring Josh against our current QB's (although I have no idea how they might perform). I am measuring him against what I perceivie as what we need to be a contender. He has thrown few TD's and has missed a lot open receivers. Worse yet he has not seen them. His statistics and from what I see I do not think he measures up to what is required from a playoff contender. I do not care who ultimately replaces him but continue to think he is no long term answer at QB. Contrary to my past thinking I now think we are better than last year however I think this comes primarly from our defense and our defensive coach.

 

[kerouac9]

you know what happens when non-funny people try to come off as comedians? They look like complete and utter a-holes.

Sheesh K9 - you know - I used to defend you - but after a couple wins - I haven't even seen ONE positive post about anything as far as this team is concerned and the above is just inflammatory childish crap (and not even remotely funny).

You're right. It wasn't funny. I did have good things to say about Fitz last week, and I know you read them. That's part of why I'm so frustrated about Josh's performance yesterday.

I'm actually really, really excited about where this team is going. I was thinking about writing an article for front page consideration. Denny Green has made me a believer. This team is good enough, and the rest of the NFC is bad enough, for the 2004 Arizona Cardinals to be a playoff team. I believe that now. Firmly. The D is good enough to keep you in games. The O is just all right. The running game is solid enough for now. I think that we have a special WR corps. The kind that gets national writers excited. The kind that they sell posters of.

The one thing that I still don't believe in is Josh McCown. He doesn't lead WRs, unless it's into safeties (which he did at least twice yesterday), he can't throw the quick pass to the outside for gains (which is a trademark of Denny's offense--the Vikes still run it four times a game). It was nice to see him take some chances downfield, but none of the balls were remotely catchable.

The Jake Plummer Experiment (along with Shawn King, Aaron Brooks, Quincy Carter, etc.) has shown that a team can make the playoffs with the most mediocre of quarterbacks. I'd be happy with a Wild Card berth this year. Ecstatic. But McCown isn't progressing. By Week 12, he'll have 16 career starts, and people will have to stop saying that he's a "rookie." If he hasn't shown himself to be adequate as more than a caretaker who isn't going to kill you (and that's all--he's not even consistent at getting the chains moved--WITH THESE WRS CATCHING PASSES FOR HIM!!!), we're going to have to go in another direction next season. Hopefully, it'll be the David Garrard direction, because this team is too close to being competitive to burn a draft pick on a quarterback.

 

[conraddobler]

31, Salisbury said today Manning is playing better than any QB in history. I'd say he's on a par with Marino's record year and Warner's 99 season.

I'm not a huge Josh fan by any definition, but at least he's not throwing games away.

He's gotta open it up soon or I gotta believe Green will make a move.

Cardinals win,

I think Green will give Josh all year much to the consternation of a few but that's what I think.

Now next year that could be interesting and Josh is liable to just wake up in a new city or farm of he dosen't start lighting it up this year.

 

[john h]

Well neither of those TD runs were gimmes, he's had maybe 1-2 walk in TD's all year. When he gets close he just has a knack for getting in, always has had it.

I think this OL is pretty good run blocking, I think the problem is pass blocking and now we're seeing teams stacking the line a bit more often to force us to pass. Emmitt has been terrific but there's no question his lack of speed has hurt us at times. He had 2-3 runs again yesterday where he had a hole or made a guy miss but got caught behind by a DL or LB who didn't really have an angle. If we had a RB with some speed we could really break some long runs when they have the line stacked and Big and Wells blow off the ball, they all seem to be to the left.

I think the OL was very much a part of those TD's Smith scored. The line definitely surged forward. Josh was sacked once? and the Giants QB about 6 or more times. Who had the better OL for pass protection yesterday?

 

[Rats]

I really hope josh can become the starter you envision he will. I just don't see much chance of it. I don't know why you think King can't be a 3-4 year starter. He was in Tampa, wasn't he? Don't get me wrong, I'm not completely enamored with king, either. I just think he's better than McCown.


This gets thrown around alot on the board but for the record Shaun King started one complete season in Tampa in 2000. He threw for 2700 yards and 18 tds to 13 int. He never started again in Tampa. He had a 54% pass completion ratio( thats something to write home about) He is a back up in this league. Many think that JM is a backup in this league also But he is the best option on our team at QB. King is not better than MCcown IMO. W ith him it might be more of the same with more INT that cost us chances to win games.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You're right. It wasn't funny. I did have good things to say about Fitz last week, and I know you read them. That's part of why I'm so frustrated about Josh's performance yesterday.

I'm actually really, really excited about where this team is going. I was thinking about writing an article for front page consideration. Denny Green has made me a believer. This team is good enough, and the rest of the NFC is bad enough, for the 2004 Arizona Cardinals to be a playoff team. I believe that now. Firmly. The D is good enough to keep you in games. The O is just all right. The running game is solid enough for now. I think that we have a special WR corps. The kind that gets national writers excited. The kind that they sell posters of.

The one thing that I still don't believe in is Josh McCown. He doesn't lead WRs, unless it's into safeties (which he did at least twice yesterday), he can't throw the quick pass to the outside for gains (which is a trademark of Denny's offense--the Vikes still run it four times a game). It was nice to see him take some chances downfield, but none of the balls were remotely catchable.

The Jake Plummer Experiment (along with Shawn King, Aaron Brooks, Quincy Carter, etc.) has shown that a team can make the playoffs with the most mediocre of quarterbacks. I'd be happy with a Wild Card berth this year. Ecstatic. But McCown isn't progressing. By Week 12, he'll have 16 career starts, and people will have to stop saying that he's a "rookie." If he hasn't shown himself to be adequate as more than a caretaker who isn't going to kill you (and that's all--he's not even consistent at getting the chains moved--WITH THESE WRS CATCHING PASSES FOR HIM!!!), we're going to have to go in another direction next season. Hopefully, it'll be the David Garrard direction, because this team is too close to being competitive to burn a draft pick on a quarterback.

I'm with you for ther most part and I overstepped - you did credit to Fitz last week - it was just a little too early for sarcasm from me and I jumped on you.

It's pretty amazing what Green has been able to do with this team within half a season. I can somewhat (very slim somewhat) understand what Green is trying to do with Josh, but I can't tell you how much I'd love to see ANYONE else back there for at least a game to see what the true limitations or lack thereof there are on our offense. Josh was just brutal yesterday and he did have time - but I'll give him credit for the first down where he got crushed - that was a big play, but it's hradly something to really hold your hat on.

I keep hoping that somehow, someway it will just click at some point, but I ain't holding my breath. I still expect us to somehow split the next two games and then beat both Detroit and Frisco to have us improbably at 7-6 with the Rams at home - that game will decide if we get to the playoffs or not.

 

[cardsunsfan]

This thread is too long to read it right now but the people who say Josh's best play was the long interference play that happened might be right but he really through the ball out of bounds in the Endzone. If nobody was covering him I doubt any of our receivers could have caught that one. I think it was a lucky play...

 

[Stout]

I'll tell you what...even though he wasn't quite hitting the guys on the deep passes early, I liked McCown's play all the way up through the midpoint in the third quarter. He was poised under pressure, for the most part, and though he didn't do nearly enough, he showed progress toward it. Of course, he didn't have a very good time of it the rest of the game but, to me, he's earned a bit more time. Mark THAT down, anyone who says ad nauseum that I just hate the kid and wish him to fail.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Hopefully, it'll be the David Garrard direction, because this team is too close to being competitive to burn a draft pick on a quarterback.

Didn't we have Jeff Blake last year? I don't think Garrard's a free agent after 2004 anyways so if we did want him we'd end up burning a draft pick anyways although I really doubt Jax is in any hurry to so with Leftwich showing signs of being very injury-prone. I think Skkorp had it right when he said that if McCown fails we'll draft a QB and start King next year while the rook learns.

 

[Russ Smith]

Didn't we have Jeff Blake last year? I don't think Garrard's a free agent after 2004 anyways so if we did want him we'd end up burning a draft pick anyways although I really doubt Jax is in any hurry to so with Leftwich showing signs of being very injury-prone. I think Skkorp had it right when he said that if McCown fails we'll draft a QB and start King next year while the rook learns.

ESPN says he has one year left on his rookie deal. He's got some talent for sure but I'm not sure they're convinced a knee injury means Leftwich is injury prone.